Posted by kathy/ca on 5/26/07 10:55am
Msg #192169

ID process: getting a lot of docs lately that dont match ID.

When applying for a loan or doing a refi, does the lender do any research or ask to see ID or do they just take the word of the applicant that they are "mr and mrs so and so". Same thing applies to a suffex, if they are a Jr or "the 111" on the documents, why is it that suffex isn't always on their ID? Just what is the process of identlifying the applicant before they get to us?
Have a great Memorial Day weekend ya'all and love to our troops!

Reply by Sharon Taylor on 5/26/07 11:10am
Msg #192174

Loan Officers don't check names

If a prospect says his name is Joey Jones, for example, the loan officer assumes that is the person's name. And that is the name that is passed on to the people working on docs. When you get to the table and discover the person's name is really John Joseph Jones, and he's been called "Joey" as a nickname all his life, and he uses "Joey" on everything except his DL and SS card, then it's a PITA. Often I find here that borrowers took title on their warranty Deed with nicknames! Elizabeth Susan Jones might have used "Lizzy Jones" or "Beth Jones" or "Susan Jones" or "Betty Jones" or some variant when buying the property, whoever did the Warranty Deed on the purchase didn't care what the person's legal name was, and so the title is in the name of a legally-nonexistent person. Sometimes if it's caught in time, the lender and title company will add a QuitClaim Deed to the package so the rest of the docs can use the legal name, but if it's not caught in time, it's a hassle since the L.O. doesn't care - he just wants the d...m papers signed so he can get his commission, and most everyone else down the line just wants the d...m papers signed so they can get their share of the closing costs, so the notary is pressured to just ignore the mismatched names and told falsely that the "AKA Statement will take care of any difference in the names on the ID and the names on the documents".

Reply by LisaWI on 5/26/07 11:33am
Msg #192181

Re: Loan Officers don't check names and neither do......

most real estate agents. Experience from working in a Real Estate office. The real estate papers are signed as they want to sign them, the paper work goes to the local title company where they probably dont check ID's for legal name and so starts the process of a name that is different on the loan docs to the ID. And for Wisconsin, we do not have to have a notary journal so I would probably be safe to quess even if the ID is given to a closing agent at closing, they glance at it, and give back to the borrower not even thinking twice of the name variation.

Reply by kathy/ca on 5/26/07 11:43am
Msg #192182

Another ID issue that comes up is a suffix. Some say that if

there is a suffix (the 111, jr) on the documents but NOT on the ID, as long as the signature, physical description, address and picture all match they are comfortable notarizing but just because the person in front of you has an ID that is obviously theirs, dont that mean for sure they are the same person who applied for the loan, or maybe I am missing something here, ya think?
Love to our troops! Yesterday I had a signing at Camp Pendleton which I often do. I always take goodies and give to the military men at the gate. They are always so grateful and pleased. Such a little thing to do but it makes my heart feel SO good. Now when they see me coming they know what to expect. I always bake cookies and brownies the night before I know I am going there. Those soldiers are the best!!!

Reply by LkArrowhd/CA on 5/26/07 12:39pm
Msg #192188

Re:Kathy an outstanding gesture on your part for all our

BRAVE MILITARY-MANY THANKS TO OUR BRAVE WOMEN AND MEN ALL OVER...YOU ARE THE BEST!

Reply by Gerry_VT on 5/26/07 12:46pm
Msg #192189

Re: Another ID issue that comes up is a suffix. Some say that if

The issue isn't so much whether the person in front of us applied for the loan; it seems unlikely a person would apply for a loan and someone else would intercept the paperwork and impersonate the borrower. The real issue is whether the property owner is the person who is in front of us. The first two steps are the title company's problem: figure out who the owner really is, and putting that person's name on the paperwork. The last step is our problem: figuring out of the name on the paperwork is the name of the person in front of us.

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/26/07 1:06pm
Msg #192193

Gerry, I have given up on this sinking in...

The XYZ says the sky is falling and the notary MUST be the policeman who matches the ID to the loan documents perfectly. Failing that, it must be FRAUD? A redraw is needed? The lender doesn't know what they are doing?

More like the notary doesn't know what they are supposed to be doing, IMHO.

I feel that if you cannot complete a loan signing because you don't believe the person is the right person when they have presented statory ID then you need to call the authorities and let them know that a fraud is taking place. It's a white/black situation. Right person/wrong person. White (sign them up) or it's black (a crime is taking place). It's not about whether or not the ID matches the documents perfectly >to suit the notary< right down to the suffix, prefix, middle initial, etc.

I recently read an obituary that says, "Common Sense" is dead. I mourn it.

Reply by LisaWI on 5/26/07 2:16pm
Msg #192201

Re: Gerry, I have given up on this sinking in...Brenda

I quess Im not comprehending what your saying. Example with signing lastnight. Quit claim deed with signer signing the document as "Jane Loe Doe", but ID says Jane L Doe. Are you saying I should of written in my acknowledgement the "Loe" taking into consideration she was indeed the person sitting in front of me? It isnt a case of fraud, but are we not supposed to use their ID as the basis for the certificate. Or am I totally misunderstanding what you are saying?

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/26/07 3:29pm
Msg #192214

Re: Gerry, I have given up on this sinking in...Lisa

I am not going to crawfish on this. Yes, I would fill in the ID with Loe in it if I was satisfied that the quitclaim deed was being signed by the correct person who was vested in on title. I would also have the information recorded in my journal with which I used to make that identification.

My driver's license says Brenda S. Stone, but when I sold a house a few years ago it was in the name of Brenda S. Oldlastname. I had no ID which had Brenda Oldlastname on it and no one even asked me for it. Of course, the notary had my current information which was in her journal. If I was a fraud she could dang sure have me arrested based on the information she had on me. Now, this new law in Texas about not recording DL information is going to cause a little extra work for the Texas notary. I think I need to ask the SOS if it would be wrong to capture the information in a journal which is to protect the notary's business and not the official notary journal.

When I did my earlier land transaction mentioned above I was with a notary who was experienced in real estate transactions and her notary powers/duties so she knew that me representing myself as Brenda S. Oldlastname was my responsbility...holding myself out Oldlastname was my act, not hers. She took down my id and she notarized my *signature* and had to put a bit of weight into my representation of who I was.

====Reference====
From the Texas Young Lawyers' Assn and from a retired legal counsel to the Secretary of State/Notary Division...

http://www.notarys.org/handbook.htm
POWERS AND DUTIES

The primary duty of a Notary Public is to show that a disinterested party (the Notary Public) has admonished the signer of an instrument as to the importance of such document, and the signer of such document has declared that his identity, his signature and his reasons for signing such instrument are genuine. The signature and seal of a Notary Public does not prove these facts conclusively, but does provide prima facie (sufficient) proof of them, and allows persons in trade and commerce to rely upon the truth and veracity of the Notary Public as a third party who has no personal interest in the transaction.

=======

When the signer appears before us there has to be a degree of understanding that they are telling us the truth about our identity. If you don't believe them after looking at their ID enough to write in the full middle name rather than just an initial, then I feel it should be reported as 100% fraud.

Back in the day...notaries worked in positions where they were with someone who taught them a little bit about the law and real estate transactions. NSAs have filled a good purpose but they have learned to work backwards and they try to notarize documents, not signatures of people who have appeared before them.

This is all my opinion and should not be construed as legal advice. I'll continue to operate this way and I do have and have had access to escrow officers and givers of genuine legal opinions which have given me zero belief that I operate incorrectly.

Reply by Gerry_VT on 5/26/07 12:06pm
Msg #192184

Re: Not really the loan officer's fault

It's up to the property owner to get the name right on the deed when first buying the property, and then to keep the same name on any ID obtained after the property is bought, or follow the appropriate name change procedure if the owner wants to change his/her name. By the time someone is getting a 2nd mortgage or refinancing, it's too late for a nice quick solution.

That said, most states don't give a blow-by-blow explanation about how close the name on the ID and the document must be for the notary to proceed. In the absence of advice from the state, one might look at a book on the subject, such as Edward Bander's 1973 book "Change of Name and Law of Names". On page 34-35 he wrote the following:

"In another lawsuit involving a deed, this time in the state of Montana, the court recognized the identity of a person whose first name was given as 'Saml.' in a deed to him, and as 'Samuel' in a deed from him to another. The court pointed out that it is sufficient to describe a person by any known and accepted abbreviation of his Christian name, and there are certain standard abbreviations, derivations, and nicknames for the more common Christian names which have long been recognized by the courts as being interchangeable with the person's full name."

Bander does not give any example of a court refusing to recognize a nickname in place of a full name.

Reply by JK/TX on 5/26/07 11:26am
Msg #192179

In my experience, they work off the 1003, contract (ha ha) and title commitment (which shows the borrower's name as submitted to title by lender/broker.... just amazing!!..............I had one closing that the spelling was really off, called the lender/investor and he said "I guess we need to start requiring a copy of their i.d's for underwriting" "ya think!?... for soooo many reasons" ......I have also had to contact brokers for a driver license number to weed out possibly judgments and they didn't/don't get copies of the borrower's driver license..... and how many times does the borrower's signature match the signature on their driver license? My signature has changed so much over the years, I don't think I could even make my signature match my i.d.

Reply by Pat/IL on 5/26/07 2:34pm
Msg #192206

"and title commitment (which shows the borrower's name as submitted to title by lender/broker"

JK/TX, are you saying that the vesting on the title commitment is provided by the broker?

Reply by JK/TX on 5/26/07 4:39pm
Msg #192221

not the vesting/record owner, that section of the t commit should show same as on the deed/vesting documents/examination by title examiner.... right or wrong, it is what it is..... and if the applicant's/borrower's name (ex. borrower for refi) submitted to title is spelled different then this should be noted on schedule C of the title commitment by the title examiner along with other title issues

Title office enters new loan info on the title commitment, new loan info received from broker/lender iincluding the Borrower's name. ....... if borrowers name on commitment request from lender is spelled different than record owner... title and broker/lender need to communicate. .... title will not have proof of the correct spelling, but will have proof of how title is vested. Who and what is incorrect needs to be addressed, get it fixed before it goes beyond the point of no return........ communicate and verify....

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/26/07 6:28pm
Msg #192228

JK/TX - I appreciate reading your posts. Good stuff. n/m

Reply by JK/TX on 5/26/07 11:17pm
Msg #192241

Re: BRENDA/TX....

thanks... too real huh?.... i've been reading yours too ..... you have a great insight.... I can tell you have been taking a beating a while too:O) Texas laws are so ambiguous for notaries..... .especially when it comes to I.D.s....comprendo?..... GOTTA love our legislators ... and that's what i tell anyone that whines about what i need and cannot do.... and home eq loans...such a sore topic for me.... i think maybe... the next time they meet in austin demo's should go to okla., again and the repub's should go to mex maybe...it is the opposite direction (?) Did you see now (not sure if it was made a law) the borrower has to confirm they saw the 1003 along w/their fees one day prior to closing? Do you know if that was passed?

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/27/07 7:10am
Msg #192259

Re: BRENDA/TX....

Your insight is great also!

**Did you see now (not sure if it was made a law) the borrower has to confirm they saw the 1003 along w/their fees one day prior to closing? Do you know if that was passed?**

I am clueless as to what you are talking about on this one. I have been seeing documents in packages for a year now off and on which was for this purpose. It makes sense now why those would be in there.

You don't have to answer here but I am guessing on your location to be the DFW area? It's saturated with mobile notaries up there.

In fact, Texas is very saturated with mobile notaries in many places. In the podunk East Texas towns where this biz is hardly a big booming business there are scads of them.

In DFW the notaries are willing to drive from Ft. Worth to Weatherford for $45. In Sugar Land, yes...100 miles away from me, there is an notary who will travel to College Station for $75-$100. I don't intend to compete with that.

When you see notaries who will travel that far for so little, that's when you know you have a problem. I have had notaries call me and just chat about what they are getting. When I cough up a lung over the $45 they will travel 40-50 miles they say they are scared to charge more because there is so much competition.

AND, not only that there's so much competition for a market without HARDLY ANY mobile notary business in it. Rev morts are about all I fool with any more. I work directly for title and know that my check will be there in a few days.

A nice SS owner called me on Friday morning looking for a closer that evening. He said, "the other two in your area are busy." I already had a Friday pm closing and even though I think this guy is nice, believe me, I was not going to jump through hoops for him when he had already obviously called the other two people first. It would have been 10 pm before I got through that night...and, I think he would have choked on the price...though he is a nice guy and all.

Got a call from Fox Signing on Friday, then in my email. I emailed and reported back to them that NR reported slow pay for them...that I would do it on Saturday for them if they would pay me $xxx up front by paypal.com. Never heard another word.

JK, call me this weekend or email me if you'd like. Since you are in the title biz I can definitely understand why you might want to keep your ID a secret...so it's okay if you don't, too!

BrendaTx

Reply by JK/TX on 5/27/07 1:47pm
Msg #192279

Re: BRENDA/TX....DEAR SS, please allow me to pay you......

OMG..... notaries accept that fee?.... because they are afraid of loosing the assignment? they are loosing just by accepting. I WILL NOT pay a company to allow me to do their work and that is exactly what they are doing!!

I have many thoughts on the process of notary assignments but it would be unfair to post them. To be perfectly honest, if I had a pkg I needed to send out and the notary quoted $50..... I would say "I'll have to get that approved and call you back" ;O) That fee tells me they do not know what they are doing. I don't mean to sound ugly but that's the honest truth, I just would not trust their judgment. As you know, some of these loan pkgs are full docs that need to be notarized, one lender in particular amazes me, I counted what I could charge just for the notary fee only,,,, you know,,,, that $6.00 the state allows?, well that pkg added up to over $100. in notary fees, a refi! oh well, it helps on self-employ. taxes.

I had a good April (for me anyway). I have to turn down numerous calls because I'm evening and weekends only...others, they ask my fee and say "I'll have to get that approved and call you back" :O) May, now it has sucked, but we still have next week for the short pay loans!

I have not done an assigment for Fox, not sure if I'm registered w/them will check and will post a warning to myself. What about Premier Signing Services? I did a closing for them 4/27 and loan was to fund in May. I need to call. I don't have their payment terms (dummy me) like I thought I did. I try to keep up w/what you guys post in the way of SS's not paying but I don't recall Premier..... anybody?

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/27/07 2:18pm
Msg #192281

JK - see Msg #186005...

I did a search on Premier Signing.

What are short pay loans?

Reply by Pat/IL on 5/27/07 1:47am
Msg #192247

Looks like you Texans are using your own commitment form. The standard here in Illinois is the ALTA form, which has no schedule C. The way it is handled here (at least at my company) is that Schedule B - Section 1 requires a properly executed mortgage made by: (owner's name as vested in Schedule A). We make no reference as to the name as submitted by the broker or LO.

I would be interested to know if other states use their own prescribed form for commitments and policies. I had thought that the ALTA form was pretty much universal.

In Illinois, the deeds are generally drawn up by attorneys. I have purchased two homes and have never been consulted by the attorney as to the proper spelling of my or my wife's name. Nor did either advise us or seek to find out our preference as to tenancy/survivorship options. I think that if the parties preparing the deeds for the sale of the property took some care, this would not be such a big concern among so many in the business.

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/27/07 6:50am
Msg #192256

**I think that if the parties preparing the deeds for the sale of the property took some care, this would not be such a big concern among so many in the business.**

I totally agree, Pat, but from the particular view I see things day to day preparing documents,
The suspicion of loan fraud is not the premise that all this happens under so what matches the ID is not of so much concern. The suspicion of loan fraud, IMHO, has been created by the XYZ for the purpose of selling books and laser pens to paranoid notaries who are taking all the responsibility for loan fraud onto themselves.

Loan fraud does happen, but it doesn't turn on Jr. v. Sr., or John D. Doe vs. John Doe. Not seeing a Jr. where it ought to be does not mean that loan fraud has run amok. It means that guy got sick of being call Junior.

Using the 1003 to check age on application vs. age on DL seems to be a practical way to determine if Jr. / Sr. is the right person in front of you. (This is signing agent wisdom, not notary wisdom.)

And, just from the notary's safety standpoint...if I suspected that a person in front of me was a fraud about to commit a huge financial crime I am going to sign them up and make them think it's all okay with me. Thereafter, I'll call the authorities and cancel my notarization post signing. I am not going to prank around with a criminal IF I truly think it is a criminal.

I see it as black/white. They are the right person, or they aren't. If they are, I sign. If they aren't I still sign and then cancel my notarizations and call the authorities.

Here's why I think many notaries are just using the ID factor as a means to gain a little control over the signing process...if they are truly afraid of loan fraud, why aren't they afraid for their own safety from serious criminals???

I realize this is not a popular opinion, but....

Reply by Brenda Stone on 5/27/07 7:17am
Msg #192260

**I see it as black/white. They are the right person, or they aren't. If they are, I sign. If they aren't I still sign and then cancel my notarizations and call the authorities. **

I said the above as if I had run into loan fraud...it was theoretically speaking. Just wanted to be clear.

The other thing...How would I "cancel" my notarization? I don't know and don't worry about it. What I will be worried about is being safe and appearing to go along with whatever I need to so that I can get away from a criminal trying to commit loan fraud. A job is not worth risking my safety to a person who could just dispose of me and claim I never arrived, send another notary, IF THEY WERE A CRIMINAL they would not be afraid to do that, you know.

Reply by JK/TX on 5/27/07 12:23pm
Msg #192273

PAT/IL: getting a lot of docs lately that dont match ID.

Yes, we are in our own little world here :O) TLTA

your descrip sounds like our title policy. Our title commitment has a schedule A, B, C & D. Sch A shows legal description of property, record owner info and purchase/lending info is added for the pending transaction. Schedule B shows exceptions to the pending policy such as easements, building lines, restrictions, items that run w/the land. Schedule C shows items and clouds that need to be cleared prior to closing/insuring the transaction, such as mortgage liens, divorce issues, judgments, bankruptcies, state and federal liens, missing deeds, etc. Schedule D discloses info regarding the underwriter and estimated title policy premiums and splits.

once the transaction closes then the policy issued consisting of schedule a & b as you mentioned.

The lender's attorney normally draws the deed for the purchase and I'm guessing they work from the loan application for the Grantee info.....? Title's atty sometimes draws the deed and usually always draws correction deeds if needed along w/any other curative docs required to keep the chain going, i.e. missing deeds, affidavit of heirship, etc.






**** DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT AN ATTORNEY AND THIS POST IS NOT GIVING LEGAL ADVISE ***

Reply by Teresa/FL on 5/26/07 12:07pm
Msg #192185

I had a signing last night where the borrower's first name on the docs was "Junior." Even though I checked the county property tax appraiser's site to confirm that is how his name was shown on title and it matched, I was relieved to see his drivers license matched.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 5/26/07 12:56pm
Msg #192191

Re: In all the RESPA signings I've done I've had to

get a photocopy of the borrower's ID - so the Lender knows what the ID reads - now bring that in line with title vesting is "horse of a different color"!!

Reply by LJ on 5/26/07 1:26pm
Msg #192195

Re: In all the RESPA signings I've done I've had to

I had a situation last night also. ID showed middle initials on both and "Jr" behind the mans name. He said it was his legal name. Also showed me his birth certificate naming him jr. There was a Quit Claim Deed in the pkg removing the middle initials and the jr from his name. He did not want that done. Jr is part of his legal name. Called Title and they said just don't have them sign the QCD. The borrowers were upset that this happened. They also showed me the mortgage from a re-fi a couple years ago. They were vested on the Mortgage with the middle initials and jr. What gives title now the right to change their legal names without their knowledge? I honeslty think that title made a mistake (and won't admit it) on the vesting so just stuck a QCD in there to hopefully fix it. The borrowers didn't fall for it and I'm glad. The borrowers also would not sign unless they used thier entire correct legal names on all docs no matter how they were typed in. I just used the rule, more not less. This entire loan was a mess including the SS that hired me. Doubt that I will ever work for them again. Waited 3 hours for docs, then another hour for HUD. Everytime I called them I added 10 bucks. We'll see if they pay it. I threatened not to do it without a new confirmation showing my increased fee. It was midnight before I got home from this one. Thank goodness the borrowers were such nice people. Enjoyed meeting them. Makes it worthwhile.

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/27/07 8:27am
Msg #192267

Re: In all the RESPA signings I've done I've had to

** We'll see if they pay it. I threatened not to do it without a new confirmation showing my increased fee.**

I bet they don't if you only threatened.

Reply by JK/TX on 5/26/07 1:32pm
Msg #192197

Re: In all the RESPA signings I've done I've had to

Yes, I once had a closing and the seller was really pushing to close quick (flash)..... long story short, the seller was the son on the owner, ,, same first middle and last name, no jr or sr. Saving grace? The owner (father) had owned the property for many years,, the son, he would have had to purchase the property when he was 11 years old, no that won't work, not even in Texas The excuse, well.... that's another story in itself. The end, transaction did close eventually w/certified copies of death certificates (a birth certificate, no doubt) and w/2 heirship affidavits filed in front of the deed.

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/27/07 8:24am
Msg #192266

I love this post about father/son "fraud" JK...

** same first middle and last name, no jr or sr. Saving grace? The owner (father) had owned the property for many years,, the son, he would have had to purchase the property when he was 11 years old, no that won't work, not even in Texas..**

1-The "fraud" was undeterminable by merely looking at IDs...even the most anal ID checking notary could not have determined this! Thank you for making this point.

2-The problem was caught by title when they looked at the chain and when seller acquired property vs. TDL age? Am I correct?

3-And, in the final analysis, the real crime was possibly clouding the title because the affidavits of heirship must have proved that the property could be conveyed by the son?

I so appreciate this story because I feel the XYZ has beat the notary to death with propaganda which makes them feel so involved in stopping "fraud" that they have become paranoid, and rightly so, about r.e. transactions and loans.

The notary forgets when they are hired by a title company that title company is INSURING title to either the buyer or they lender. The notary isn't...it's hardly feasible that a title company is going to lose their shirt by expecting the notary to do ALL the due diligence.

Welcome to NR!

Reply by JK/TX on 5/27/07 2:01pm
Msg #192280

Re: I love this post about father/son "fraud" JK...

1,2 & 3........... you got it!