Posted by jag/wa on 5/22/07 2:09pm
Msg #191346

"Don't analyze...Just notarize" Think about this



Msg thread:191015

For those who think that the Jr. is not that important.
Well it is.
Your birth certificate is issued with your name on it.
That is your legal name for life. When your father dies it is still your name.
Jr. is not a less is ok or more the better rule of thumb.
AKA statements are not a name change fix; you have to go thought a legal process to do that. AKA are for credit only in the loan process.


I had a signing in a very affluent neighborhood.
Guard at gate, gate at the driveway.
Nothing in the house, pictures (which he was in a few) or the dog leads me to believe this guy did not own the house.
Doc’s drawn in John Q Doe Jr. Id in John Q Doe.
Dl was a resent renewed, no big deal with a different address again no big deal. Ask him if he had a passport or military id with Jr on it.
His response was of course no, what’s the big deal my father passed several years ago and I haven’t use Jr in years.
Called my contact and was told to use the AKA. I said that’s fine, he still will have to sign with out Jr. This means he has to cross out and initial all doc’s
Put on hold for 10 minutes, back with “No, lender will not accept”.
Informed John Q Doe that he has to get his dl reinstated with Jr. or a redraw with out Jr. up to the lender.
With that being said he started to get a little agitated.
I explained to him that it is illegal for me to notarize him with out the Jr on a current state or federal issued id. John Q Doe and John Q Doe Jr. are two different people/names. And I wasn’t going to put my self in danger of loosing my commission.
Now a neighbor and the guard at the gate come in to this.
About a week later the real John Q Doe Jr. comes home from being out of town for a few months
Conversation with a neighbor comes around to “hope you got a better appraisal on your property than we did”.
Guard at gate had date and time and residence and my license plate number.
Get a call: “Can you identify the person you met as John Q Doe”.
I said yes and so can you he is in some of the pictures on your china hutch.
A few days later he called back to thank me for doing my job and not compromising my integrity.
He went on to explain that his son who is a III was trying to refi his home with a huge cash out. If it wasn’t for me he would have been able to get away with it.
He and his wife haven’t decided if they are going to press charges, they are having a real hard time with this. But he did state that had this loan gone though it would have been disastrous for him and his family.
This happened to me last month so please don’t let any one tell you what to do when it comes to properly executing your seal.

It is too easy for people to drop the Jr. All you have to do is tell the clerk at the dot that you just don’t want it there any more.
To get it back you have to prove you’re a Jr. with a birth certificate and a social security card.

Reply by Gerry_VT on 5/22/07 2:43pm
Msg #191350

The post by jag makes the perfectly valid point that if two people have the same first, middle, and last name, there is an opportunity for one to impersonate the other. That still does not make junior a legal part of someone's name. I still have never seen any law that says so. I understand that some, but not all, birth certificates of males with the same name as their fathers indicate the Jr. suffix; it is not clear to me if this is part of the legal name, or just a description. Even if it is part of the legal name, I believe a male is entilted to drop it upon the death of the father.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 5/22/07 2:48pm
Msg #191351

" Even if it is part of the legal name, I believe a male is entilted to drop it upon the death of the father." - respectfully disagree - can't just drop it, at least not without going through the proper channels. Just because Sr. is deceased does not revoke the Jr. status. IMO

Reply by Gerry_VT on 5/22/07 2:55pm
Msg #191354

This has come up before, and as far as I know, no forum participant has ever found any law or regulation in any state that settles the matter for certain. I believe it is not my place, as a notary, to invent hurdles for signers to jump over when I cannot prove the requirement really exists. Of course, if I have any information to suggest that one relative is actually trying to impersonate another relative, that's a horse of a different color.

Reply by Chris_NJ on 5/22/07 10:46pm
Msg #191496

This is probably a little OT, but, I know in my state, this is not really covered. When you have a son, and you now decide that you are a senior, how do you show paperwork for that? That I know of, there is no 'proper way to change your paperwork' I'd be interested in your experiences if you are familiar with NJ law. Thanks for all that respond.

Reply by PaulK on 5/22/07 2:56pm
Msg #191355

I am a Jr. Father has been deceased since I was 3 years old. I have never thought about nor would I ever drop. It is part of who I am. What my parents gave me, and I feel that it is part of my legal name since it is on my birth certificate SS Card.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 5/22/07 2:58pm
Msg #191357

IMO that's the key - it's on your birth certificate and your social security card - the Jr. wasn't just assumed at some time after birth.

Reply by Gerry_VT on 5/22/07 3:14pm
Msg #191364

I absolutely agree that PaulK can keep the jr. suffix throughout his life if he wants to. I, as a notary, won't attempt to impose that custom on those who don't want to observe it unless/until I discover a law that says I have to. PaulK wrote "I feel that it is part of my legal name since it is on my birth certificate SS Card. " If anyone asks what my legal name is, I'll respond that I don't have one, because neither my birth state nor the state where I live has any law that defines what my legal name is. I just have some documents that prove I'm entitled to use certain names.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 5/22/07 8:21pm
Msg #191459

John Doe and John Doe, Jr. cannot possibly be the same person, by any stretch of the imagination. Given the discrepancy between ID and docs, how can you know if the father has died and the son has decided to drop the "Jr." part of his name? Even with a death certificate for the father, how can you know whether the son has the right to make this transaction? Is this something a notary should be deciding?

NY is extremely liberal as far as ID is concerned, but if I'm faced with a "Jr." on the ID and not on the docs - or vice versa - I'm taking a pass and letting the lender decide what to do.

Everyone is free to make their own decision on how to handle this, but I strongly suggest that simple logic should prevail - and failing that, your E&O should be up to date....

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/22/07 2:58pm
Msg #191356

Your story doesn't wash with me, jag

(1) You point is well made, but this could apply to father/son with name: John Gray Smith and John Gary Smith. Each of them have DLs with John G. Smith. Vesting is John G. Smith.

(2) You state: **Now a neighbor and the guard at the gate come in to this. About a week later the real John Q Doe Jr. comes home from being out of town for a few months Conversation with a neighbor comes around to “hope you got a better appraisal on your property than we did”. **

No reason for this to take place. Neighbors couldn't get near the appraiser. Remember...there's a gated driveway and all.

(3) Also...where was "wife" to sign the NB Spouse documents? You mentioned there was one--"He and his wife haven’t decided if they are going to press charges,..." So you would have had to have a Fake Wife with Fake Junior. You forgot to cover that hole in your story.

Sorry, but I don't believe your story as it is told.

It's not personal because I don't even know who you are...you story just sounds unreal.

Reply by SueW/Tn on 5/22/07 3:52pm
Msg #191373

Hey Bren...~waving~

I too don't have a clue if this story is true or not. I do know this, 4 months ago I had a signing with Joe Blow Blow who's son, Joe Blew Blow had pulled an amazing scam on him and it wasn't picked up until creditors began serving Pop. Docs were for Joe B. Blow and he wouldn't sign, TC tried to "encourage" him but he told them on the phone "I specifically told you I need my entire middle name spelled out in order to prevent problems with my son". He wouldn't trust AKA, nada...zipola. Docs were redrawn, I was recalled AND I got paid for both appointments. Every crook has a mom and a dad, what they don't have is a conscious.

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/22/07 4:04pm
Msg #191377

Re: Hey Bren...~waving~Hey back...

Well...as a matter of fact a notary friend told me of this actually happening with the son trying to pull it off with mom and dad was dead. Now, I understand that this kind of thing happens...but it doesn't happen just because of Jr. and Sr.

jag's story just sounds farfetched to me because of the gated community, the guard, the appraisal, and the unmentioned pretend wife whose wrong ID would have put a stop to the whole pile of nonsense.

Reply by jag/wa on 5/22/07 7:04pm
Msg #191421

Re: here is the answers

(1) You point is well made, but this could apply to father/son with name: John Gray Smith and John Gary Smith. Each of them have DLs with John G. Smith. Vesting is John G. Smith.

Answer: The doc’s were not drawn on John Gray Smith they were drawn on John Gray Smith Jr. If John G. Smith showed up and doc’s drawn on John G. Smith how would any one know. This was a Jr issue

(2) You state: **Now a neighbor and the guard at the gate come in to this. About a week later the real John Q Doe Jr. comes home from being out of town for a few months Conversation with a neighbor comes around to “hope you got a better appraisal on your property than we did”. *
No reason for this to take place. Neighbors couldn't get near the appraiser. Remember...there's a gated driveway and all.

Answer: Guard at gate stops everyone who are not residents and asked who they are going to see and notes license plate number, date and time.
Can’t really answer how or why the neighbor knew.
Could it be that he observed the appraiser when he was doing his walk about. The property had a boat house and landing. If I just got an appraisal done I think I would know what one looked like. Maybe it was the same one that did his. I do not know nor did I ask. The neighbors comment got this whole thing started. He did say he checked the gate log and called both me and the appraiser. How he got my phone number I do not know, I guess is should have asked.

(3) Also...where was "wife" to sign the NB Spouse documents? You mentioned there was one--"He and his wife haven’t decided if they are going to press charges,..." So you would have had to have a Fake Wife with Fake Junior. You forgot to cover that hole in your story.

Answer: Sorry I didn’t make the point ….As his separate estate
Did not have issue with that. Do at few a week with “separate” vestment
I also can not swear if the dog was fake or not. But he seemed to know the son and was right at home. Can I state for a fact that it was his dog or the owner of the house no... I didn’t ask the dog.

Sorry, but I don't believe your story as it is told.

Answer: It was just an quick overview of what happened.
The point of sharing was the Jr on doc’s but not on his id and what happed to me.
When a name/spelling of a name is used to vest in a home/property or any other legally binding adventure and some one can not produce legal identification with the correct spelling/name to matches the document signature**** It is illegal for me to notarize.
******After all isn’t that what we do?*******

It's not personal because I don't even know who you are...you story just sounds unreal.

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/22/07 7:44pm
Msg #191437

Re: here is the answers

*If John G. Smith showed up and doc’s drawn on John G. Smith how would any one know. *

I understand...my point was not very well made. The point was that just the opposite of yours...that this same exact scenario could happen without the Jr. to hang your hat on so you have to use a little common sense.

Also, where was the III suffix for Jr.? That wasn't on the DL apparently just like jr.'s can be left off of his. My dad is a jr. and it is not on his DL. You also have to apply a bit of common sense in every signing appointment. What I mean is Dad (Jr.) was at least 15-25 years older than III, right? You're looking at the 1003 and you are that concerned about the Jr. and you don't notice that? Not likely.

As far as separate property...why would wife be considering filing charges? Of course that could just be an accidental mention of the wife. However, it's rare even on separate property that the wife would not have to sign off pro forma on her homestead. Somewhere in that package if it was drawn up by a lender or attorney with half a brain (IMHO) there would be a QCD, or a waiver, or something to verify she had no interest in that property, or she'd be signing off on the DoT.

In cases of separate property the Deed of Trust still has to have the wife sign off in Texas. And in pre-nup cases (in Tx) there are Warranty Deeds to complete the transaction if the two of them are living in the house...and if they have ever lived on the property if it is now an investment property wifey needs to sign or execute a Warranty Deed conveying all her interest, if any, back to the husband.

Further, in support of that theory about the wife...if a borrower refis here and there is an adult child and spouse living in the property with (or without) the borrower, adult child and spouse are going to be required to execute the DoT pro forma if the lender is aware of the same. In fact, if two husbands are partners and getting a business loan on property they own through a partnership or other entity which does not involve the spouses the spouses will be required to sign the DoT and to sign non-homestead/homestead affidavits.

Just giving my thoughts on this and why I don't buy your story. But, hey, if you say it's true, then of course it is. I just find it hard to believe. Stranger things have happened, I am sure.

Reply by jag/wa on 5/23/07 2:08am
Msg #191512

Re: here is the answers


Brenda I'm sorry but this is so silly...trying to stay polite.
First off.... I don’t care what the 1003 states; I'm not putting my seal on it. In the state of Washington we can’t use the 1003 to identify a person. So common sense doesn’t play.
Texas maybe but not here.
We are however a community property state.
At the time there was no wife sitting there. And I wasn’t going to ask the dog.
Again ...John Q Doe Jr as his separate estate.
Some time vestment is John G. Smith Jr a married man as his separate estate….. It is not as rare as you think.... So your rambling on is redundant.
Second.... mention of the wife was not accidental .... and there is another son too. This man gave me a lot of information on their situation.. I did forget to ask if that was his dog. I also told him if there was any thing I could to help just give me a call.
Third……same middle initials are a whole other subject. And not even close to the being Jr or not to a Jr......So nothing to hang a hat on…
I just gave the just of the incident not a word for word for cryin out loud.
Stranger thing have happened .........you need to get out more

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/23/07 5:07am
Msg #191516

Re: here is the answers

**Stranger thing have happened .........you need to get out more**

I get out just enough...enough to realize that what I personally think about this may or may not have anything to do with reality. That I personally don't believe your story doesn't mean it couldn't have happened...it just means I don't believe it.

**I don’t care what the 1003 states; I'm not putting my seal on it. In the state of Washington we can’t use the 1003 to identify a person. So common sense doesn’t play.**

I try to keep a bit of common sense engaged in all situations...but that's just me.

jag, if it happened like you told it then it did. It doesn't make a hill of beans whether or not I believe it or not. I just don't.

Reply by jag/wa on 5/23/07 12:27pm
Msg #191580

Re: here is the answers

Brenda you are so right it doesn’t make a hill of beans whether or not you believe it or not.
"Hopefully jag will tell us why I am wrong"
****You asked and I answered period*****.
Common sense and doing your job …be careful…..the smell test…..” you want to be perceived as doing UPL.”
“It's not our business what the vesting is on the documents.
We have no right to suggest the vesting is wrong.
We ID the signer by our state's rules and meet the lender requirements. We don't imply or suggest we know what the correct name would be on the documents.

********This banter was fun but I’m done.********

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/23/07 1:02pm
Msg #191590

Re: here is the answers

I have never used the term "smell test" to my recollection.

Using common sense and checking the age on the 1003 is not exactly a new idea. Especially where Jr/Sr/II/III comes in. I would say that people who have been doing this awhile would probably go to that immediately if they felt something was amiss on the age and given all the suffix discussion.

In all seriousness, a notary needs their notary rules. A signing agent needs to use a little common sense in addition to notary rules.

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/23/07 1:03pm
Msg #191591

Re: here is the answers

**if they felt something was amiss on the age and given all the suffix discussion.**

Meant to say, if they felt something was amiss on the party's identification presented given all the suffix discussion of Jr.

Reply by jag/wa on 5/23/07 2:50pm
Msg #191610

Re: here is the last answers

Jeeeezzzzzzzzzz Brenda, your like my little sister. When we were kids she always had to have the last word.
I have never used the term "smell test" to my recollection.
*******check the quotes********
Using common sense and checking the age on the 1003 is not exactly a new idea. Especially where Jr/Sr/II/III comes in. I would say that people who have been doing this awhile would probably go to that immediately if they felt something was amiss on the age and given all the suffix discussion.
********Can’t use to Id anyone in the State of Washington isn’t relevant and I would never bring it up at the table, mainly because it would only cause more distress when faced with improper id. They bring out their ss card, work id , you name it they pull it out... all of which by law are unacceptable ……Again common sense has no play here…..********
In all seriousness, a notary needs their notary rules. A signing agent needs to use a little common sense in addition to notary rules.
*****Sorry but I don’t go by rules I go by law……I leave common sense to borrow, lenders and title…Not notary law. And leaving…”use a little common sense along with notary rules”……irresponsible in my opinion.**********
I’m into my 3rd commission renewal. You’re a smart girl you can do the math. So I would say I’ve been doing this awhile.

Brenda I’m going to leave you with the last word… go for it.

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/23/07 8:01pm
Msg #191641

Re: here is the last answers - Bob-Chicago...please

claim that "smell test" phrase.

jag, I'll tell ya what, if it were my story someone thought was full of holes I'd just move on and chalk it up to their ignorance...IF it were true...at this point it's just hard to figure out what you are talking about. I guess better to try to use my quotes taken out of context to redirect attention away from the drama about you saving the day inside...

the gated community...where there was a
the dutiful gateguard who kept perfect records...wonder if he noted on his clipboard...
the phantom appraiser who may or may not have chatted with ...
the "next door" neighbors on this huge estate with the gated driveway (What did the neighbor do, shimmy the wall to make acquaintance with the appraiser?)...and
the helpful but nosy neighbor...who made acquaintance with the appraiser but not....
the wretched son ...whose parents had...
the big decision of whether or not the borrowers would take it to the police...plus...
the Id difficulties of Jr. v. III and finally....
the careful notary who won't even look at the 1003 to check age because they don't use common sense as a signing agent)...but saved the day!

Then there's the side story of the notary ID'ing the...
wretched son (who had a new DL) sitting in pictures on the mantle...while
the dog kept mum sitting on that secret all alone in the mansion...and finally...
a NB Spouse who has been married to a man for long enough to bear his devil's spawn yet their zillion dollar house is separate property which she doesn't even have to acknowledge the encumbrance thereof...

Okay...yeah, I can see why you'd rather quote me out of context...and why you won't comment on Zee's posts...just out of curiosity...have you heard the story about the doberman which coughed up a burglar's finger who was hiding in a closet after bleeding to death???

Thank you, tri-commissioned Notary Jag, for allowing me the last word.

Reply by snowflake/PA on 5/22/07 3:05pm
Msg #191360

Great job. You'd be amazed what people conspire to do. I worked for lawyers. Woman calls and wants dad added to deed. Sure. No problem. Bring dad in so we can talk with him. She never showed.

Reply by Tess/ME on 5/22/07 4:20pm
Msg #191381

Even George Forman numbered his kids....

Even Henry VIII kept his "number" and I'm sure he would have "fought" anyone that wanted to call him the VII or VI. However, as much as we have discussed this and we all KNOW the correct, proper proceedure and what the person's name should show, some of us are still going to do it "their own way" until it comes back and bites them in the butt(er).

Reply by Gerry_VT on 5/22/07 4:50pm
Msg #191386

Re: Even George Forman numbered his kids....

Tess/ME wrote "However, as much as we have discussed this and we all KNOW the correct, proper procedure and what the person's name should show, some of us are still going to do it "their own way" until it comes back and bites them in the butt(er)." Well, not one of the people who knows the proper procedure has seen fit to post a link to the law that proves it is the proper procedure, I suggest we don't know anything. It has often been mentioned on this board not to rely on advise posted on the board, only rely on information from official sources. That's something I can agree with.