Posted by snowflake/PA on 5/31/07 11:59am
Msg #192902

expired id for closing tonight?

Contacted BOs to confirm appt. 1 of the BOs has expired DL from Jan. LO claims its okay to sign docs. I say no. I'm certain I know the answer. Reschedule when she had current, valid, id, right?

Reply by VioCa on 5/31/07 12:03pm
Msg #192903

Try and see if credible witnesses are allowed by your state law and then call borrower and ask if they can provide them. Call the title co and ask for permission. Sometime the lender has to be informed about the situation.
I am in California, and do not know the law in PA, but here, with two credible witnesses you can do the closing

Reply by CaliNotary on 5/31/07 12:12pm
Msg #192907

I wouldn't use credible witnesses

That the borrower has been too lazy for the past 4 months to renew their driver's license doesn't fall under the "very difficult or impossible to obtain current" criteria it requires for credible witnesses to be used.

Reply by SueW/Tn on 5/31/07 12:16pm
Msg #192908

I knew you'd comment on this one Cali...

In Tn. we can't use cw's unless they are known both to the party signing AND the NP...I've never used the first one.

Reply by CaliNotary on 5/31/07 5:59pm
Msg #193031

Re: I knew you'd comment on this one Cali...

Yeah, it's been awhile since I've beat on this horse.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/31/07 12:24pm
Msg #192914

Re: I wouldn't use credible witnesses

I believe a credible witness in PA has to be personally known to the notary as well as to the individual signing the document.

Reply by Larry/Ca on 5/31/07 2:30pm
Msg #192960

In California you need to follow the law....

and let the witness make this determination as to whether or not it is difficult for the signer to obtain this ID. It is not unreasonable to consider it difficult if they could not obtain it here and now for this signing.

Reply by ME/NJ on 5/31/07 12:11pm
Msg #192905

I would find out what state laws are. In NJ an expired DL is still good for ID for a period of time.

Reply by snowflake/PA on 5/31/07 12:17pm
Msg #192909

I just called BO and she cannot have 2 witnesses available for tonight. Told hiring company I can't close. Why in 5 months would someone not get their license renewed?

Reply by FCCARKANSAS on 5/31/07 12:21pm
Msg #192913

why can't she get it renewed today?

I would! Of course I always get mine renewed b4 it expires.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/31/07 12:21pm
Msg #192912

Check your notary laws on ID.
I had a notarization the other week (not loan signing) and the signers DL had expired. I was about to refuse to notarize until I noticed the DL had been issued within 5 years, which is unusual as Florida DL's are usually good for 6 years. As it had been issued within 5 years I was able to notarize.

Reply by PL on 5/31/07 12:28pm
Msg #192917

The commonwealth says:

Section 12.1. Determining Identity of Person Appearing. –
(a) The officer notarizing the instrument shall know through personal knowledge or have satisfactory
evidence that the person appearing before the notary is the person described in and who is executing the
instrument. For the purposes of this act and section 5 of the act of July 24, 1941 (P.L.490, No.188),
known as the “Uniform Acknowledgment Act,” “personal knowledge” means having an acquaintance,
derived from association with the individual in relation to other people and based upon a chain of circumstances
surrounding the individual, which establishes the individual’s identity, and “satisfactory evidence”
means the reliance on the presentation of a current, government-issued identification card bearing
a photograph, signature or physical description and serial or identification number, or the oath or affirmation
of a credible witness who is personally known to the notary and who personally knows the individual

Reply by snowflake/PA on 5/31/07 12:36pm
Msg #192920

Re: The commonwealth says:

I understand that. However, the license is not current/valid and I don't know the borrowers personally and they don't have 2 credible witnesses.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 5/31/07 12:37pm
Msg #192921

What more do you need then the State's word? n/m

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/31/07 1:07pm
Msg #192923

Like PL says, you have an ID; yes, it's expired, but your laws don't seem to rule out expired.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 5/31/07 1:16pm
Msg #192927

Re: Then what does "current" mean? n/m

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/31/07 3:51pm
Msg #192998

Re: Then what does "current" mean? - Linda

I missed that...it's what I get for reading too fast.

Reply by MelissaK on 5/31/07 4:58pm
Msg #193021

In CA an expired ID is acceptable for a signing if the ID has been issued within the last 5 years.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 5/31/07 1:32pm
Msg #192933

There might be an additional problem. Many lenders....

require a VALID id for purposes of Patriot Act compliance.
I am not aware of any lender that permits a CW for Patriot
Act purposes, even if permitted by state law.
Just another example of wearing a NP AND a NSA hat

Reply by PCasey/CO on 5/31/07 1:39pm
Msg #192938

I would definitely require a valid (i.e. not expired) ID for the signing. The only exception I have seen (maybe BrendaTX can comment on this) was an active duty military re-fi I did in Colorado - they had expired Texas License but he also had the state issued card that said his drivers license did not expire as long as he was active duty. I also used his military ID for the signing just to be safe.

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/31/07 2:42pm
Msg #192963

Our laws say ... "the Notary Public must use an identification card issued by a governmental agency or a passport issued by the United States to identify the signer. "

Doesn't mention expired or unexpired.

Reply by Melodie Rice on 5/31/07 1:40pm
Msg #192940

if the id is expired RUN

Reply by sue_pa on 5/31/07 3:38pm
Msg #192986

everyone is wrong

Everyone here had tried to be helpful but id is state specific and no one has given you an answer that will work in PA. We cannot use the 2 credible witnesses like CA does - that's just not an option here at all. Can use a credible witness however that person must be known to you and to the signer so in this job, that seldom will be an option. The license cannot be expired if you are using that for id. However, I use the license for my own satisfaction in iding the signer. I use their SS card as id to satisfy the state. They almost always have something - voter registration card, car registration, something government issued.

As others have stated, the lender may not accept the expired license for the patriot act but for notarial purposes you can usually find something that will work.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 5/31/07 3:45pm
Msg #192991

"I use their SS card as id to satisfy the state"

and “satisfactory evidence”
means the reliance on the presentation of a current, government-issued identification card bearing
a photograph, signature or physical description and serial or identification number, or the oath or affirmation
of a credible witness who is personally known to the notary and who personally knows the individual.

I don't believe the SSAN card, voter registration or car registration covers your bases with the state

Reply by sue_pa on 5/31/07 3:49pm
Msg #192997

Re: "I use their SS card as id to satisfy the state"

of course they do. they contain a signature and an identification number.

Reply by MelissaCT on 5/31/07 3:53pm
Msg #192999

Re: "I use their SS card as id to satisfy the state"

I know in CT we cannot use SS card. It would appear that the PA regs state "bearing
a photograph, signature or physical description and serial or identification number..." doesn't mean bearing a photograph OR signature or physical description, but rather (1) a photograph -- (2) signature or physical description -- and (3) serial or ID number -- being that all three requirements must be met. The comma after photograph indicates that this is a separate requirement from the signature or physical description requirement.

Reply by MelissaCT on 5/31/07 4:01pm
Msg #193005

Wording is a bit ambiguous, but I'd find it difficult to

believe that an ID with only a signature or physical description and serial or ID # would positively establish ID. That would mean that in PA, my mother could pose as me with only my SS card as ID. As long as her forgery of my signature was somewhat close, it would pass as mine to a PA notary??? That defies common sense. I would question the intent of that wording & I would be inclined to believe that 3 requirements must be met regarding identification - photograph, signature or physical description and serial or ID number.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/31/07 4:32pm
Msg #193017

Re: Wording is a bit ambiguous, but I'd find it difficult to

Used to have "Not valid for identification" or something similar on the cards.

Reply by sue_pa on 5/31/07 6:46pm
Msg #193042

Re: Wording is a bit ambiguous, but I'd find it difficult to

... I would be inclined to believe that 3 requirements must be met regarding identification - photograph, signature or physical description and serial or ID number...

I have no idea why I am doing this. Have you attended any PA seminars or training classes since our id requirements have changed? do you have our handbook that states

...What to look for: the identification must have a serial or identification number. You may record ... Note: never record a customer's social security number. ...In addition to a serial or id number, an acceptable id must also contain EITHER (my emphasis) a photo, a physical description or the signature of the bearer. The best form of identification has both a photo and signature...

Marlene, halt all classes and seminars because people from other states have determines you guys are teaching us improperly. That said, your example about your mother is correct and that is why I personally won't accept something without a photo. If the photo id is expired I use that for my personal satisfaction. As stated in my original post, what I use for the state in these situations is different than my own 'proof'.

Reply by Marlene/USNA on 6/5/07 10:03am
Msg #193676

PA ID Requirements

Sorry I wasn't here for you, Sue, and other PA posters, but geez, I was working. For the benefit of searchers when this post is relegated to the archives:

We went round and round with the SOS on this when the law was passed in 2003 until we all finally figured out what the legislators intended (they're lawyers, they write in legalese not English, so it doesn't matter if there are commas in certain places or not).

It's a CURRENT, government-issued ID with EITHER a photo, OR a physical description OR a signature AND a serial or ID number. So technically yes, a Social Security card could be used. So could a public school ID card or a public library card, but USNA/PAN doesn't recommend using those. (Common sense applies here.)

A credible witness may be used in the absence of personal knowledge or the above-mentioned ID, but the witness must be personally known to both the notary and the customer.

Sue is right. She satisfies notary ID requirements for the state and signing agent requirements for her personal satisfaction, and she gets both jobs done properly.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 5/31/07 11:03pm
Msg #193080

This really depends on what your state requires.

If your state (or the lender) demands that the ID has to be current, you have no choice. If there's no such requirement, use your judgment - ignore the expiration date and focus on matching the individual to the ID. As a practical matter, does someone's identity change (or cease to be valid) just because their identity card expired?

Here in NY, we're required to confirm ID based on "reasonable evidence" - which pretty much means notary's discretion. I've accepted expired IDs when it was clear to me that the photo and signature matched. On the other hand, I recently refused to do a signing when one borrower could only provide an expired foreign passport as ID - the LO and his manager insisted it was OK, but it just didn't smell right to me. Notary's discretion - if your state doesn't specify, use common sense...