Posted by bowie_MD on 5/17/07 8:48pm
Msg #190707
oaths and affirmations
Forgive me, I posted this early yesterday. I was wondering if anyone else could respond.
I recently started working for 2 new title companies. I sat in on a few closings with closers on their staff.
When explaining the docs and getting signatures they did not ask "do you solemly affirm under penalties..." or similar language.
they simply explained the doc in general terms, got the signature and notarized it.
I thought we had to actually ask "do you solemly affirm etc, etc..."
same for acknowledgments, they did not ask if the signing constitutes their own act and of their own free will.
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/17/07 9:17pm
Msg #190712
Part of the notarial act is administering the oath, or having the signer acknowledge they are signing of their own free will.
I would never complete a notarial act without doing either.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 5/17/07 9:37pm
Msg #190716
Re: oaths and affirmations..bowie, that's the real world.
Where I am, it's always been like that, the governing powers that be know it is like that, they like it like that, and it is not likely to change.
I am not arguing the rightness or wrongness about it but that's just the way it is. I don't give a rat's tail what anyone jumps up and says in horror that I'd make such a statement and how that the law is broken by this, yada, yada, yada...but the real world is a lot different that the world that the NSA-specific notary knows it to be. Let me restate that...people who came to have a notary commission due to loan signings have a totally different perspective than people who have worked on the inside as a paralegal or a lawyer, or a mortgage person, or as an escrow person.
As a notary we serve a necessary function in a legal, title, mortgage job and out in the notary signing field, but the reality is that the *ceremony* is not done with great attention drawn to the importance of the notary...not in ANY title companies I have been inside of (my own closing, too) and no one is "sworn in".
Some closers will say things like (me included) you understand that by signing these documents you are affirming or swearing what you have put your signature to, but we do it without bringing great attention to it.
I did an affidavit just the other day and my only comment was, I need you to sign and swear to this. Please read it before placing your signature there. Make sure you can swear to it.
In offices where notarial work is daily in functions other than loan signings you just don't have people raise their right hand and swear them to tell the whole truth, etc. if you intend on not being seen as a pompous ass with a seriously inflated sense of self-importance. No insult intended to anyone...I am just telling it like I have observed it since I was 24 years old.
It's reality and if you work in a title company you prefer to keep your job and not to irritate the patrons, or your employers. That's just the way it is. There's documents to prep, huds to finish, closings to coordinate and time is a factor. It's not *all* about the notary block.
The notary function is available at every desk in the house. The insider notary who would do that won't be there long. However, I will say a prudent notary will make sure they use the words necessary to get the job done properly but if you want to keep your job you won't try to make a long drawn out affair of it and bring attention to what will be perceived as your own perceived importance. (Not you bowie...speaking generally.)
In the field, as NSAs all we are doing is focusing on those tasks at hand that notaries do, but it's a different world in the brick and mortar offices of legal, mortgage and title. That is why the NSA will get flack when they nitpick the initials or refuse to go along with "date magic." It's done all the time to get the deal closed. If you don't like what I am saying, I am sorry, but it's the real world.
Do I back date? No, I don't. In my office I would never be asked to do it...my folks in my job don't play those games. The lawyers I work with are law-abiding notaries also.
However, if I held up progress over a missing initial on a DL, or demanded a raised right hand, I would not have a real job in escrow, legal, or title...and neither would any other paralegal or legal assistant in Texas. I am absolutely okay with that and the way I do my job. I am under the direct supervision of attorneys...always have been except as a notary signing agent. If you call the SoS here and ask for clarification within the type of things I am saying, they will say, "ask an attorney." I respect the attorneys I work for so I trust that I don't need to be nuts over a document which may reflect a married name when the DL doesn't. It's the person who is signing and that's that....the notary is responsible for notarizing a person's signature and recording their identifying information, NOT for telling lawyers how to draw up documents.
Out in the field the notary in Texas who plays the "swear in" game and demands to make a big ceremony out of a loan signing appointment won't work for better companies or RM loan brokers who observe this. They hate it and have called and gritched on the phone to me about the ridiculous notary who is so full of themselves that they INSIST on this. Why? Because these LOs *have* been on the inside and think that behavior is preposterous. It divides the inexperienced field notary from the real mortgage and title notary. They see it as someone who is a narcissistic nut job who doesn't understand they aren't the center of attention and don't get to dominate people's time at their leisure. Not saying that's right or wrong just telling the way it is. If you are good at this you learn to get the details in without dramatizing the experience to center on the notary's importance.
Each person reading this should proceed with habits they are confident in and comfortable with...and nothing less. But to answer your question about the diluted version of notary work you observed...there it is.
| Reply by Susan Fischer on 5/17/07 9:57pm
Msg #190719
Absolutely stellar post, Brenda! Many, many thanks. n/m
| Reply by Becca_FL on 5/17/07 11:58pm
Msg #190743
Re: oaths and affirmations..bowie, that's the real world.
I thought I would be chewed up and spit out after my post to the original query, but you Ms. Brenda, have laid yourself to the slaughter.
I agree with you 100% and wish I could have said it so succinctly.
I love the way you say >>get over yourselves.<< True, so true.
| Reply by hcampersFL on 5/18/07 12:44am
Msg #190747
Re: oaths and affirmations..bowie, that's the real world.
<It divides the inexperienced field notary from the real mortgage and title notary. They see it as someone who is a narcissistic nut job who doesn't understand they aren't the center of attention and don't get to dominate people's time at their leisure.>
Truer words I haven't heard or read!
Thanks for all the straight talk, Sista!
| Reply by SpinClose/MI on 5/18/07 8:04am
Msg #190769
Re: oaths and affirmations..bowie, that's the real world.
My training comes from a title company where no one was ever sworn in. After some additional training I started administering the standard "do you swear or affirm" with right hand raised and have received many compliments on professionalism from LO's who were present. On the other hand, so many of the borrowers are refinancing ever 2 years and have never had to do this before (or sign a journal and give a thumb print) that on at least one occasion I was tossed out of someone's house and the title company (not where I was trained) just sent a "sign and initial" signing agent.
Like many other things in this business, you have to learn to "read the borrower" if you want to stay in business.
| Reply by Kari Schaffner on 5/17/07 10:09pm
Msg #190725
I always administer an oath at each closing. It is required!
| Reply by TRG_wy on 5/18/07 10:37am
Msg #190793
Ditto.
State laws can come into play here. A swearing in oath may be required (as here) so all I can say is read and understand your state requirements on this issue.
Just because things may be lax in the title office (I wasn't sworn in at my closing either) doesn't mean the swearing in requirement isn't required. Type(s) of documents also need to be noted; i.e. vehicle title or sworn affidavit.
| Reply by MelissaCT on 5/18/07 12:08pm
Msg #190820
The signature portion of the notarization is merely the written record of the oath or affirmation that was (or should have been) given to the signer. If you are not, as a notary, giving any kind of verbal ceremony, what are you recording in your written notarization?
| Reply by Poppy on 5/18/07 1:04pm
Msg #190828
"However, if I held up progress over a missing initial on a
DL"
With all due respect. That's a little scary... Maybe things are seriously different in Texas, but IMO if the docs have a middle initial and the DL doesn't, you don't have a positive ID and you've left the transaction open to fraud....
As far as the oath is concerned at least in CA it is a requirement (although the raising of the hand is not so I don't) and you will be fined if caught not administering the oath when required. It takes all of 10 seconds so the issue of time is really not an issue. IMO
| Reply by BrendaTx on 5/18/07 1:57pm
Msg #190837
Yeah, I expected these answers. n/m
| Reply by PCasey/CO on 5/18/07 1:57pm
Msg #190836
Colorado has some specific information about the legalities of an employer trying to force you to do something (like backdating, or not giving an oath). Your employer wants you to be a notary for their convenience, if they are asking you to do things that are illegal you are the one that will ultimately be charged and asked to take responsibility for YOUR actions.
I would contact your SOS office and report your employer. Your employer can ask until they are blue in the face but it is your decision to ignore the regulations and laws imposed by your state. When you are performing any notarial act you are a notary first and all those other titles second.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 5/18/07 2:14pm
Msg #190844
**I would contact your SOS office and report your employer.**
For what?
I think you might need to re-read what I wrote
| Reply by lenelle/FL on 5/18/07 3:21pm
Msg #190858
Love the post, Brenda n/m
| Reply by BrendaTx on 5/18/07 4:32pm
Msg #190865
Re: Love the post, Brenda -- thanks Lenelle. n/m
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