Posted by Charles_Ca on 11/26/07 12:34pm
Msg #222934
1st monthly Lemming Awards coming soon...
to a local Notary Rotary discussion board. Lemmings are little furry critters that have the habit of making a mass migration right off the cliffs into the ocean. Scientists often wondered what the reason was that these animals rushed to their demise with such persistence. It was n't until recently that it was decided that the animals don't actually cast themselves off the cliffs but the leaders are forced off the cliffs by their followers until the stampeding herd can come to a grinding halt.
I have recently noticed this Lemming-like activity by notaries. It seems that there are some self-proclaimed leaders gathering constituencies and proselytizing their particular brand of legislated solutions to the masses. It is hard to parse the particular leader worthy of this award because there are several. Nominations are accepted provided a specific reason is given for the nomination of one above others. I hope to have a winner of November's Lemming Award by December 15th stand by and let the games begin!
| Reply by Teddog/CO on 11/26/07 12:44pm
Msg #222935
A bright good afternoon to you Charles !
I couldn't agree more with you. I love the "Lemming" analogy and just can't wait to see the Winner. lol Personally I prefer a person who "Travels to the beat of a diffrent drummer." 
Have a Great Day !
| Reply by Charles_Ca on 11/26/07 1:22pm
Msg #222941
Re: A bright good afternoon to you Charles !
I am much more enamored of the individual than the pack also. And a great afternoon to you too!
| Reply by Becca_FL on 11/26/07 1:01pm
Msg #222938
What did I miss?
Frankly, I don't have the time to read the past weekends posts and find myself more disinterested in the recent debates on this forum. Conversations seem to be more enlightening lately and I do enjoy that, but it's the same people debating the same issues over and over that just bore me to death.
Thank goodness I have closings and charity work to occupy my time this week. I'm looking forward to a lemming free week.
http://lovedoctors.org/index.php
| Reply by Charles_Ca on 11/26/07 1:25pm
Msg #222944
You didn't really miss a thing! I just find it comical that
people rush to put the yoke of regulation around their neck rather than resolve the issues within the group. I hate the "...there ought to be a law..." mentality as much as the entitle ment mentality: come to think of it they are the same.
Have a great week.
TTFN
| Reply by Susan Fischer on 11/26/07 1:38pm
Msg #222951
Along with the Head In The Sand Ostrich Awards for
those who prefer the status quo, who insist that all changes must be terrible, who condemn anyone with visions of equity and accountability - and who , when they occasionally raise their heads to find that time has marched on, blame everyone else for being left behind.
Some rely on this board to provide daily episodes of As The Stamp Inks, replete with its melodramatic import, while others attempt actual conversations about our changing world.
Those engaging in civil, thoughtful dialog are not necessarily lemmings, and those opposed to changes are not necessarily ostriches.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 11/26/07 2:17pm
Msg #222960
Ostrich and Lemmings aside...
**Some rely on this board to provide daily episodes of As The Stamp Inks, replete with its melodramatic import, while others attempt actual conversations about our changing world.**
OMG, that is SO ME! Thank you Susan...you gave me a good snort at myself!
I love it...The Stamp Inks! I do love my notaries and their stories.
| Reply by Susan Fischer on 11/26/07 4:59pm
Msg #222990
'welcome, Brenda - stay warm and dry...it's nasty here
on the coast. Even the seagulls are hiding out and the ducks are off the lake.
| Reply by Charles_Ca on 11/26/07 2:48pm
Msg #222967
Susan, it has been my experience that you are certainly
a critical thinker. I don't believe that those interested in change are necessarily all Lemmings, nor those that oppose the change are necessarily ostriches however there have been exhibitions of Lemming-like behaviour recently and I think it is to every body's best interest to stop and think about the differences and about the direction that the business is headed in. There certainly have been some sides chosen in the recent past and there are those who would like to make people think that language and law are mutually exclusive when it comes to notaries, or that businesses are mutual benefit societies. However if you perceive yourself as either a Lemming or an ostrich what can I say...? If the shoe fits...
| Reply by Susan Fischer on 11/26/07 3:39pm
Msg #222979
Re: Susan, it has been my experience that you are certainly
**...there are those who would like to make people think that language and law are mutually exclusive when it comes to notaries, or that businesses are mutual benefit societies.**
Laws are created by language. Bad laws are written with poor or careless language and often not only fall short of producing the safeguards they were envisioned to enact, but create further harms. Parsing out the language is essential to achieving a consensus on the intent of the law (or rule), its applications, and its consequences.
Good laws (that is, well-written) help society maintain equity; a more level playing field. Imagine, if you will, working in an office building built in a city without building codes, as an example. Sure, the market may help identify lousy builders, but that is small consolation to the hundreds of lives lost in an office building's collapse. And, to be sure, there are some inane elements of such codes - but for the most part, they are necessary and provide significant protections for people. The people who create such codes arrive at the rules by tapping the expertise of those fluent in their respective industries. I say, the more experience at the table, the better and more thorough the protections.
Not sure what you mean by "businesses are mutual benefit societies." Perhaps you could elaborate?
(PS, thanks for the compliment)
| Reply by Charles_Ca on 11/26/07 6:52pm
Msg #222998
Elaboration: NNA=business, ANA=Business. MWNA=Business
There are those who think they are professional associations which they are not, they are businesses, there are others but those are notable. A true professional association would have a board of directors composed of members and would be elected by members. Notaries gathered together to address the needs of notaries and not to just profit from them. I believe that however is a fantasy aside from the success of the notary networks I don't see that notaries are capable of uniting for a common cause.
The compliment was not gratuitous but well deserved.
| Reply by DianeCipa on 11/26/07 7:15pm
Msg #223004
Re: Elaboration: NNA=business, ANA=Business. MWNA=Business
Charles: You just answered the question that was floating around in my head this morning. I wondered if NNA truly was a trade association and if so, it would have officers, a board of directors, by-laws - the whole nine yards. Are you saying that they have none of those? If that's the case, then notaries really need to form their own true trade association.
When PA unveiled the electronic notary last year, the "president" of NNA was on stage with the Secretary of State and the entire effect was that he represented notaries nationwide.
I think states look at NNA as if it WERE the equivalent of NAR, ALTA, MBA, and NAMB. If that's NOT the case, someone should. I have heard good things about UNAA, but wonder if they have taken the steps to form a real trade association. Any UNAA folks reading out there?
| Reply by BrendaTx on 11/26/07 7:37pm
Msg #223008
Re: Elaboration: NNA=business, ANA=Business. MWNA=Business
Diane, To my knowledge the only organizations for notaries are not non-profits.
| Reply by Susan Fischer on 11/26/07 9:41pm
Msg #223026
But, Brenda - non-profit status does not mean there are
no profits and everyone works for peanuts. It's just an IRS designation. Many 'non' or 'not for' profit organizations make tons of money, but the inference (and perception) is that they are altruistic entities. (I'm preaching to the choir, I know)
Some that really irk me are the 'debt consolidation' companies that try very hard to present themselves as saviors, flashing their non-profitness all over the place, when in reality, they are preying on desperate hopes while raking in the dough with costly fees. Some may actually do some good, (cough) but I sure don't trust/believe them.
So even if an organization were designated as a non-profit, I wouldn't necessarily assume it had integrity.
The proof's in the pudding, and the NNA isn't even on the stove. (Don't know what that had to do with anything, it just came out.)
| Reply by BrendaTx on 11/26/07 10:15pm
Msg #223035
Re: But, Brenda - non-profit status does not mean there are
I am familiar (somewhat) with professional organizations organized under the IRS 501 (c) code. I might be a little over my head here but...
While the IRS status / designation does not guarantee integrity it is the correct route for a professional trade association for notaries. Otherwise, you might as well be dealing with the any number of current notary organizations which sell products and services to notaries for the purpose of benefitting its founders.
There is no real member ownership if members are not given regular financial reports, provided an opportunity to elect board members, to participate in annual membership meetings and if any one person, or groups of persons, or entity benefits from profits from the membership.
I have been on steering committees of three development of community economic development groups and one Big Brother/Big Sister chapter in the past. These were established for the purpose of like-minded people for different reasons. My current work occasionally involves establishing entities both for profit and not-for-profit. There is a huge difference between the organization of the two and the way business is conducted.
IM undereducated opinion, 501(c) IRS status is the true seal of a non-profit entity established to serve a purpose or a membership but not to serve the founders by profit.
To my knowledge no current notary organization is set up (legally) to serve its members. While we can all say that we get great service and benefits from being members of NR (and I am a fan, obviously) the entity itself serves the founders (legally speaking) not the members.
| Reply by Becca_FL on 11/26/07 11:13pm
Msg #223044
Re: But, Brenda - non-profit status does not mean there are
Sister Brenda,
A true 501(c) must have their books open to public to view. The 501(c) that I volunteer for advertises the fact that you can look at their books any day during business hours. I would love for some NSA in SoCal to 'volunteer' to take a gander at the NNA 501(c) books to see how they manipulate the dollars. I'm calling you out. Are you willing to take on the beast? If so, please report what you find.
Oh, and BTW, NNA attys., this IS MY OPINION, I'm sorry for you, but my opinion is shared by many.
For a TRUE 501(c) charity please click here http://lovedoctors.org/index.php
| Reply by BrendaTx on 11/26/07 11:27pm
Msg #223047
Re: But, Brenda - non-profit status does not mean there are
** 'volunteer' to take a gander at the NNA 501(c) books **
Are they even 501(c)???
| Reply by Becca_FL on 11/26/07 11:49pm
Msg #223050
Re: But, Brenda - non-profit status does not mean there are
Darn good question, Ms. Brenda. I suppose, we should find out for sure. Any helpers? I'm kinda busy right now with EOM and The Love Doctors dot com.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 11/26/07 11:43pm
Msg #223048
Read #201469 for info on NNA non-profit/for profit status
Harry and Gerry (elsewhere in the thread) have provided information relative to the three faces of the NNA's profit/non-profit status.
| Reply by Becca_FL on 11/26/07 11:54pm
Msg #223051
Re: Read #201469 for info on NNA non-profit/for profit statu
It's soooo convoluted...where is the line? I chose to deal with TRUE 501(c) charitable organizations that have a real mission and a meaning. Am I wrong?
http://lovedoctors.org/index.php
| Reply by Susan Fischer on 11/27/07 12:05am
Msg #223052
Point well taken. Such a representative organization does
not exist.
So thank goodness for cyber-roundtables.
| Reply by jojodatura on 11/27/07 11:22am
Msg #223085
Re: But, Brenda - non-profit status does not mean there are
Not profits can use up to 40% of thier income for "Administration Costs", ie. payroll.
| Reply by Susan Fischer on 11/26/07 8:13pm
Msg #223014
Ah. I'm not sure it takes 'uniting for a common cause' to
participate in the development of rules as they relate to this job. It is certainly to the discredit of the NNA that they have no arm to address the changes that are bound to happen, but alas, they simply aren't in the business of the Business of NSAs - just their bottom line. But, there are others who are attempting to open the roundtables and develop state by state constituents to seek out and address the various issues confronting our work. Building such a sophistocated organization is not easy, takes funding, and most importantly, participation and commitment.
The many and absolutely necessary changes made for working Americans came at great cost to those demanding and fighting for worker safety, fair wages, benefits, and pensions - pieces of the fat and juicy pie so tightly held by the wealthy business owners.
While I am not suggesting a union, I am saying that the more voices heard and considered, the greater the chances that any new rules accurately reflect the scope of our work, the minimum requirements for knowledge and skill sets, and a truer picture of the actual liability of NSAs. These voices need not come from professional associations, and as a matter of fact, if presented well, could circumvent self-serving testimony from the likes of the NNA which, are not in the best interests of the signing agent as guidelines and rules are developed.
I don't see these opportunities as fantasy, but rather a duty to get involved - on any level. Look at the success of Laura Vestanen in getting a good law passed in WA. Was it easy? No. Was it worth it? Many, many people think so, and are so grateful. Is it perfect? Who knows.
Cheers! <she said, raising her cup of warmed eggnog, spirits, and a dash of nutmeg...>
| Reply by DianeCipa on 11/26/07 9:17pm
Msg #223023
Re: Ah. I'm not sure it takes 'uniting for a common cause'
And raising a hot Bloody Mary in return. Cheers, girl! You're a good advocate. 
| Reply by Susan Fischer on 11/26/07 9:54pm
Msg #223030
Clink! Appreciate the toast. n/m
| Reply by Becca_FL on 11/26/07 10:57pm
Msg #223043
Re: Ah. I'm not sure it takes 'uniting for a common cause'
IMO, I think the ones searching for a 'title' in this industry are those that have never worked in the industry and crave some sort of justification for what they do. Intelligent people know it's not what they are, or do, it's what they know and that's what sets them apart from the others.
The NNA has done nothing to give credence to their 'certified' status, in my mind. And, the Lulu & Drake constituency lost all credibility when they started phishing members from NotRot to there site. I have emails from Drake to back this up. Quite underhanded, if you ask me. Would you trust an 'organization' that used such phishing tactics? I’ll not have an association with an 'association' that robs its membership from a well established source. JMO, of course.
IMO, LuLu & Drake seemed to find every 'dissed' newbie to cajole and convince that they were in jeopardy of losing their credibility. Credibility that was questionable from the start.
Use your brain, I'm done here.
| Reply by ReneeK_MI on 11/27/07 8:53am
Msg #223068
Becca ...
I am actively promoting a designated & defined “title” – preferably licensure – and I have done almost nothing BUT work in this industry. It is not any personal kind of justification, but legal justification that I crave. How long do you believe the Silent Treatment is going to overlook the gaping hole in all those CPL’s being passed around the world? That gaping hole is also bleeding, in the form of increased claims, and I seriously doubt the title underwriters are going to come down with a case of altruism to cover it.
As for the raising of the old drama, Becca – whatever information you have, I would appreciate the opportunity to SEE one thing to substantiate the accusations. I would, in fact, appreciate ANYONE sharing anything with me that they might think pertinent – rather than making negative and unsubstantiated statements in a venue that PROHIBITS me or any of the other UNAA members who ARE ON THIS FORUM from speaking in support of our CHOICE to belong to the UNAA.
There are those that make noise, and those that just get to work and do whatever they think is the most right thing to do. I don’t claim any special powers of intellect or moral fiber, but I am willing to roll up my sleeves and give it my best shot, and nobody anywhere can ask more of me than that.
Please remember that it is against the rules of this forum to voice support for any entity of any kind which might be perceived as advertising competitive services, at the discretion of the owners – although it IS acceptable to post things that are negative.
| Reply by Becca_FL on 11/27/07 12:21pm
Msg #223105
Here ya go, Renee
Start with msg #123336.
On June 1, 2006 I received an email, message or PM (I can't remember) from Drakester saying he would share with me where Chuck was hanging out. So I emailed Fake Drake to find out and this is what I got.
From: Rebecca Fair [mailto:[e-mail address]]
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 9:45 PM
To: [e-mail address]
Subject: What's up w/ Chuck?
Hey Drakester - What new forum is Charles on? Things are way slow on NotRot & GoMob lately.
Thanks for the info!
Becca
Rebecca Fair
Mobile Notary Public
=====================
From: "Drake Kassis" <[e-mail address]> Add to Address BookAdd to Address Book Add Mobile Alert
To: "'Rebecca Fair'" <[e-mail address]>
Subject: RE: What's up w/ Chuck?
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:56:20 -0500
Mwna.net, it just got going a few weeks ago not much going on there either but looks like it might pick up speed. Who knows?
It seems like the organization has it together. I see a few of the NOTROT people have become members of the site itself but not many to the forum. Finally an organization that seems to be looking out for notaries and not money.
Hazzaa Kassis, Signing Agent
Halitek Industries
520 Eden Avenue
Sioux City, IA 51105
712-899-1569
=======================================
"It seems like the organization has it together." How deceitful is THAT? He IS the friggin organization. Just plain self serving and dishonest IMO. What a TOOL.
| Reply by Becca_FL on 11/27/07 12:41pm
Msg #223114
Re: Here ya go, Renee
I have absolutely no doubt that Drake and LuLu came to this forum with one goal in mind...to poach members. I truly believe this, I saw it happen, as did others including the site owner. Drake and LuLu did exactly what Barry Silver did and thankfully, they were all banned...Kicked to the curb like the common trash they resemble.
| Reply by ReneeK_MI on 11/27/07 1:42pm
Msg #223123
Becca ...
First the accusation was phishing, which you claimed you could substantiate with e-mails. The e-mail you've posted, IF this is what your 'evidence' is, is by no means anywhere near the accusation, which is/was a pretty serious accusation and one you might want to look up before using the term again.
Drake and Lulu - they used names other than their real names HERE, and is it any wonder?! How many people are so scared of this forum that they won't even venture out on the dance floor at ALL?? THERE IS HISTORY, Becca, that you and others are unaware of and that will remain so, because Drama Day is over and it just doesn't matter to us anymore. The door was open, the platform was public, and the UNAA will not repeat the performance for your sake or anyone else's. It just simply isn't the way grown-up professionals ought to behave, period.
You may not consider me all that intelligent, and that's okay - but I was here for the first show show, too. As was Sue, as were a lot of other good folks who simply did NOT see the same things you did. Imagine - that there are different perspectives out there, and opposing opinions, and the whole world doesn't look through the same eyes. Imagine that there might be parts that you're just not privy to. Imagine that people might actually be entirely different than you've judged them to be - particularly people you don't even know.
| Reply by Becca_FL on 11/27/07 2:28pm
Msg #223133
Re: Becca ...
"It just simply isn't the way grown-up professionals ought to behave, period."
Oh, but lying and deceiving is okay? If I wanted to hitch my star to any wagon you could bet the driver would have to by an honest, professional, person of integrity. A person of integrity would not have gone about things the way Drake and LuLu did. That is MY opinion. Take it or leave it.
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we practice to deceive."
| Reply by SueW/Tn on 11/27/07 12:52pm
Msg #223119
Re: Here ya go, Renee
This post will more than likely be pulled BUT I need to make this reply to you Becca...
I am a proud member of the UNAA and very VERY seldom post anything here about this association because of the rules in place. This isn't a post to defend Linda OR H because frankly they don't need a defense, every move that is made within the association is voted on by the board. Of course Charles can't verify that SOOOOO it's self-promoting AND Linda and H are going to escape to Canada with all the spoils. Sheesh!
We haven't stolen the first member from the first forum, we've invited folks to come visit and just like NR some stay, some work between several forums...believe it or not some even belong to several different forums. Some roll up their sleeves and begin work, some elect to quietly do research but everyone is involved because it's their employment that they're concerned about and how to make it better!
Everything begins with an idea and to point fingers at those that have the ideas AND actually put their money where their mouth in order to see a goal attained is both childish and immature. Members here talk about how they only became an NP in order to close their own deals and that they can barely wait until the SA as we know it is obsolete. One second members are talking about the gazillions of closings they've got and then the next they're whining about not being able to support their family....feast or famine, chicken or feathers. Whatever is going on we've all got it in common.
Anyone who has ever been a card carrying member of a union knows this: YOU CANNOT EVER GET TWO PEOPLE TO AGREE ON ANYTHING! Oh the talk is there for sure, everyone wants better things within their vocation BUT no one wants to walk out on that limb and try to help make it better. You can talk the talk but when it comes to walking the walk it's every man for himself.
Our ultimate goal is to have membership ownership, it WILL happen. In the meantime the Board will continue to vote regardless of the self-serving opinions of those that have closed minds and automatically believe what they hear and not what they themselves can learn. For some no turmoil and arguing is not their cup of tea, can't function without bashing someone. Zero tolerance simply does not trip their triggers. For others they welcome an opportunity to have open dialogue, input and a chance to raise the bar. Like everything else you can either go along with the crowd or dare to be different. You have proof, you have e-mails...let me say this...so does everyone else. There are NO innocents in this mud slinging contest however that doesn't make anyone right OR wrong, it merely gives you a choice.
| Reply by DianeCipa on 11/27/07 7:08pm
Msg #223228
thank you for the clarity n/m
| Reply by ReneeK_MI on 11/27/07 2:40pm
Msg #223136
Hmmm - lying, and signing your own name?
Sign your name, AND clearly identify your address, phone, and business name. Where in this e-mail does he indicate something that's not true?
I do thank you for finally posting this evidence.
| Reply by Becca_FL on 11/27/07 3:57pm
Msg #223162
Re: Hmmm - lying, and signing your own name?
Renee, I really thought you were more insightful. I think Harry said it best when he posted this:
Intolerable Behavior - Part I
Posted by Harry [NR] of IA on 6/29/06 11:39pm Msg #129805
This is an FYI.
We are here to support your respective signing agent businesses and to be a general resource for notaries public nationwide. We are committed to generating revenue for you in exchange for your membership and patronage. We spend more money to advertise YOU than you, collectively, pay US. In that sense, we are LOSING money so that you can MAKE money.
This is fine, for the most part, because the money we lose is offset by product sales and what remains is enough to pay the bills. (We are a small company with extremely low overhead, so it doesn't take much.) We also have every intention of adding significantly to our revenue with the introduction of new products and a more concentrated focus on additional markets. Still, your continued patronage is not only appreciated, but critical to our success.
Getting to the point... While I have covered this before, I will reiterate for those who missed it or have forgotten or misunderstood:
WE CONSIDER IT A GREAT INSULT WHEN YOU ADVERTISE COMPETING PRODUCTS AND SERVICES ON OUR FORUM.
Let me give you an example...
Nancy Notary gets her first notary commission in 2004 and becomes a signing agent. One of our staff members spends time on the phone with her discussing the industry and what it takes to get started. Nancy's Notary Rotary listing and her own perseverance begin to generate phone calls. As Nancy becomes more experienced, her participation on our board increases. In 2006, Nancy decides she wants her own notary community, so she adds a dba to her for-profit Limited Liability Company and calls it a notary "association."
As she continues to participate on our board - including the offering of off-line help and redirection to her profile and new venture - her association association is questioned. She responds by stating that she can't disclose her relationship to it (which is a matter of public record). Nancy continues by posting requests for notaries in her state and other regional states to contact her off-line. All the while, curiously, Nancy's site does not contain a single obvious link to Notary Rotary (if any at all), despite the fact that we have advertised heavily for her AND that her Notary Rotary profile has been viewed over 1600 times.
There really isn't an excuse for Nancy's parasitic behavior, which is only magnified by the lack of reciprocity. Whether using our site as an advertising platform for competing products and services is done overtly, covertly, inadvertently, knowingly or unknowingly, we do not consider it acceptable. On one end of the spectrum is "clueless" and on the other end is "unscrupulous" and, in all cases, these are people we do not want as patrons.
Nancy, and others like her, will have their accounts disabled (usually abruptly and generally after we have given them the benefit of the doubt) and will be left to their own devices to generate leads.
Harry
Notary Rotary, Inc.
P.S. My apologies to the 99.98% of you to which this message does not apply.
=====================
"parasitic behavior" Yep, that pretty much sums it up.
| Reply by ReneeK_MI on 11/27/07 8:52am
Msg #223067
Re: Elaboration: NNA=business, ANA=Business. MWNA=Business
association
n. any group of people who have joined together for a particular purpose, ranging from social to business, and usually meant to be a continuing organization. It can be formal, with rules and/or bylaws, membership requirements and other trappings of an organization, or it can be a collection of people without structure. An association is not a legally established corporation or a partnership. To make this distinction the term "unincorporated association" is often used, although technically redundant.
The MWNA is n/k/a the UNAA, and is an association, Charles, despite your own imposed definition – one with which you were casually involved at the inception, and one which recently granted you with an open & public forum with which to have any and all questions or concerns publicly answered. You were the only one, Charles, who raised any issue. Of the 1400 members – has there been anyone currently or previously a member who posed anything negative?
You have repeatedly publicly offered to facilitate an association according to your own definitions – yet to my knowledge, you have not actually done so, and I see now that you are of the opinion that notaries are incapable of uniting for a common cause. I must assume you mean YOUR common cause, as YOU define it and as YOU facilitate it?
I pose a question to you, Charles – why would the NSA population gather hands around you as a facilitator of anything, when your opinion of us is so low that you have become perhaps the loudest single detractor of our profession on this and other forums?
| Reply by ReneeK_MI on 11/27/07 8:59am
Msg #223070
Above "Elaboration" post was reply to Charles n/m
| Reply by Charles_Ca on 11/26/07 6:57pm
Msg #223001
Susan, I do believe that you understand the difference...
terms used socially in our language and terms that are established legal concepts. I was recently taken to task because I understand that meaning of the term Agent and what agency constitutes as a legal entity. Words mean things. Notaries are supposed to be an extension of their respective SOSs and therefore deal in world of legal terms. I find it interesting that some people will split hairs regarding the meaning of some terms just to turn around an impugn someone for asking for professionalism in the use of agent and the concept of agency.
| Reply by Stamper_WI on 11/26/07 7:35pm
Msg #223007
Re: Susan, I do believe that you understand the difference...
Maybe this is not a good time to discuss dual agency.
| Reply by Susan Fischer on 11/26/07 11:20pm
Msg #223046
How about Public Agent? Notaries are first and foremost
public agents of the state.
A public agent is an agent of the public, the state, or the government; a person appointed to act for the public in some matter pertaining to the administration of government or the public business. Whitehead v. United States, 93.US 247, 23 L.Ed. 882. Blacks, 6th Ed. 10th reprint, 1996, p64.
That trust bestowed demands the highest standarde of ethics, accountability, and competence in the furthering of the public's business. The NSA's agency relationship is statutory.
Under that umbrella, NSAs, in my opinion, are pretty well-named.
The Notary Signing Agent is the core of the In-Home Signing Service. It's a high bar. And should be.
Offering this in favor of Notary Signing Agent as a uniform profession...
| Reply by Susan Fischer on 11/26/07 9:11pm
Msg #223020
Ah, Charles, isn't 'Agency' a sticky wicket? It's so
unfortunate that perfectly legitimate discussions dissolve into pettiness.
The use of 'agent' as a designation is troubling to me for the very reasons you bring up. But I also think that it is the spirit of professionalism that its use is appealing.
On the one had, we have absolutely no authority to bind any party to a transaction, and on the other, we do need to present a professional front to the borrowers, and the clients who hire us. And, we wear two hats - notaries public, and 'signing professionals.' As (I think it was) Mike said, has there been a problem? I dont think so, but, by the same token, there is the potential for one.
If, for instance, a young, new NSA, enamored with her position and title, does not understand the strict limitations on her participation at the signing table, and says things she shouldn't. If the borrower believes the 'agent' has some authority and acts upon an assurance, or a promise, or a reason, or anything - a case could be made for the creation of an agency relationship, worse case scenario. While, of course, seasoned folks don't step over the bright lines, ill trained and inexperienced might, and probably have.
I'm not saying the designation is wrong, hell, I use it. But understanding the legal terms of art in particular and agency law in general may help some understand that what the public believes is not necessarily the actual picture. Words do mean many different things to many people, and the connotations and denotations - the perceptions are all-important. It's been said - that Webster's and Black's are wholly different dictionaries.
And, I agree that we have a responsibility to elevate our understandings of things legal. We deal with legal documents and their consequences every day.
Thank you so much for the exchange, Charles.
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