Posted by Teresa Kutz on 11/7/07 12:38pm
Msg #220083

Another question for Diane.

Diane,

Are all your closers licensed Title Agents? What would you say the difference is between them and us other then the employee status and the training you provide?

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 11/7/07 12:56pm
Msg #220092

Let's see if I get this right ....

My understanding of licensing would be that there are licenses for individuals, and licenses for AGENCIES - and the Agent license would cover those employed by the agent.

I'm still researching this stuff, but I think I've got that part figured out - let's see what kind of a grade I get! =)

Reply by DianeCipa on 11/7/07 1:23pm
Msg #220099

Re: Let's see if I get this right ....

Excellent and to the point questions. I'm only speaking for now based on life as it is here in PA.

In PA, employees of licensed agents may perform closings. So for now Teresa, I do not require that my closers are licensed. One is, but he also examines title and issues policies. I would have no objection and in fact I have been thinking lately that I might just have them all take the test.

My impression is that the notary signing agent community enjoys the independence of self-employment. I'm all for that! And so, if you choose to NOT work under the umbrella of a licensed employer, individual licensing would be the way to establish your place.

My training and supervision are key components to the relationship I have with my staff closers because I am responsible for their actions.

BTW - I place a high price on competence in a closer. My closers get paid $150 per transaction and our company foots the bill for all office supplies, benefits and even a company car. The closers just pay for their own gas.

Reply by Phillip/TX on 11/7/07 1:27pm
Msg #220100

Question for Diane

Diane are you in PA or AK????

Reply by DianeCipa on 11/7/07 1:35pm
Msg #220103

Re: Question for Diane

That's hilarious. I'm trying to throw you off my trail! LOL

Last night when I signed up for this forum I saw the asterisk next to zip and just filled that in. I didn't change the state to PA cause I didn't think it mattered. This morning when I logged in I saw Alaska and thought "What the hey?"

Reply by Charles_Ca on 11/7/07 1:40pm
Msg #220106

I believe that the crux of the problem is with the lack of

agency. I have seen the question asked on this board numerous times by notaries "am I the closing agent" The term Notary Signing Agent is in itself problematic as is Loan Officer or Loan Agent. Many of these people have no idea of agency relationships and in fact are not agents of anything or anyone. By being an employee of an agent the agent is the responsible party for the action of the agents employees and thereby the agency is fulfilled. The way that loans and real estate trasactions were historically closed in many parts of the US were through of actual agency relationships by the agents (Title Company's) employees. Since the advent of the indepndant contractor notary the agency relationship does not exist and it has been detrimental to all parties.

Reply by DianeCipa on 11/7/07 2:04pm
Msg #220108

Re: I believe that the crux of the problem is with the lack

Charles: You've hit on what I think is the weakest part of the transaction chain. The independent notary signing agent is sitting out there untied to any clear fiduciary or agency relationship. That lack of clarity makes you vulnerable to any court or government body who decides that you had a duty and didn't fulfill it.

Finding a place in a regulatory structure gives you a frame of guidelines in which to perform, some higher authority from which to find guidance beyond peers and winging it.

If your license flows as an extension of the title policies, you may find your fiduciary duties are really in that vein which may be different that the perspective of the loan officer.

Reply by Teresa Kutz on 11/7/07 2:20pm
Msg #220112

Re: I believe that the crux of the problem is with the lack

Who would you say the independent title agent has fiduciary responsibilities to?

Reply by Charles_Ca on 11/7/07 2:30pm
Msg #220115

The responsibilities of the title agent in CA are statutory! n/m

Reply by DianeCipa on 11/7/07 3:06pm
Msg #220123

Re: I believe that the crux of the problem is with the lack

Well, Teresa, that's something that licensing would define. If, as I would propose, the license were to flow from the title insurance end of the transaction as a title producer or title agent, then the independent is an extension of the agent or insurer to whom they are contracted.

I see myself as a representative of the title company/underwriter and since the policies protect the lender and buyer/borrower they are my first fiduciary responsibility.

The FBI sees the closer as the policeman and professional with a much higher duty than the mortgage lender or real estate agent. Courts often agree.

If I had an independent licensed closer sub-contracted on a transaction and they had a problem in the field, I would want them to contact me for guidance as I would ultimately be responsible for their actions.

What's so confusing about the unstructured business of unlicensed independent notary signing agents is that the function of closing duties is so poorly defined because of the fear of saying you are doing more than notary work. How can you take responsibility for something you're not really sure you're allowed to do?

Reply by Charles_Ca on 11/7/07 2:29pm
Msg #220114

Re: I believe that the crux of the problem is with the lack

"If your license flows as an extension of the title policies, you may find your fiduciary duties are really in that vein which may be different that the perspective of the loan officer."

Interesting comment Diane. From my perspective I view the whole transaction. I broker commercial properties but I also broker loans and so I do have a very good understanding of fiduciary relationships. I have never had any agnecy or fiduciary questions regarding Title Companies and the ones I work with have been extremely professional in all respects. The system seems to break down with the signing. The Signing Services have no standing other than as a labor contractor and the notary has no relationship other than as a contractor to the Signing Service which makes them even further removed. Now I knwo that there is an argument to be made for ostensible agency but as a real estate broker and a mortgage broker I would be much happier working with a company which uses the model you state than the current situation. In your model you have a fiduciary responsibility and the individuals doing the signings are employees of yours under your direct supervision which still leaves you as the responsible agent. I wish we had more companies that operated that way, if we did I'd certainly feel more comfortable using them. Ther primary reason I became a notary was so that I could handle the deals from the womb to the tomb rather than entrust the final act to a possible loose cannon.

Reply by Lee/AR on 11/7/07 3:16pm
Msg #220125

Reading this whole thread & having to run...

Comment: Have always had a real problem with the Agent word/part of Notary Signing Agent.
Question: How do you propose to mesh being a disinterested neutral 3rd party (Notary) while simultaneously having a (licensed) fiduciary duty to a TC?

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/7/07 3:32pm
Msg #220128

Re: Reading this whole thread & having to run...

Question to Lee: Kick me back out of this thread if I am jumping in w/o understanding/reading...however, my thoughts are along those lines... internal closings in local title companies ...title company has a relationship with the notary/escrow assistant handling their closings.

In other words, they are employees and clearly not completely unbiased. I guess I am saying is kind of...what's the difference? (Just narrowing the focus down to Lee's comment...haven't read the entire thread very closely...not commenting on licensing of agents at the moment.)

Reply by DianeCipa on 11/7/07 4:00pm
Msg #220141

Re: Reading this whole thread & having to run...

Brenda: The idea would be to create through a sub-contract between two licensed title agents or producers a work share on the same transaction. In this kind of a scenario, the title agent or insurer who is writing the policy is the lead and controlling party. The closing is performed by an employee OR a licensed independent. In either case, the closer is an extension of the controlling agent and that agent is responsible for the actions of the closer.

We can use the mortgage broker and mortgage lender relationship as an example. A mortgage lender obtains its mortgage applications both through its own employees and through independent licensed mortgage brokers.

There is a contract between the lender and broker spelling out duties and expectations. Since the broker is independent, the broker may have similar contracts with more than one lender.

The mortgage lender eventually has pools of mortgages that have come from both sources and ultimately, the mortgage lender is responsible for the work product.

Does this make sense or am I rambling?

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/7/07 4:10pm
Msg #220144

Re: Reading this whole thread & having to run...

Diane...I don't think I made sense.

I was saying I didn't understand why Lee would question it.

Reply by DianeCipa on 11/7/07 3:53pm
Msg #220138

Re: Reading this whole thread & having to run...

I have to say that the discussions I have read here on Notary Rotary about being disinterested, I think, really go further than necessary. Perhaps someone out there is training that kind of notarial philosophy, but I distinguish between a true personal interest and a business function.

Let's say my family is purchasing a property. I would not notarize a document related to that transaction. If fact, I would make certain that another member of my staff handled the whole thing.

If I am the title agent or licensed independent sub-agent in a transaction, it is perfectly normal and acceptable that I should as part of my function notarize documents.

Reply by Tess on 11/7/07 2:02pm
Msg #220107

Re: M#2119980 Cont -Jerryh from Fl writes:

I have been reading the messages on this forum about licensing and I am in agreement that education and perhaps licensing is worth investigating its merits.

However, what I fail to understand is what problem will we be correcting if licensing is required.

Are signing agents are making to many mistakes in witnessing loan closings?

If we are licensed will we have less problems collecting our hard earned fees from signing, title and lending companies?

Being licensed and having to work under the auspices of a title company or a licensed attorney are we not just substituting "title and attorneys" for "signing companies" as the "middleman."

My last thought is be careful of what we wish for, it may happen. I cannot fathom in my mind that the government does a better job by regulating, versus that of free-market self regulation. That is to say bad NSA agents will not be given opportunties to perform their services if they provide inadequate services.

Reply by DianeCipa on 11/7/07 2:10pm
Msg #220110

Re: M#2119980 Cont -Jerryh from Fl writes:

Having no license means you could be eliminated carte blanche, overnight, if the state notices activity it didn't affirmatively decide was ok in the first place. Now more than ever the eyes of the states are upon every aspect of real estate transactions. If you are in a state that has title agency or producer licensing available, it's a safer place to be in the event things change.

Getting paid is an entirely different subject and one which I'd love to discuss.

Reply by DianeCipa on 11/7/07 2:54pm
Msg #220120

copying reply over from last thread

Licensing creates a starting point for entry into a profession. It may, depending on the state regulation, require testing, continuing education, credit, criminal and background checks, bonding and E & O levels which are higher than those required in the state notarial appointment process.

It raises the bar for those who wish to perform in a more responsible position. The notary act, afterall, is just a portion of what a good closer does AND the job is more than just downloading documents and making copies, even though I agree, downloading docs and handling the logistics can be trying.

First, you have to value your worth in a transaction and then realize that allowing no legal or real distinction between a notary and a title professional/closer diminishes the value of that function.