Posted by Tess on 11/6/07 9:48pm
Msg #219980

Diane Cipa

I was just over on her site. She is trying to activate her membership here and will respond to us directly when she is able.

Is this the start of a new friendship?? Her response to us on her site seems to point that way. Or maybe not, we will have to see.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 11/6/07 9:55pm
Msg #219982

Sounds like a real non-event! n/m

Reply by Tess on 11/6/07 10:16pm
Msg #219984

Re: Charles, I am sure we can count on you to make it

interesting!!!

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 11/7/07 5:18am
Msg #219998

First - if you don't know who she is, please Google. Diane is a highly-visible, extremely popular blogger who has been in title for 30 years and has more credentials than would fit on one piece of paper. She is linked to the rest of those in her industry (title) who have a solid internet presence and are THE most widely-read bloggers in their industry. That's by design, and these people are very actively involved in bringing about change in their industry - and WE are, of course, a side-line of their industry - and THEY are our CLIENTS.

We need to ask ourselves - WHAT IS IT THAT WE WANT? Why would anyone swipe at someone such as Diane, who is offering not only an olive branch but a willingness to participate in some intelligent dialog? Is it preferable to have the title industry blogger-voices speaking against the NSA's as a whole, WITHOUT any intelligent input from us?

I welcome her, and any other person from any part of this whole industry of which I am a part of, to pull up a chair and join in any intelligent discussion.

Reply by Lee/AR on 11/7/07 6:50am
Msg #219999

Agree with Renee... who said it very well! n/m

Reply by DianeCipa on 11/7/07 7:40am
Msg #220004

good morning....I'll a little teapot looking for a tempest?

Yoi..I can't believe I finally made it in.

Reply by DianeCipa on 11/7/07 7:42am
Msg #220005

Re: good morning....I'll a little teapot looking for a tempest?

Charles: thank you for my last chuckle of the night. I agree.

Reply by DianeCipa on 11/7/07 7:51am
Msg #220006

sorry - one more thing

Just in case I forget, here's the rest of the story on that "dirty deed" article if you're interested.

http://titleinsurancetalk.blogspot.com/2006/11/lawrence-walsh-dirty-deed-has-baldwin.html

I'm looking forward to having a good and likely tough dialog. I consider myself a guest on this forum and will conduct myself accordingly.

I'm at work and so will pop back as I can to check for any interest. By way of starting, if you aren't a Radical reader, I ended yesterday's posts with this:


Before I forget, I wanted to say three things that I really love about the notary signing agent community:

1. You are worker bees, like me. NOBODY, I mean NOBODY in my office gets away with not typing or taking out their own garbage. We're ALL grunts and if you don't like it lump it. I remember hiring JT to work on titles with me. He had ALWAYS worked for attorneys and though he was not an attorney himself, he had NEVER typed. The office girls always typed his reports. Guess what? JT learned to type and we learned to love JT.
2. You value your services and expect to be paid. I thought I was alone on the planet on that issue. You are my only kindred spirits. If I EVER get on Notary Rotary, I'll be happy to share all of my collection techniques and stories. Title agents have lots to learn about placing a value on hard work and services rendered - especially services that are fee based and not commissioned sales.
3. You don't take crap from anybody. My kind of people.

Reply by Loretta Reed on 11/7/07 8:35am
Msg #220017

Re: sorry - one more thing

Welcome Diane,
I look forward to hearing more from you. You are very controversial in this business. I remember you quoting me in one of your blogs. The same blog you said that we "eat our young" (mobile notaries). Join in the dinner feast

Reply by DianeCipa on 11/7/07 9:32am
Msg #220031

Re: sorry - one more thing

Thanks, Loretta:

In my family we have fun with words and like to keep things interesting. My niece, who is a wonderful poet and has a poetry blog is known as the big "B" - don't know if you all use that word here - of that genre. I just can't resist stuff like that. My husband thinks I'm WAY too over the top.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 11/7/07 10:14am
Msg #220044

Always glad to oblige. I like people who play with words...

Willard Espy being one of my favorites. Discourse and open dialog are always welcome as far as I am concerned and I hold very little as sacred.

Reply by Teresa Kutz on 11/7/07 8:20am
Msg #220013

Re: good morning, Diane. Glad to see you made it!

I have been following your blogs for some time now and Radical has been very controversial when it comes to your views about us notaries.

My first question is: Have your views changed over time, on the use of mobile notaries helping borrowers to sign their loan documents?


Teresa

Reply by Cipa on 11/7/07 9:11am
Msg #220022

Re: good morning, Diane. Glad to see you made it!

Hi, Teresa. Yes, my views have changed over time.

First, I think I have a better understanding of the make-up of the NSA community and the use of the words "mobile notaries" "signing agents", etc. and so for clarity, when I raise objections to the settlement service provider group that includes notary signing agents and signing services I am ONLY referring to those who are not licensed by the state to act as a closer independently or are not employed by a licensee.

I did not realize at first that many in your community ARE licensed as title producers or some other state recognized category beyond just a notary.

As a closer and an employer of closers, I have always been a mobile closer. I believe a valuable service is performed by meeting consumers in a convenient location at a convenient time. It's a market niche and for those attorneys or title agents unwilling to do it, having a licensed independent community of mobile closers available as sub-contractors would be a benefit to the whole community.

Secondly, I have developed a broader picture of the title industry as a whole of late and I am more inclined to be angry at the industry for so irresponsibly creating a segment of providers that are so vulnerable and so casually dismissed as for instance in the LSI response on the POA issue.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 11/7/07 9:10am
Msg #220021

Someone said the word "dinner" I'M HERE!

Welcome, welcome, welcome! Now instead of all the guessing and assuming and projecting and wondering ... we can just ASK!

My first question - who said "Dinner", is dessert included, and where is it?!

My second question - Diane, if you absolutely HAD to nail it down to one single thing - what one single thing would it be that you wish you could say/give/explain to the NSA industry?

Reply by DianeCipa on 11/7/07 9:25am
Msg #220029

Re: Someone said the word "dinner" I'M HERE!

hmmmm....if you see Cipa and DianeCipa interchangeably it's still me. I'll try to select the full name as I post.

Renee: Where ARE the donuts? Just kidding.

There is only one word - License. Lots of good comes with that word.

License gives the consumer an umbrella of protection. We need as an industry to go state by state and revamp the business of mortgage lending and title insurance to fill the holes and make certain that good licensing is in place to protect consumers. Did you know that some states don't even license title agents? That flabbergasts me. It's harder to get state permission to cut hair than it is to take custody of millions of dollars...and I am not kidding....millions of dollars. I think states who fail to embrace their duty to protect the public are just plain out to lunch.

Now, what does license give to you? It gives you power. Right now notary signing agents are vulnerable and frankly, I think title underwriters are taking full advantage of that vulnerability. They are kicking you around because they can.

Before going on, let me say that signing services perform no valuable function whatsoever and in my opinion are in absolute violation of RESPA and so I'd like to suggest a world where signing services do not exist and so don't markup the fee and suck the blood out the transaction that should be yours. I'd also like to suggest a world in which you might be able to collect your fee when you walk through the door to the consumer's home.

All we have to do is embrace and codify the concept that your function has value beyond the business of notary and that's what licensing is all about.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 11/7/07 10:23am
Msg #220045

License also give you something else that I, as a mortgage

broker would appreciate and that is consistency. With a licensed person you know that they have a certain baseline of knowledge and that would make me more comfortable. Licensing also carries responsibility something that more NSA's could certainly use. The level of responsibility in this business is very low and I strongly believe that contractors should have their licenses at stake to assure responsiblity. NSAs need to be held accountable for their actions.

Reply by DianeCipa on 11/7/07 10:36am
Msg #220046

Re: License also give you something else that I, as a mortga

I agree, Charles. Licensing is a government's lowest bar for entry into a profession serving the public. Licensing doesn't say you'll be great but it does say you'll be minimally adequate.

I recall reading a previous thread on Notary Rotary in which a MD licensed title producer was outraged that an unlicensed notary was performing closings in her state. She was right to be outraged because she was having to compete with a person who had NOT proved themselves minimally adequate and that's not good for the public and it's not good for the industry.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 11/7/07 10:47am
Msg #220049

Can't disagree with that! n/m

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 11/7/07 10:41am
Msg #220047

Can someone w/ TPL spell out what it takes?

I'm in a state that apparently isn't going to make researching the AVAILABLE licenses very easy, but that's what I'm doing ... researching.

I do think it's a stepping stone towards a perfect world - taking something that EXISTS, and turning it over and around and looking at it from all perspectives to learn about it's strength's and weaknesses.

It's not a topic I know anything about ... at the moment, but the reason I want to learn is because I do believe that even in a perfect world, it would take at least a couple years to bring about any kind of real change. At the rate things are imploding and being legislated upon and discussed in boardrooms ... I have to really, really wonder what waiting a couple of years might result in.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 11/7/07 10:49am
Msg #220051

In California Title Producers are regulated by the Dept of

Insurance and I believe that they are in most States since they are dealing with the sales and administration of an insurance product.

Reply by WDMD on 11/7/07 11:03am
Msg #220053

Re: Can someone w/ TPL spell out what it takes?

In Maryland to become a title producer you must take a 30 hour pre-licensing course, then pass the state exam, then acquire a $100,000 surety bond. You must also have 16 hours continuing education credits every 2 years.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 11/7/07 12:00pm
Msg #220076

It is my belief that closings should be done by a Title

Producer instead of being haded of to a Signing Service and just any notary. A title producer has the training and a lot at stake in doing closings a lot more than any NSA. I think that would be a very simple legislative procedure, just make it a requirement. There are already adequate requirements for Title Producers. We don't need another category.

Reply by MichiganAl on 11/7/07 11:38am
Msg #220072

I'm glad you decided to jump into the fire

I only have a minute, but I wanted to say welcome. I've recently, I think, developed a little better understanding of your issues regarding signing agents and our role in mortgage transactions. Though you've been harsh in the past (and believe me, I'm not one to talk), it seems to me that you've been open to viewing things from our side of the tracks, and your willingness to be here shows that. It's hard not to respect that.

Quick comment about licensing - I don't disagree about the need for signing agents to be licensed. I'm just not sure what license might apply in Michigan (and I know Renee is checking into this). I don't believe we have a TPL in Michigan. For now, the closest we might have is a property & casualty license. I've held both a P & C and life & health license. I can tell you there's very little in the course or exam remotely related to what we do. If that's what it takes to offer some sense of credibility to the profession, then I've got no problem in re-obtaining those licenses. But as far as a learning tool and as far as being able to use it as a way to assure others that I have the knowledge needed to perform my duties, it's probably worthless.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 11/7/07 9:15am
Msg #220024

also, about my public lesson in humility ...

Due to some kind of &%^$ glitch WAY beyond anything I can even come close to understanding ... This morning, I posted an APPROPRIATE reply onto Diane's Blog, but what was actually published by Blogger was something I'd posted to her blog a long, long time ago. This isn't the first time it did this to me, either - it's tried to post that SAME thing on other people's blogs.

Until Diane sees fit to delete it - I'll just have to absorb as much from the lesson as I can, as I'm hugely embarressed.

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/7/07 10:03am
Msg #220042

Re: also, about my public lesson in humility ... hate those.

Blogger/blogspot has been known to give me fits.

btw, Renee' - The advertising letter/spammer who attempted to create the mini-drama probably didn't see things working out exactly like this....that we will have a learning experience through an exchange with a professional from another sector of the industry rather than whatever it was that her post was supposed to have elicited.

Reply by MichiganAl on 11/7/07 10:49am
Msg #220050

Isn't irony delicious? n/m

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 11/7/07 12:53pm
Msg #220091

OMG - found the problem ...

I use RoboForm .... do not ask me how THIS happened, but I was just going through and deleting anything to do with Blogger from my computer, and ....

... found that inside RoboForm, it had copied that old post into the 'log-in' info for Blogger!

lol!!! What a riot. Well, that's one problem solved today!

Reply by DianeCipa on 11/7/07 1:35pm
Msg #220104

Re: OMG - found the problem ...

Feel free to send me that comment. I'll be happy to post it.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 11/7/07 10:58am
Msg #220052

Actually Brenda there have been professionals from other

sectors of the business here all along. Philip/TX is also a REALTOR, DickB owned an insurance agency and is also a REALTOR, JohnNorCal is a Tax Preparer (licensed in CA), Lisa Prestagard is also a real estate agent, Loretta Reed is a licensed Title Producer in her State, Tony Negrete, Sylvia, and Cherie own Signing Services and there are many many othere like you and I here who wear many hats. The unfortuante thing about this forum(and the NSA business) is there are many who have little background in anything at all and just obtained a very easy comission. They think that it automatically makes them peers and that is just not true as evidenced by some of their posts.

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/7/07 11:07am
Msg #220058

Re: Actually Brenda there have been professionals from other

I know that about all those folks. Maybe I wasn't clear.

My point was that the spammer didn't get what she wanted...she was trying to create a common enemy in D. Cipa with members here...it didn't go very far...Cipa, a member of another sector who has NOT previously been a member of our board comes over and starts dialogue...irony, like Al said.

btw...I'm thinking that Phillip in Tx is in the insurance biz.

Reply by Phillip/TX on 11/7/07 11:09am
Msg #220060

Re: Actually Brenda there have been professionals from other

That is correct Brenda, I am in the insurance industry, but have worked with and for Title in the past. Was Portfolio Manager for a specialty lender as well with over 4000 loans under my control.

I had not read the other post or would have made the correction myself... sorry you had to for me Brenda.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 11/7/07 12:07pm
Msg #220079

Sorry I called you a REALTOR Philip,

I am also a licensed insurance agent now in several States.

Reply by Phillip/TX on 11/7/07 1:12pm
Msg #220096

That is okay Charles, I have been called worse!!! n/m

Reply by DianeCipa on 11/7/07 12:18pm
Msg #220081

OK on these lines, in PA here's how I would visualize

fitting into current licensing.

Closings are considered the practice of law and so only attorneys may perform the service unless:

1. You are a licensed mortgage lender closing your own transaction.
2. You are a licensed real estate agent closing your own transaction - typically a cash deal as mortgage transactions would have conflicts.
3. You are a licensed title agent/insurer closing a transaction for which you are issuing a title insurance policy.

In PA title agent/insurers work under TIRBOP guidelines and these allow for more than one agent to share work on one transaction.

It seems to me that title agents could sub-contract other licensed agents who are independent closers.

I can tell you what to study to take the test. If you have a reasonable background in either lending or real estate and study the jackets of all policies and commitment, you'll likely pass. I understand many attorneys do NOT pass the first time because they assume they do not have to study.

It's not that hard, but it's at least a bar setting a minimum level of ability and knowledge.

I know now from following the posts here for some time that there are many notary signing agents who have extensive experience in either mortgage lending, title, or real estate. Even those who have learned through trial and error how to be good closers and have read and comprehended documents should NOT be afraid of finding a place in a regulatory structure.

There are incompetents in every field. Even licensing won't rid an industry of that reality but licensing gives you and the public a home and a structure in which to work together. It provides a framework of expectations.

It's not about just being a notary. If it were, having the bar set at that level would be reasonable. You are serving the public at a much higher level of responsibility.

Reply by SueW/Tn on 11/7/07 12:42pm
Msg #220085

Welcome Diane

Sorry I'm a little late getting in but I'm very excited about these concepts and eager to absorb the information you are willing to share with us. I personally thank you for spending time with us and look forward to learning.

Reply by LisaWI on 11/7/07 1:00pm
Msg #220093

Re: A Different Perspective on This

First off, I want to welcome you Diane. I have read your blogs with interest and must say you definitely know how to rouse a crowd. I am thrilled to see everyone coming together and working as a cohesive unit. And to be in agreement with everyone else and you, I believe our industry needs some changes. And these changes could be for the better of everyone, the consumer and the NSA’s.

The subject I want to bring up isn’t the subject at hand for this thread, but it goes hand in hand with this profession. And that is the Notary portion of being an NSA. I believe it is equally important in our roles as NSA’s to know Notary Law and procedure to also protect the consumer. I bring this up because the industry could and might make changes to the part of being a Signing Agent, as you all are talking about, but how could this truly be effective if one does not know how to act as a Notary Public?

I say this because it doesn’t take much to become a Notary Public in a lot of states including my state which is primarily where I am coming up with this. For example in my state there is no testing for the Notary, and it is not required to keep a journal. So given that, to what degree of protection is the consumer getting if licensing is only going to cover the Signing Agent part of our profession? Shouldn’t the Notary portion also be addressed?

Reply by DianeCipa on 11/7/07 1:32pm
Msg #220102

Re: A Different Perspective on This

Hi again to everyone and thank you so much for your kind welcome.

As a licensed title producer, part of the job is being a good notary but it's an important part of the job. Establishing identity is a key component of an insured title transaction. I am always impressed by the discussions I have read in this forum on the subject. I wish all title agents would take the matter so seriously.

If the closer doesn't affix a legible seal or messes up the dates of documents destined for the courthouse, it causes extra work for everyone. We have a post closing audit prior to recordation and we often catch those errors before they go out the door. If not, the mistake is usually caught at the courthouse and we send our closer to the courthouse to fix their work. We cover 34 counties and sometimes it's a long drive but it's important to step up to the plate and fix mistakes.

Reply by JerryhFL on 11/7/07 1:36pm
Msg #220105

Re: OK on these lines, in PA here's how I would visualize

I have been reading the messages on this forum about licensing and I am in agreement that education and perhaps licensing is worth investigating its merits.

However, what I fail to understand is what problem will we be correcting if licensing is required.

Are signing agents are making to many mistakes in witnessing loan closings?

If we are licensed will we have less problems collecting our hard earned fees from signing, title and lending companies?

Being licensed and having to work under the auspices of a title company or a licensed attorney are we not just substituting "title and attorneys" for "signing companies" as the "middleman."

My last thought is be careful of what we wish for, it may happen. I cannot fathom in my mind that the government does a better job by regulating, versus that of free-market self regulation. That is to say bad NSA agents will not be given opportunties to perform their services if they provide inadequate services.

Reply by DianeCipa on 11/7/07 2:18pm
Msg #220111

Re: OK on these lines, in PA here's how I would visualize

Licensing creates a starting point for entry into a profession. It may, depending on the state regulation, require testing, continuing education, credit, criminal and background checks, bonding and E & O levels which are higher than those required in the state notarial appointment process.

It raises the bar for those who wish to perform in a more responsible position. The notary act, afterall, is just a portion of what a good closer does AND the job is more than just downloading documents and making copies, even though I agree, downloading docs and handling the logistics can be trying.

First, you have to value your worth in a transaction and then realize that allowing no legal or real distinction between a notary and a title professional/closer diminishes the value of that function.