Posted by Teresa Kutz on 11/12/07 12:49pm
Msg #220854

Diane Cipa

It seems to me (correct me if I am wrong) that your whole outlook on what we do, has not changed much. You:

1. Have always thought we should be licensed

2. Have always(It would get the courts attention, and not to our benefit I should add, if WE also agreed)said we are acting as a closer

3. Have always wanted more dialog so your views would be listened to.

I am of the thought that if we push for a different licensing NOW (when all the new laws are being written), that it would only take one stroke of a pen to make us all go away (as in attorney only states) then it would take, to have a separate licensing argued in for us and written in the laws and then tested.

I am also aware that honey attracts people better then bitter lemons, but, when you say you would hire independent licensed title agents at $150.00 per signing, while you pay every expense including the vehicles your employees use, health insurance, etc, for them and pay them the same fee as us.. We would be putting out a lot more expense and getting the same fee, and in your company, the same work, as they do per closing (Title Agents close the loans). I feel something is wrong with that picture! By the way, every TC ad for closers I have read, include HUD preparation and post closing duties in the closer’s responsibility.

I only hope that when we all step back and look at the big picture, we will have chosen our own way of helping and not harming anyone, including the borrowers!

I will not say anymore on this subject, everyone will hopefully, make the right choice for their selves!!!!!

Reply by DianeCipa on 11/12/07 1:17pm
Msg #220858

Hi, Teresa: Yes, you are correct on all three counts. Here's a post from last February:

http://radicaltitletalk.blogspot.com/2007/02/guess-who-started-notary-as-closer.html#links

Real property conveyance and finance transactions involve pre-closing work and post-closing work and the actual closing. YOU are performing the actual closing. The preparation of the HUD-1 is a pre-closing function. The disbursement of funds and recordation of documents are post closing functions.

I didn't say I would hire independent licensed title agents at $150. I said I pay my on-staff closers $150 and I said I would hire independent licensed closers if my staff was insufficient. I did not discuss duties or price in that kind of arrangement.

I see that you are based in PA. I presume you are not employed by a licensed agent and are not a licensed agent yourself. You must understand that I suffer the same frustration as those licensed title producers in MD who cried foul over unlicensed notaries performing closings in their state.

We have licensing in PA. Whether you choose to embrace currently available options or create a new form, that's your choice.

Reply by WDMD on 11/12/07 1:33pm
Msg #220861

"You must understand that I suffer the same frustration as those licensed title producers in MD who cried foul over unlicensed notaries performing closings in their state."


Does PA require title producers to perform closings? Or can notaries do them legally in PA? I would submit that if notaries can perform closings in PA legally that there is a difference than the situation in MD.

Reply by DianeCipa on 11/12/07 1:47pm
Msg #220864

In PA you must fall into one of these categories:

1. attorney
2. licensed title agent and employees/must be closing in connection to the issuance of a title policy
3. mortgage lender and employees closing its own loan transaction
4. real estate agent under restrictions may close a transaction - typically a cash deal with no title insurance

Any person fitting into those licensed categories may also be a notary for the purpose of witnessing certain documents.

Reply by WDMD on 11/12/07 1:52pm
Msg #220865

So a typical un-affiliated notary cannot perform witness closings in PA? I had never heard that before.

Reply by Steven Carter on 11/12/07 2:09pm
Msg #220868

Notaries in PA

Notaries can most definately do closings in PA without any affiliation with title company or attornies. I dont know where you get your information from but it is incorrect. The state run classes to become a notary also discusses notaries doing mortgage closings.

Reply by DianeCipa on 11/12/07 3:20pm
Msg #220873

Re: Notaries in PA

I have to get a copy of the most recent title insurer licensing law and will post it. But this post:

http://radicaltitletalk.blogspot.com/2007/01/well-this-is-interesting.html

which followed this post:

http://radicaltitletalk.blogspot.com/2007/01/letter-sent-by-e-mail-to-pa-dept-of.html

gives you the gist of it.

Reply by sjp on 11/12/07 3:35pm
Msg #220877

Re: Notaries in PA

I look forward to see the ACTUAL title insurer licensing law regarding notaries performing signings in PA. The post you listed is your own personal blog. Not the actual LAW.

Reply by Carolyn Bodley on 11/12/07 3:52pm
Msg #220880

Re: Notaries in PA

I don't know anything about Pennsylvania, however, as has already been pointed out, that the above two articles are from your own blog. I can point people to my blog, as well, but it doesn't mean that what I write about is law.

Doing a google of Pennsylvania signing agents -- there's a whole LOT of people performing signings, and have for a long time, that are not licensed per *your* title insurer licensing law.

Reply by sjp on 11/12/07 4:06pm
Msg #220882

Re: Notaries in PA

That's what I say ... "SHOW ME THE LAW"!

Reply by DianeCipa on 11/12/07 7:22pm
Msg #220911

notes from the PAN site about PA signing agent courses

"The Commonwealth of PA approves and certifies educational providers on their "Mandatory Notarial Educational Course" for Notaries Public in PA. This course is mandatory for all new Notaries Public. The Commonwealth does not recognize the "Signing Agent" course. Therefore they do not accredit these courses."

http://www.panotarypublic.com/signingagents.html

And why do you think the Commonwealth does not recognize or accredit signing agent courses for notaries?

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 11/12/07 8:08pm
Msg #220917

Re: notes from the PAN site about PA signing agent courses

"And why do you think the Commonwealth does not recognize or accredit signing agent courses for notaries?"

I don't know of any state that recognizes or accredits signing agent courses for notaries.
But that doesn't mean that notaries cannot be signing agents.
IIRC the term "signing agent" was coined by Susan Pense (National Association of Signing Agents)

Reply by Marlene/USNA on 11/29/07 8:29am
Msg #223532

Re: notes from the PAN site about PA signing agent courses

Even though I'm late to the party, I want to jump in here and point out that the link Diane provided does NOT go to the Commonwealth of PA's website - it goes to the private website of a signing agent.

As far as I know, nothing on the state's website addresses notary signing agents. You can extrapolate all you like on a statement like "And why do you think the Commonwealth does not recognize or accredit signing agent courses for notaries?" but until the Secretary puts something in writing, I'll not assume anything. I could also wonder why the Commonwealth does not recognize or accredit hunting classes even tho they issue hunting licenses.

Reply by Marlene/USNA on 11/29/07 8:38am
Msg #223534

It's not even the PAN website as she said. . .

I just noticed that. . .be careful whose "authority" you believe here.

Reply by PAW on 11/12/07 3:39pm
Msg #220879

I don't necessarily agree with your terminology, but do agree in principle. You stated:

>>>Real property conveyance and finance transactions involve pre-closing work and post-closing work and the actual closing. YOU are performing the actual closing. The preparation of the HUD-1 is a pre-closing function. The disbursement of funds and recordation of documents are post closing functions.<<<

I submit, that the function of a closing is all that is mentioned, but the sitting with the seller/buyer/borrower/homeowner is not the actual closing, but merely another part of the closing. A "closing" is a process, which includes many, many steps and functions, including the "talking" or "witnessing" portion that we, as signing agents, perform. A file is not considered "closed" (when the closing process is complete) until all the pieces, including disbursement and recording, are completed.

The definition of a "closing" is almost as nebulous as that of a "signing agent", in that the definition has no solid national acceptance (that I'm aware of) and is therefore defined by the entity using the word.

I could not find any definitive definition of "closing" or even "closer" in ALTA documentation nor in the two underwriting manuals that I have. Different title companies have provided different "job descriptions" when they are looking for "witness closers", "remote closers", "signing agents" and just plain "notaries". Most have a common thrust but some companies expect and/or demand certain things that other companies expressly forbid or at least do not require of the <_____________> (person completing the task - fill in the blank as to their "title".

Reply by Loretta Reed on 11/12/07 4:08pm
Msg #220884

Hey Diane.....

Most of the people on here are signing agents, mobile notaries, whatever. It sounded as if you were saying that notaries cannot do a witness closing in PA. I, as a signing agent, could care less about who prepares the hud and who takes care of the title insurance. We are talking about whether or not a notary can meet borrowers with their loan docs and having them signed and witnessed by a notary and not an attorney. I am a licensed title producer in Maryland and every notary here better be licensed if they are doing witness closings.

I hope we do not get too anal about definitions on here. It's just not worth it.

Reply by DianeCipa on 11/12/07 4:16pm
Msg #220885

here's the law

Just for fun and to be fair. I am posting this without reading it. I haven't read this law since it was passed so this will be an interesting test of my memory. So......let's see.......

http://www.palrb.us/pamphletlaws/19001999/1995/0/act/0079.pdf

Reply by Loretta Reed on 11/12/07 4:18pm
Msg #220886

Re: here's the law

Someone else with some time, please read it for me. I have closings to do.

This is insane.

Reply by Loretta Reed on 11/12/07 4:24pm
Msg #220888

Re: here's the law...Just give me the page and paragraph

that says a notary has to be licensed to do a witness signing.

I am all for it but I know alot of notaries that do not have license and are doing witness closings in PA. It is not an attorney state.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 11/12/07 4:53pm
Msg #220895

Loretta, its called obfuscation...

On my post regarding YSP and SRP the link thrown out only mentions YSP in passing without ever going into details and it was supposed to be the difinitive statement. Its just another red herring. Tie then up looking at huge amounts of material and then you can move on. I've noticed that many of the authorities cited tend to be her own blog!

Reply by DianeCipa on 11/12/07 4:58pm
Msg #220896

Re: here's the law...Just give me the page and paragraph

OK, well I'm done reading. I see three sections that tie in and I'll have to get the TIRBOP manual for you to tie into the fee area.

On page 4, Section 724. (2) (a) & (b) defines a title insurance agent including the ability to perform certain acts on behalf of the title insurer. These acts include: "handles escrow, settlements or closings:

On page 8, Section 739.1 conditions that a title insurance agent may operate as an escrow, settlement or closing agent, in connection with the issuance of a title insurance policy, provided.......

[This section is key because it codifies that a title insurance agent may not operate as an escrow, settlement or closing agent UNLESS it is in connection with the issuance of a title insurance policy. This is important because that distinction specifically ties back to a supreme court ruling that gives title insurers the right do perform duties that would otherwise be considered the unauthorized practice of law. All actions MUST connect to a title insurance policy to avoid UPL.]

Page 9, Section 739.2 Division of fees language allows fees to be split among licensed title insurance agents and insurers but you see no other class of person or entity meant to share in a division of fees. If you tie this into TIRBOP, you see that regulated Charges include settlement or closing fee and every other charge And just to back up to the Act 1995-79 language, Section 737 and Section 739 wherein all rates and fees must be filed with the Commonwealth. TIRBOP is the rate approval vehicle and their manual is our rate and fee bible.

Do I think title insurers are ignoring this law? Yes, just like they have ignored RESPA and lots of other laws. The title insurance industry stinks as much as the lending industry in their disregard for laws and regulations.

Reply by Loretta Reed on 11/12/07 5:03pm
Msg #220897

Re: here's the law...Just give me the page and paragraph

All I can say is, that unless they have a law stating that notaries must have a Title Producers License and enforce it like Maryland, notaries in PA will continue to do the closings.

Just like VA, I know that they are going to make all notaries become Crespa certified, in order to do witness closings so I have begun that process. I am staying one step ahead. Right now, like I said in a previous post, we must become diversified.

Reply by WDMD on 11/12/07 5:26pm
Msg #220900

Re: here's the law...Just give me the page and paragraph

You would think that if notaries were not allowed to conduct witness closings unsupervised, that the notary handbook in PA would mention that prohibition like Marylands handbook does.

Loretta, are you saying that you think Maryland is going to require CRESPA certification?

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/12/07 6:08pm
Msg #220903

**The definition of a "closing" is almost as nebulous as that of a "signing agent", in that the definition has no solid national acceptance (that I'm aware of) and is therefore defined by the entity using the word.**

That's kinda what I am thinking. Like Loretta, I try to back off of these kinds of discussion because if you push hard enough someone will be compelled to force an authorative opinion.

I can't be sure but I am thinking that's what happened when the Tx. Constitution was amended to allow second mortgages / equity lines. A committee was given the final authority to on all things related to the new changes. Until then, lines were blurred...a little...enough so that lots of things went by for awhile.


Further, where Paul says **I submit, that the function of a closing is all that is mentioned, but the sitting with the seller/buyer/borrower/homeowner is not the actual closing, but merely another part of the closing. A "closing" is a process, which includes many, many steps and functions, including the "talking" or "witnessing" portion that we, as signing agents, perform. A file is not considered "closed" (when the closing process is complete) until all the pieces, including disbursement and recording, are completed.**

I tend to agree with him from a Texas perspective that the sitting down with the borrowers is only a step in the closing and that the real closing is involved with the disbursing of funds and the final handling of the file.

I don't have a dog in this hunt...my livelihood isn't in PA, nor tied too snuggly to signings. I'd be fine if I never did another signing...but this is just the way I see it based on my experience and what I see day to day.

Reply by DianeCipa on 11/12/07 6:32pm
Msg #220905

I don't disagree with anyone who says the crux of the argument is in the definitions. It surely is.

The original draft of this amendment had different language that I can't remember but it must have been much more strict. At the time we thought the language implied that mortgage lenders might not be permitted to close their own loans. I was part of the group who lobbied for a change. We successfully amended Section 724 and also added the waiver of fidelity bonding for small agencies. We surely did not consider that there was a part of a closing that went outside of a licensed entity or we'd have dealt with it. We had never heard of witness closings or NSAs.

I guess that's why we have the amendment process, isn't it.

Reply by DianeCipa on 11/12/07 7:43pm
Msg #220913

Yes, it's all just a matter of semantics, isn't it?

http://radicaltitletalk.blogspot.com/2007/11/yes-its-all-just-matter-of-semantics.html

Reply by Stamper_WI on 11/12/07 8:13pm
Msg #220919

Ultimately the liabilities connected with the closing rests on the title company. This is what concerns Diane. However, the closing continues after we return the documents. It is up to them to screen their notaries and not rely on 2nd hand sources such as fly by night SS's. Shame on those who allow the ss's to find the random notary to hand hold through the signing in hopes that all signitures and notarizations are complete. Those companies deserve the grief they get.
Ultimately our behavior at the table is governed by notary law. Stepping over into the "closer" and UPL territory is another whole issue. Diane pointed out that the UPL is covered as far as it concerns the TC. So it is with Realtors and their contracts. The E&O insurance companies have already addressed this with signing agents. We do not have the same E&O ( for the most part) that those with TPL's. It is also obvious that some signing agent courses are much better than others as well. That shows the inconsistences in the education and training. That is what is needed, consistency in training and CE. This does not need to be a state by state thing but accredation guidlines. It is obvious that at least one major provider of signing agent coursework is missing the boat and actually creating more problems with the quality of their graduate's knowledge and work. Lenders and TC's need to input into this and must also educated themselves about notary laws as far as acceptable acknowledgements and jurats for the states they do business in. There are a lot of things that need to be covered in creating the ideal field signing situation.
I am not so sure the TPL would cover it all.

Reply by Marlene/USNA on 11/29/07 8:43am
Msg #223536

>I guess that's why we have the amendment process, isn't it.<

And blogs, apparently. . .

Reply by MikeC/NY on 11/12/07 9:09pm
Msg #220930

Here's how it works in NY

Mortgage bankers are licensed; mortgage brokers are not (they are registered with the state banking department, but there is no oversight of their employees - that changes in January, when brokers and loan officers will have to be licensed). Notaries Public are commissioned and licensed by the SOS - there is a test, and you have to be able to show you at least understand notary law before they set you loose on an unsuspecting public....but anyone who has ever had to deal with a bank notary can tell you that most don't have a clue....

Title agencies are regulated by the state, but title closers - the folks who actually sit at the closing table representing the title company and make sure that all exceptions to title are cleared - are not. Some title companies don't even pay their closers - the closers work for tips from the buyer and pickup fees (for sending checks to pay off liens) from the seller. Some closings are worth $50, others are worth $500 or more.

While I agree that licensing and "setting the bar" is a good idea, it ain't happening anytime soon in NY - we have a legislative process that makes glaciers seem fast. I'm sure other states have similar problems - great ideas always die in committee. I would support some sort of licensing for signing agents, but the reality is that it's a non-issue here.