Posted by Leon_CO on 11/30/07 1:32pm
Msg #223805

Quiz: When to disobey instructions

Is there ever a time when a notary signing agent should disobey instructions from a title company? I think so.

If they tell you to do something that is against notary law, you should not comply. But what if it's something that seems pretty innocuous, such as telling you that you don't have to print out a set of copies for the borrower?

Your first reaction might be to think that this is great. Save wear and tear on your printer. Save toner. But most of all, you save a lot of time.

But notary signing agents, although we're supposed to follow instructions, should also be able to think for themselves, and determine when instructions should be complied with or not.

That is the situation I found myself in today. I have a closing this afternoon at 4:30. The title company sent me the edocs. In the email she said, "I will provide the borrowers a complete copy package of all documentation next week so copies for them will not be required of you."

The borrowers have a 3-day right of rescission. That is the time to go over their documents. How can they do that if they don't have a copy of what they signed?

So I did what I think is the right thing. I printed a set of copies for the borrower. Yes, it's probably a waste of paper, since they will be getting a copy ... ** next week.**

I don't know what the rest of you would do in this situation. But that's what I did.

Good luck.

Reply by HudsonBayCA on 11/30/07 1:36pm
Msg #223806

Re: Quiz: When to disobey instructions - Good

I have trusted the escrow officer when it was said not to make a copy for the borrower and ended up at some local Kinkos with the borrower to make copies because borrower would not sign any other way. So, to make an extra set is a good thing.

Reply by Pat/IL on 11/30/07 2:06pm
Msg #223808

"I will provide the borrowers a complete copy package of all documentation next week so copies for them will not be required of you."

It may be that the borrower requested signed copies, which the title company agreed to send. I think the key words here are "not required". You didn't diobey anything in this case and you did the right thing by making the copies.

Reply by Negrete on 11/30/07 2:18pm
Msg #223811

Re: Quiz: You did the right this Leon.

I never ask my notaries to NOT print a copy of the documents even if the title co tells me to not print a copy.

How can the borrower have the time to read the documents without a copy to know if they want to exercise their RTC ?

I say you did the right thing making a copy.

Anthony J Negrete

Reply by SharonH/OH on 11/30/07 3:27pm
Msg #223820

Re: Quiz: You did the right this Leon.

I agree. I've also done this for a purchase closing with no RTC. I told title that I was uncomfortable asking the borrower to sign documents and not be provided a copy, even with the promise of "signed copies next week." They didn't object, although I think they thought it was silly. Maybe it's my law office background, when I got into the habit of making copies of EVERYTHING! Seems safer for all concerned.

Reply by TRG_wy on 11/30/07 3:50pm
Msg #223823

Re: Quiz: You did the right this Leon.

I agree -

I would never goto or leave a closing without the borrower having a set of what they signed.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 11/30/07 4:14pm
Msg #223824

If for no other reason, the signing may well take much

longer if you do not tell them, at the beginning, that
you will be leaving them copies of all dox that they will be
signing.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 11/30/07 4:40pm
Msg #223829

No instructions there to disobey

The email said "copies for them will not be required of you." That's a statement.

It did not say "do not make copies for the borrower." That would be an instruction.

I would have made the copies rather than running the risk of having a problem at the table. And assuming there is an RTC involved, we all know that the borrowers must get two copies each of the RTC and a copy of the TIL at the table, so I suspect that in this case either a) the transaction wasn't subject to an RTC, or b) the TC is somehow unaware of the regulations (not likely).

If instructed not to make copies, I would make sure the borrowers knew that before I left for the signing - why walk into a potential problem?

Reply by Les_CO on 11/30/07 4:40pm
Msg #223830

Congratulations on your decision Leon!
I think I would have done exactly as instructed.
Your diligence just cost the borrower three years in which to exercise their right to cancel. Perhaps saving the lender a lot of problems. But…who are we to judge? Do we have a fiduciary relationship with the borrower? The Lender? The Title Company? The SS? As a NSA (Notary Signing Agent) we need to KNOW the law, and be sure of ALL the ramifications that could be attributed to our actions.

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/30/07 8:59pm
Msg #223843

No matter what the instructions on the copies

I always make the copies. Instructions to not provide the copies come along now and then.

Like Bob said, when they have a set of their own copies coming immediately afterwards they get it done quicker.

Reply by Hugh Nations Signing Agents of Austin on 11/30/07 10:21pm
Msg #223849

A really good reason for making copies has been overlooked in the focus on the RTC. Without borrower copies, the signing agent has no backup copies for substitution if necessary.

Reply by Ernest__CT on 12/1/07 1:23am
Msg #223854

Well done, Leon! n/m

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 12/1/07 3:53am
Msg #223858

I also suspect there's a good possibility that the schedulers talking to us aren't always that well-rounded in their knowledge; might be new, might be that since they'll be making a post-close copy, they're just trying to be helpful to you. Might be that they just don't know what they don't know ...

Might be they just need someone to be helpful right back, by shedding some light on the consequences of what they're suggesting.

Reply by BrendaTx on 12/1/07 6:33am
Msg #223861

Written instructions from an established title company

has been prevalent in my experience. This company has offices in several states/locations.

"Do not need to make a copy for the borrowers. We will provide them a signed copy via email or via mail. Please find out which they want and as soon as we receive the package we will make copies of the documents with their signatures on them and send them to their borrower."

Yep...the RTC has expired by then, also.

And, these were edocs.

Reply by Leon_CO on 12/1/07 7:43am
Msg #223867

Well, the closing went well. But it's a good thing that I made copies. The borrower's wife is the Operations Manager at a mortgage company. She was expecting to get copies.

Renee, this wasn't a scheduler. These instructions were from the title company -- the escrow officer.

I once did a closing in which the borrower was a real estate attorney. We did the closing at his law office. He insisted on making copies of all the documents. I told him that I printed a set of copies for him. No, he wanted ** signed ** copies. At the time it seemed like a pain in the butt, waiting for him to make the copies (no, he didn't have a Kinkos high-speed copier). But I can understand his point of view. If someone came back to him and said that he failed to sign a document, he has a record of what he signed.

Reply by ssqu/ky on 12/1/07 8:05am
Msg #223868

I had a purchase signing were an Attorney was present..when I gave the copies to the buyer the Attorney stated "those copies are worthless because there are no signatures on them".

Stephanie

Reply by WDMD on 12/1/07 10:05am
Msg #223873

"I had a purchase signing were an Attorney was present..when I gave the copies to the buyer the Attorney stated "those copies are worthless because there are no signatures on them". "

Tell them after you leave they are welcome to sign their copies.

Reply by BrendaTx on 12/1/07 10:44am
Msg #223877

Good answer, but I kind of understand their concerns. One thing about edocs...I can always tell them that I personally made the copy and it is a true and correct one.

If I were the borrower I would accept the unsigned copy and call to request/demand a signed copy by email or snail mail. But that's just me. I definitely understand the "signed" vs "unsigned" copy dilemma.

I dunno...I guess if they acted suspicious about it (and that's only happened a couple of times) I'd let them choose the copy they signed. I have offered that and it alleviated fears immediately. (Oh no, that's okay. We believe you.)

Suspicious borrowers don't surprise me at all. My parents grew up in the depression and were the most suspicious people I have ever known about signing a document. Funny thing about those my folks though, they are also conditioned to believe if it is published in a book, advertised on television, stated on the "news" or in their morning newspaper IT IS FACT. Oh yeah, if "they" say it, it's also UNDISPUTABLE FACT...whoever the heck "they" is...my mother will believe the mysterious "they" before she believes me. LOL

Reply by Hugh Nations Signing Agents of Austin on 12/1/07 11:54am
Msg #223880

I routinely tell the borrowers after a closing to request copies of:

1. The appraisal;

2. The survey; and

3. Fully executed and file-stamped copies.

They need those regardless of whether they have the borrower's copies from the closing.

Reply by Demore on 12/1/07 12:19pm
Msg #223883

Hello! Leon,

I see the point you are trying to make about "when to disobey instructions."
I have stated in my profile that I follow the status of my state. In my state, I have to make sure the signers will have two copies of RTC whether a lender, a signing agency, a title companies et cetera agree or not.

I take this law very seriously and understood that in a loan docs package some requirements are state law and others are mortgage requirements. Because I suppose to compromise by making sure their instructions are following. If I have any doubt or their instruction does not match I will make sure to communicate with them. I emphasize that I value communication and please clarify my concerns by send them an email and/or calling them for clarification. Most the time if it is necessary, I mentioned that in this state. . . . Usually, they accept my inquiry without much of a problem.

I hope it helped you -

Reply by Shannon_Va on 12/1/07 4:55pm
Msg #223904

Not sure how true it is, but I was once told that if they BO is not given their copies of a RTC, they can actually cancel up to three years later. Maybe that is just here in Va.
Who knows'

Reply by Maureen_nh on 12/1/07 5:17pm
Msg #223906

That is RESPA .
By law in my state I have to also leave the borrowers with a copy of the note and Mortgage at the signing.

Reply by Demore on 12/1/07 7:37pm
Msg #223925

Hi! Shannon,

According to Darrel McGraw, West Virginia Attorney General stated that Federal law requires that consumers be given notice of an unconditional right to cancel a sale within three days, sometimes known as a “cooling-off period,” when a sale takes place at their homes or at places other than a fixed retail business establishment “

I hope this helps! -

Reply by Maureen_nh on 12/1/07 9:39pm
Msg #223933

That is news to me
I didn't know sales were covered, was he confused between sales and re-fis?

Reply by JK/TX on 12/1/07 10:02pm
Msg #223934

I think that law is referring to products..... not real estate (?)

Reply by Demore on 12/1/07 10:51pm
Msg #223936

Please, check this out--West Virginia’s three-day right-to-cancel works and can be rescinded under the federal Truth in Lending Act.

Hope this helps -

Reply by Les_CO on 12/3/07 7:53pm
Msg #224064

Who knows?

I do, you should!

Code of Federal Regulations, Title 12 Volume 3 Part 226 TRUTH IN LENGING (Regulation Z)
Sec 226.15 Right of recission.

Look it up it's the law!

Reply by Demore on 12/1/07 11:00pm
Msg #223937

W. Va. Code § 46A-2-133 - If the seller be unsuccessful to provide you a written agreement that comprise notice of your right-to-cancel the sale within three days, your time period to cancel is extended until three days after you be given such written statement from the negotiator.

Reply by BrendaTx on 12/2/07 7:14am
Msg #223943

Re: Quiz: When to disobey instructions - Demore

Is there any specific reason why you are quoting West Virginia law?

The earlier notary in this thread was from Virgina, not West Virginia.

Reply by Barb/MO on 12/2/07 7:21am
Msg #223944

Besides the fact that the law cited isn't applicable

IMHO, W. Va. Code § 46A-2-133 isn't applicable to RE financing. It appears that the law cited relates to credit transactions based on sales of consumer goods and services, rather than on real estate. See below.

§46A-1-104. Application.
(1) This chapter applies if a consumer, who is a resident of this state, is induced to enter into a consumer credit sale made pursuant to a revolving charge account, to enter into a revolving charge account, to enter into a consumer loan made pursuant to a revolving loan account, or to enter into a consumer lease, by personal or mail solicitation, and the goods, services or proceeds are delivered to the consumer in this state, and payment on such account is to be made from this state.
(2) With respect to consumer credit sales or consumer loans consummated in another state, a creditor may not collect in an action brought in this state a sales finance charge or loan finance charge in excess of that permitted by this chapter.

Reply by BrendaTx on 12/2/07 7:23am
Msg #223945

Barb, thanks for going back and looking at that.

I was going to do that and got side-tracked.

Most states do have laws like that on the books.

Reply by Demore on 12/1/07 11:25pm
Msg #223938



FYI:

The Federal Trade Commission and the federal financial regulatory agencies negotiates with concerns regarding the economic life of every American; and have likely regulations and guidelines to help guarantee the reliability and integrity of information available to consumer reporting agencies and to permit consumers to straightforwardly dispute flaw with financial institutions and other individuals that provide information to consumer reporting agencies.

Hope this helps -