Posted by Leon_CO on 11/22/07 6:45am
Msg #222411

Stereotyping is unfair

There are many notary signing agents who were trained by the NNA, and received their certification through the NNA. Some of them are not good notary signing agents. Perhaps it reflects more on the individual than the organization that bestowed the CNSA designation on them, because there are many NNA trained CNSAs who are very good at what they do. There is a woman here in Colorado Springs who is a good example.

There are also very many NNA Certified Notary Signing Agents who were NOT trained by the NNA. They passed the NNA certification test, but they received their training from somewhere else. The Signing Registry, for example. There are also many who worked in title companies and have many years of experience closing loans. I know of quite a few.

Many NNA Certified Notary Signing Agents took and passed the NNA certification test because they wanted the CNSA designation. They see themselves as professionals. They felt that it would be a way to enhance their careers.

These professionals do not deserve to be categorized as incompetent, simply because they hold the designation NNA Certified Notary Signing Agent.

So stop the stereotyping. It's the same as racial stereotyping. Or any other form of stereotyping.

It's unfair.

P.S. I can only speak for myself. I am a NNA Certified Notary Signing Agent.

P.S.S. If you dislike the NNA, that's one thing. But don't hold it against the individual members. That's the same as hating someone because of the country they live in. Or hating someone because of the color of their skin, which, by the way, is also unfair.

And also very irrational.

Reply by WDMD on 11/22/07 6:56am
Msg #222412

"If you dislike the NNA, that's one thing. But don't hold it against the individual members. That's the same as hating someone because of the country they live in. Or hating someone because of the color of their skin, which, by the way, is also unfair. "

Disliking the NNA or thinking that anyone who would support an organization who is ruining your ability to make a living is a fool is a valid opinion. Unlike someone who has no choice in the color of their skin. That is not a valid comparison. You have a choice not to support the NNA so they can continue to degrade the loan signing profession.

Reply by Leon_CO on 11/22/07 7:09am
Msg #222413

>> You have a choice not to support the NNA <<

In order to have the CNSA designation, you have to be a member of the NNA. If a person derives benefit from the designation (i.e. CNSA designation and background check so they can work with a particular company), then support of the NNA is a by-product.

You don't know where all of your tax dollars go. You are supporting a lot of causes that you probably don't want to support.

Reply by WDMD on 11/22/07 7:24am
Msg #222417

"In order to have the CNSA designation, you have to be a member of the NNA. If a person derives benefit from the designation (i.e. CNSA designation and background check so they can work with a particular company), then support of the NNA is a by-product.

You don't know where all of your tax dollars go. You are supporting a lot of causes that you probably don't want to support."


Yes, but I can still voice my opinion. And I have no choice where my tax dollars go, unlike feeding the NNA money machine, which you have a choice of not supporting.
You are comparing apples to oranges when you talk about how ones color of skin or where tax dollars go when talking about how someone should not criticize those who support the NNA so they can continue to degrade the loan signing profession.

Reply by Leon_CO on 11/22/07 7:42am
Msg #222423

>> unlike feeding the NNA money machine, which you have a choice of not supporting. <<

Certainly you are not naive enough to think that ** all ** of the financial support that the NNA gets comes from membership dues.

Whether you realize it or not, you are supporting the NNA -- indirectly -- in many ways.

It's a well known fact of life that, money has an uncanny way of changing hands. And it isn't always in a straight line.

Good luck.

Reply by WDMD on 11/22/07 8:12am
Msg #222426

"Certainly you are not naive enough to think that ** all ** of the financial support that the NNA gets comes from membership dues."

I agree with you there. As you pointed out in another post, with the NNA you cannot get a background screening without buying all their other bells and whistles.I have some ideas of where some other revenue streams for the NNA come from. I have no proof so I would not even go there. Just think about who their suggested fee schedule would benefit. Makes you kind of wonder. I guess in that sense, working for title companies and SS's would be indirectly supporting the NNA as you say.

JMHO

Reply by MonicaFL on 11/22/07 11:18am
Msg #222469

Well, let me tell you - I joined the NNA, went thru all of their training and was told that I would get a lot of business from those who specifically wanted a certified signing agent. That was in 2004. Guess what - I have never had anyone tell me that they got my name from the NNA.

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/22/07 7:17am
Msg #222415

**I can only speak for myself. I am a NNA Certified Notary Signing Agent.**

I was, too, at one time. With due respect to you as a signing agent and professional member of our craft, I don't think your comparison is exactly accurate--racial stereotyping and the disturbing conclusions some of us have derived from observations on NR.

I don't take it personal at all that SAs find the NNA newbies incompetent. Based on observation, it is quite understandable...while I do not recall ever saying something like, "another NNA incompetent" I understand why this is being said...and even though I am one who was certified years ago by them, I see why the NNA and the new certs are all being tarred with the same brush.

I do not, in any way, support that organization and haven't for a long time.

IMHO, what is wrong about the picture is that people continue to support the NNA when they have done what I believe to be damage to our so-called profession and continue to do so.

JMHO...and if you wanted a good debate today, I believe you'll have one.

Reply by Leon_CO on 11/22/07 7:25am
Msg #222418

One of the things I take issue with is assuming that **all** CNSAs were trained by the NNA. Not all of us were. I was trained by the Signing Registry.

Also, there is a person on this board who says that she will **never** hire a Certified Notary Signing Agent. Does that include someone who is well-trained?

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/22/07 8:26am
Msg #222432

**Also, there is a person on this board who says that she will **never** hire a Certified Notary Signing Agent. Does that include someone who is well-trained?**

Sylvia, I presume, is who you are referring to.

Perhaps she (if that is who it is) can better answer that.

Only my HO but it is likely that she hears what I do....when I hear from a person who writes me and says, "I'm NNA Certified...." I do not take that to mean much more than what it means...they took a test until they passed it...just like you did, just like I did.

Reply by Leon_CO on 11/22/07 8:41am
Msg #222439

>> when I hear from a person who writes me and says, "I'm NNA Certified...." <<

Don't you see, that is my whole point.

If I write to someone and say that I am NNA Certified, I don't want them to presume that I'm some kind of one-day-wonder who doesn't know what they're doing.

I want to be treated fairly. And it wouldn't be fair for someone to turn me down for an assignment **just** because I am NNA certified.

I think that is very close-minded, which is the case with all forms of stereotyping.

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/22/07 8:55am
Msg #222442

**I think that is very close-minded, which is the case with all forms of stereotyping.**

I'm sorry you feel that way.

Rather than have the mountain move, perhaps you should go to the mountain if you want to see it...in other words, perhaps if your CNSA designation is gaining negative results, you could tone it down in marketing and look for alternatives.

You are fighting an insignificant (IMHO) battle arguing with a bunch of closeminded notaries who have a core belief through experience and observation. It is obviously significant to you and I respect that, but to tell me I am closeminded is not helpful to change my mind...your disbelief that I have a set of experiences which brings me to see things this way is closeminded, is it not? There are probably better ways to go about it than to do exactly what you seem to be against.

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/22/07 9:09am
Msg #222444

Snarky sounding response, I apologize...

I said...

"perhaps if your CNSA designation is gaining negative results, you could tone it down in marketing and look for alternatives".
=========
I didn't mean to sound snarky and I did. I was responding to this:
=========
"If I write to someone and say that I am NNA Certified, I don't want them to presume that I'm some kind of one-day-wonder who doesn't know what they're doing.

I want to be treated fairly. And it wouldn't be fair for someone to turn me down for an assignment **just** because I am NNA certified."

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 11/22/07 8:55am
Msg #222443

"Also, there is a person on this board who says that she will **never** hire a Certified Notary Signing Agent. Does that include someone who is well-trained?"

Leon,
I think you are referring to me. I will not hire a signing agent based on their NNA training.
I check to see how long they have been a notary, if they are a new notary and trained by the NNA, I will not hire them - unless they have a background in the profession.

I prefer to hire those who have received training through the Signing Registry.

I do see some NNA trained signing agents posting on this forum that are obviously willing to learn, I have been known to give some of those a chance.
But, as I guarantee the signing agent's work to the title company I am really careful who I hire, it is my reputation on the line.

I very, very rarely go to the NNA's website to find a signing agent. I usually find a signing agent here, or on the SR when it is up and running.

Reply by Leon_CO on 11/22/07 9:13am
Msg #222445

I'm listed there too.

>> I very, very rarely go to the NNA's website to find a signing agent. <<

Just because a person is listed on the NNA website, it doesn't mean that they were ** trained ** by the NNA. It just means that they are a member of the Notary Signing Agent Section. That's all it means. It should not be a reflection of their knowledge and experience.

I'm listed there too. But I was trained by the Signing Registry.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 11/22/07 9:25am
Msg #222447

Re: I'm listed there too.

But you are also listed here
I don't have to go to the NNA's website to find a signing agent, as I can always find one here or the SR or even 123. The NNA's website is the last resort.

Reply by desktopfull on 11/22/07 2:46pm
Msg #222497

Re: I'm listed there too.

Why would you want to be a member of an organization that has deliberately set in increases our costs for doing business and lower the fees we are being paid for our services? Your shooting your self in the foot by supporting the NNA. Go figure!!!

Reply by desktopfull on 11/22/07 2:59pm
Msg #222499

Re: I'm listed there too.

Oops, I messed up on first posting. I meant to say: Why would you want to be a member of an organization that has deliberately set out to increase our costs (with the money going to the NNA) for doing business and then recommend the lowering of our fees to the title companies we do work for? Your shooting yourself in the foot by supporting the NNA. Go Figure!!!!!!!!!

Reply by desktopfull on 11/22/07 2:37pm
Msg #222494

Ditto!!!

Reply by Lee/AR on 11/22/07 7:27am
Msg #222419

There was a time when the NNA was as good (or as bad) as any other Notary organization.
That time is long gone. Now they are just one heckuva good marketing organization targeting unknowledgeable, inexperienced people...which you are not, Leon.

Reply by Leon_CO on 11/22/07 7:34am
Msg #222420

>> targeting unknowledgeable, inexperienced people...which you are not <<

Lee, I agree with that, to some extent.

Someone once asked me if I had changed my stance on the NNA, because I criticized them. The fact is, I am able to see the good as well as the bad -- in all things. I hold neither a favorable, nor a negative view of the NNA.

Yes, there are some things about it that are bad. I will be the first to admit that. And I have even said so publicly. But I hold the CNSA designation as a professional designation -- not as a badge of support for the NNA.

Could I get ahead in my career without being a CNSA? Probably. But being a CNSA has put me in a position to do things in my career that I would not be able to do otherwise.

Reply by Lee/AR on 11/22/07 7:38am
Msg #222421

"But being a CNSA has put me in a position to do things in my career that I would not be able to do otherwise" Like what?

Reply by Leon_CO on 11/22/07 7:53am
Msg #222425

>> Like what? <<

There are companies that I have worked with, and programs that I am involved with.

There was a lot of debate regarding background screenings, and which one should one undergo. There will be opportunities for signing agents who are NNA background screened and certified. I know this.

If you are going to need a background screening, then why not get the certification along with it?

The main objection I have is all of the channels you have to go through. You can't get the certification unless you are a member of the NNA Signing Agent section. And of course, you can't join the NNA Signing Agent section unless you are a member of the NNA.

But getting back to the main topic, I know that there are a lot of very good Certified Notary Signing Agents out there. I just don't like to see all of us put into the same basket as the ones who are not so good. That is stereotyping.

Reply by Teddog/CO on 11/22/07 8:17am
Msg #222427

Peace ! It's Thanksgiving. Have a great Day ! n/m

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 11/22/07 8:21am
Msg #222430

I Agree with Your Premise...

...that simply labeling a poster as an NNA newbie without any evidence is stereotyping & should be avoided. However I don't agree with your contention you gain anything by being an NNA member. I don't see any overall net benefit I'd receive from what they have to offer. They're working AGAINST me, not for me as a signing agent & they long ago left their original mission to be an advocate for Notaries Public across the country. They only have ONE mission in mind at this point & that's the accumulation of money in their coffers. They won't get a dime of mine until I see a dramatic turnaround in their mindset.

Reply by Leon_CO on 11/22/07 8:31am
Msg #222433

Re: I Agree with Your Premise...

>> I don't agree with your contention you gain anything by being an NNA member <<

Dennis, I don't think that I ever said that. And if I did, I certainly retract it.

I will be the first to say that you don't "gain" anything by being a NNA *member*. I think that there is a benefit to being **certified**.

Unfortunately, and I've already pointed this out, you can't get the certification without being a member, and belonging to the NSA section.

It's the classic 'Catch 22'.

But it's really not unlike many other things in life. There are tradeoffs with everything. And we often find ourselves supporting causes that we don't support.

But again, this topic is not about the NNA.

** It's about the unfair way in which CNSAs are portrayed. **

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/22/07 8:39am
Msg #222438

Re: I Agree with Your Premise...

"But again, this topic is not about the NNA.
** It's about the unfair way in which CNSAs are portrayed. **"

LOL...well now you've got your debate started...I need to move on for now but will say...support the NNA and support tactics which will produce notaries who draw stereotyping reactions and results from people who see what the problem is and don't stop to analyze anything except that they are sick of the source and the ones who DO and continue to drag down the business by low fees, shoddy service and indifference.


Enjoy your debate on this topic...and have a wonderful TG day, Leon..I don't even have my makeup on yet! Still rushing around in my pjs.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 11/22/07 9:35am
Msg #222450

I Was Making a Blanket Statement...

...that there is NOTHING the NNA offers, including their CNSA designation, which I stand to gain or benefit from. In my opinion if I were a dues paying NNA member I'd be working against myself. They'd be using my money to do their best to put me out of business. JMHO.

As for your "topic", I agree that to stereotype someone just because they have a designation is probably wrong. However if it's the NNA CNSA designation you have behind your name then immediately negative thoughts creep into my mind. If I firmly believe all of the things I stated in the previous paragraph, what am I going to automatically think of someone who supports with their dollars an organization destroying our business? Why would warm & fuzzy thoughts fill my mind?

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 11/22/07 10:11am
Msg #222458

One Other Comment...

...lest I be portrayed as anti-capitalist. I have no problem whatsoever with the NNA making money & lots of it if they can do it legally (& I'm not accusing them of anything illegal). What I find galling about them is the not for profit status they maintain, claiming to be an "association" solely dedicated to the professionalism of the Notary Public office, instilling the highest ethical standards in their members...while all the time demonstrating their highest regard for the almighty dollar as the motivating force behind literally everything they do. They should call themselves what they are; a business attempting to turn a sizeable profit on the backs of Notaries Public across the nation. They should remove posthaste the word "association" from their "company" name. Once again, JMHO!

Reply by Leon_CO on 11/22/07 10:49am
Msg #222462

Re: One Other Comment...

Dennis, this post is not about the NNA.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 11/22/07 10:52am
Msg #222463

I Just Counted...

...& you referenced the NNA 10 times in your original post. While they may not be your main point, YOU made them a part of the discussion.

Reply by Leon_CO on 11/22/07 10:57am
Msg #222464

Re: I Just Counted...

Dennis, there was no way to avoid using their name.

The topic is about notary signing agents who are unfairly stereotyped because they are certified by 'them'.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 11/22/07 11:15am
Msg #222468

And That's Exactly...

...what we've been discussing. The "unfair" part comes into play in this discussion simply because of the NNA & what they do. That's why some NSA's become stereotyped, because of their association with "them".

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 11/22/07 11:35am
Msg #222472

Here's What I Believe is "Unfair" Sterotyping...

...Let's say you have someone posting on the NotRot board for the 1st time & they ask a question inferring they don't have a clue as to the difference between a jurat & an acknowledgment. It's my opinion it's unfair at that point to "presume" they're an NNA newbie & start accusing them of such. I'd even go so far as to say it's "unfair" to label someone who got sucked in by the NNA's advertizing for dollars scheme as uneducated & ignorant. They just don't know any better & you've never seen me criticize someone in that position. I think anyone who has never been in this industry before & signs up with the NNA should be given a year to realize the error of their ways. Where I'll draw the line is with an NSA who's been around the signing agent block more than a few times; knows the score with the NNA; yet continues to maintain their NNA CNSA designation is something worthwhile & beneficial. I don't believe the NNA CNSA designation to be worth the paper it's printed on & have yet to see convincing evidence to the contrary . And I don't want you to take that personally either, Leon. It's just MY opinion after nearly 7 years in this business.

Reply by desktopfull on 11/22/07 3:11pm
Msg #222502

Re: Here's What I Believe is "Unfair" Sterotyping...

If a notary doesn't know the difference between a jurat and an acknowledgement, they sure haven't read their state notary laws and have no business being in possession of a notary seal. Yes, IMHO, that is an immediate clue for me that they are a new notary or "newbie," and they haven't even taken the time to figure out their notary responsibilities, much less being a NSA.

Reply by Becca_FL on 11/22/07 8:39am
Msg #222437

Dennis, we agree on something! What is this twice now? Peace n/m

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 11/22/07 9:19am
Msg #222446

Do You Mean...

...you're rooting for my Jayhawks to win this Saturday? Rock Chalk, Jayhawks, KU!

Have a great Thanksgiving!

Reply by desktopfull on 11/22/07 3:13pm
Msg #222503

Re: Do You Mean...

Absolutely!!!!! Go Jayhawks! Also, GOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Gators!

Reply by desktopfull on 11/22/07 3:02pm
Msg #222500

Re: I Agree with Your Premise...

Dittos to that too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/22/07 8:35am
Msg #222434

*fact is, I am able to see the good as well as the bad -- in all things.*

I wish I could. All I see, however, is a big greedy, surreptitious monster who pretends to be a profession organization and in reality it is a retail establishment (oh, and of course, in my opinion only).

I dislike them intensely because they fooled me into thinking they were still what they used to be. Once upon a time they were a decent organization which supported notaries. Now they are greed driven and little else...a little greed is wonderful...too much gets a little stinky. (And, of course, this is only in my humble opinion...lest I get one of those bully-like cease and desist letters for stating my opinion like others allegedly have...)

**But being a CNSA has put me in a position to do things in my career that I would not be able to do otherwise.**

I am also interested in specifically what...only once has my NNA certification been asked for by a client...IREP. None other.

Reply by desktopfull on 11/22/07 3:15pm
Msg #222504

I work for IREP and they have never asked me for mine, but I worked for them for 3 years before the NNA started their marketing campaign for all notaries to become certified by them or not be used by the title companies.

Reply by Becca_FL on 11/22/07 8:36am
Msg #222435

"...I hold the CNSA designation as a professional designation..."

Professional designation? Hardly professional, IMO, when the designation is bestowed upon those that come to this forum and ask "what is a jurat," for example.

"But being a CNSA has put me in a position to do things in my career that I would not be able to do otherwise."

Ridiculous. I have never, not once, been asked if I was certified by the NNA. My four years of experience as a processor and EO has opened more doors for me than any "professional designation" has.

What comes to my mind when I see an NSA advertise that they are NNA certified is...a sucker is born every minute.

And, Leon, your analogy stinks.

Reply by Leon_CO on 11/22/07 8:45am
Msg #222441

>> when the designation is bestowed upon those that come to this forum and ask "what is a jurat," for example <<

Then the problem is with the certification process. Admittedly, it's too simple.

But there are many Certified Notary Signing Agents who go beyond the process. They continue to learn.

Those signing agents should not be categorized with the rest. That is what this topic is all about.

Reply by Lynn1765/FL on 11/22/07 9:45am
Msg #222453

I am a CNSA via NNA. I am very proud of my designation but not very proud of NNA. Yes I studied hard and did well on the test, however, with help from several seasoned notaries on this board (Brenda_TX and Sylvia) I have discovered how much NNA's study guide DID NOT teach. I have done much lurking, research and studying to correct what I was not taught.

I did not renew my NNA because I received nothing from the membership and its "benefits" (assignments). Where I received benefits is the Notary Rotary and the members within. For this I appreciative.

I felt I was being stereotyped for a while until I realized it was NOT stereotyping, it was MEANINGFUL, WELL INTENDED advice from seasoned pro's. THAT you can't get from NNA.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Lynn

Reply by PA_Notary_II on 11/22/07 12:36pm
Msg #222485

Perhaps the right question to ask of a prospective CNSA is 'when' they were certified. The most recent ones are "witless" closers.

Reply by BBuchler/CA on 11/22/07 2:38pm
Msg #222495

"Recent ones . . ."

I was "recently" certified. And I "could be" a "witless closer." Why, because the training I received, in retrospect, was woefully inadequate. The NNA is not the only "school" out there turning out totally unprepared students. All you have to do is look for "SA training" to see how many "schools" there are promoting this industry. We are "sucked" in because they ALL make it appears that 3 hours of training is all you need and joila, you're trained. The NNA just happens to be one of the biggest one promoting this field.

After reading the thousands of posts on this board, and others, I know that I do not know enough to do credit to this field WITH THE TRAINING I RECEIVED. So I'm getting more, and more, and more training and reading everything I can. I may even get another "certification".

Since it is clear that certification by NNA is "not worth the paper it is written on" my question to you is, which one is? What is the concensus of the board on the "best" certification to get? And, yet, if certification is not asked for, why bother? As a marketing tool obviously, but since you can get certified by anyone (I can probably go to 7-11 and get certified), the value of certification is certainly diluted. The NNA "says" their certification will open doors. If you didn't know better (you hadn't found this, or any other, board to prove this to be otherwise), you will buy into the hype.

Lastly, my being recent does not tell you how much I have learned. I may have been learning for the past six months, getting as much info from as many sources as I could, before moving forward with certification. So please don't lump "recent ones" in with "witless" ones either.

As in any field, the cream will rise to the top.

Reply by OR on 11/22/07 2:45pm
Msg #222496

Re: Stereotyping is unfair/my story with thanks

I too have realized how little the NSA Cert. Course teaches. I am one who took it NNA's Certification and stepped out into this big world of Signing Loans with certificate in one hand and no clue in the other hand.

I can only thank God I spend every day here on the Notary Rotary for the past year looking searching for information that was not covered in the NNA Signing Agent Course.

In my 4 month of being a NSA I was the person that Andy posted about someone who did not have the borrower sign the QCD. There was no names printed on it. There was loose certificate which I was filled out there was no place for them to sign on that either. No I did not make lines and print there names under the lines. I had never ever seen a QCD before. The signing instructions (which I still have) clearly says do not have the borrower sign any place that there names are not printed which I read to the Borrowers. I have always read the signing instructions at table to the borrowers too. The borrowers and I talked it over we decided that we would not alter the QCD form. We decided that if later it we found out that there names were needed then we would fix the form. (I learned to always call the SS when in doubt too)

I went back to the office and look for a QCD form in the NNA SA training book that NNA sent me. Are you going to be surprised if I tell you that there is no form call Quit Claim Deed, nothing written about it at all.(2006 I got my book) in my NNA training book.

Off I sent the package with a loose cert and no names on the QCD. Yes I had to go back to the borrowers (with a ruler) and it fixed. We not only put names on the QCD but we also had to put there name on the loose cert. which read the above signed..... per Andy's instruction. (another lesson learned) I reread the signing instructions again yesterday wow I learn a lot from that signing, it was "my" lessons to learn, I am glad that I learned it well. I found my self looking at every signing that I did in the past year. Most of them perfict and a few I had to learned from. A famous person once said "It is not easy being green" I think it was Kermit the Frog.

Today I can say I want to be one of the best Signing Agent-Notary's in my area. I am working my socks off to do that. I don't care if I am the biggest or if I the most signings or even if I make the most money. I care that I am the best. As long as I stay here on the Notary Rotary I may just have a chance at that dream. I think I will check out SR course that you all talked about. I agree that NNA SA course is less than to be desired there is a he** of a lot more a person "needs" to know then what they put in there book.

In my first year (2007) the number one thing that I have learned is that NNA did not teach is there are things you need to know when you are in the field. I learned that you can find that information no other place like you can find it here on the Notary Rotary. To all who post and Harry I say THANK YOU, you are all my Hero's. I could not have made it through my first year without all of you "Thank You All". To you I will always be grateful.

Reply by desktopfull on 11/22/07 3:21pm
Msg #222505

Way to go Becca, I agree 100%.

Reply by CaliNotary on 11/22/07 4:42pm
Msg #222506

Since when is life supposed to be fair?

Stereotypes exist because there's truth in them. A lot of black people really do like fried chicken. A lot of gay men really are sluts. And a lot of NNA graduates really do have their heads up their butts.

Reply by Hugh Nations Signing Agents of Austin on 11/22/07 8:36pm
Msg #222519

Re: Since when is life supposed to be fair?

However, the thoughtful person, recognizing that a stereotype is not necessarily true, will wait to judge a person based upon his demonstrated, character, competence, demeanor, or whatever is appropriate. Just because the earth's surface is composed largely of dirt, doesn't mean that one shouldn't strive to keep one's own hands clean.

Our new minister is gay. Should I not withhold judgment until she evidences her vision of spirituality, or should I make her prove that she is capable of being spiritual before I will accept her? I think the former.

Reply by Barbara A Demonte on 11/22/07 11:26pm
Msg #222530

Re: Since when is life supposed to be fair?

"However, the thoughtful person, recognizing that a stereotype is not necessarily true, will wait to judge a person based upon his demonstrated, character, competence, demeanor, or whatever is appropriate."

Why would anyone in this business want to risk their reputation as an NSA and hire someone that is a CNSA through the NNA that doesn't know the difference between a jurat or an acknowledgement? That lack of knowledge alone demonstrates their incompetency. IMHO, when you loose a very good client because you took a risk on using someone you didn't know, or that wasn't recommended to you by a NSA you know well, you'll think twice before doing it again.

Reply by Hugh Nations Signing Agents of Austin on 11/23/07 12:10am
Msg #222532

Re: Since when is life supposed to be fair?

Precisely, Barbara. At that point, the person has >>demonstrated<< incompetence. But simply having an NNA certification is not a demonstration of that, is it? At worst, it is a demonstration that the person doesn't share the prevailing view on this board that the NNA works contrary to the benefit of the profession, and NSAs should not contribute to an organization that is working counter to their best interests.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 11/23/07 8:14am
Msg #222548

Re: Since when is life supposed to be fair?

<<Why would anyone in this business want to risk their reputation as an NSA and hire someone that is a CNSA through the NNA that doesn't know the difference between a jurat or an acknowledgement?>>

Why would anyone in this business want to risk their reputation by hiring ANY notary without knowing whether they're competent? How would you know they didn't know the difference between a jurat and an acknowledgment unless you asked them? Just assuming it was so because of the CNSA is the kind of stereotyping Leon is talking about. Even if it were true (and I don't believe it is) that many CNSAs are incompetent, it doesn't logically follow that ALL CNSAs are incompetent.

Competency has nothing to do with who trained you and what letters you choose to put behind your name; it has everything to do with your ability to do the job correctly.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 11/24/07 3:28am
Msg #222666

OK, here's how I see it:

Having an NNA certification doesn't mean someone doesn't know what they are doing any more than having it means that they DO know what they are doing. The whole point is that the majority of us here (and many, many elsewhere) feel it is a pretty meaningless designation. (The only time I ever talked about being NNA certified was when I had no experience and didn't have anything else to talk about when trying to market myself!)

As others have said, to the knowledgeable hiring entities, that certification doesn't tell them what they want to know about the competence of a notary. I can't imagine why anyone who has been around long enough to be aware of this common belief would bother promoting that designation. As a result, I gather that many of us assume that if someone IS actively promoting themselves as an NNA CNSA (vs. just mentioning it on a website or business card along with other qualifications) that they haven't been around long enough to *get* that it doesn't impress... Further, all to often, we've seen people who claim to be NNA CNSAs posting with really clueless questions.

So I doubt that people are really actively discriminating against CNSAs; just saying that if someone has more than that going for them, then that is what they should talk about. Coming here and saying that they are a background screened CNSA doesn't impress, it just tells us that they helped fill the NNA's coffers. And, of course, as we've seen, that leads to the discussion about being part of the problem. Personally, I see that as two separate issues. Again, just my 2 cents...