Posted by CaliNotary on 4/28/08 9:48pm
Msg #245455

A new justification for backdating

Had a signing a few days ago, got a call today that apparently the guy signed the docs a couple of different ways, some with full first name, some with only first initial. (who does that when they're signing a big stack of documents anyway?) I didn't catch it, the lender didn't like it and wanted some things resigned. Fine.

They send over a new DOT, riders, TIL, and RTC. Apparently the SS also sent me an email asking me to backdate, but it went to Gmail's spam folder and I didn't get it. Why it went to Spam I don't know, the confirmation came through fine last week.

So I print the docs, hop in the car. It dawns on me that the dates will probably be an issue so I call the SS (Pacific Alliance Signing Service) and tell Sue what just occurred to me and that everything would have today's date. Which she didn't want to hear. Apparently the borrower's rate lock expires today.

I won't get into the specifics of the argument, we all know how that goes, but the one part that I found amusing was when I asked her if she was a notary, and if so then why didn't she know what the law was, and to feel free to send me the page of the CA notary manual that says that's it's ok to backdate something if it's a new signature that's correcting something from a different day.

Of course she had no answer for that, but the answer she did give was priceless. She said "AS A PERSON" she would make sure the client got what they needed to fund the loan and as a person she wouldn't put the borrowers in that situation.

Was definitely a new one for me. I love that AS A PERSON the person funding the loan isn't expected to push it through with perfectly legal and legitimate signatures, instead it's my job as a notary to take the as a person approach and completely disregard notary law instead.

So I told her that I was going to follow up with the borrowers in a couple of days to see if the loan funds (I bet it does) and that I expected to be paid if that's the case. I also threw in several choice words (and I do mean choice, sometimes they just fly out of my mouth and surprise even me!) that pretty much ensure that I won't be called for signings by her anytime soon. But since I do maybe 5 or 6 signings a year for Pacific Alliance, I think I can withstand the financial hit.

After 5 years of doing loan signings, I definitely have zero patience left for these ridiculous backdating arguments.

Reply by Pat/IL on 4/28/08 10:45pm
Msg #245461

Re: So Who picks up the pieces?

If the rate lock is expiring (verifiable) and if the lender would have a reasonable risk as to being unable to sell the loan as is (less verifiable) and if the rates have risen since the lock (probable) you are left with choices: Backdate (bad) buy down the rate (not so good for you) or let somebody else buy down the rate (bad for them).

I think it's a interesting way to determine what your integrity's worth. Or maybe not. Maybe the price of a signing is not worth the cost of correcting the occasional mistake. It will be interesting to hear the opinions on this.

Reply by CaliNotary on 4/28/08 10:52pm
Msg #245462

Re: So Who picks up the pieces?

"you are left with choices: Backdate (bad) buy down the rate (not so good for you) or let somebody else buy down the rate (bad for them)."

Or the other choice, which is that they use the documents that were signed on the original date. Legally, whatever you choose to use as your signature is your legal signature. If his signature had been an illegible scribble they'd have no problem funding the loan and I'm not seeing what the difference is just because this one is legible.

Now if they choose not to, that's not my problem, I sent them back a stack of completely and legally signed documents.

Reply by CaliNotary on 4/28/08 10:55pm
Msg #245463

Forgot to add

"Maybe the price of a signing is not worth the cost of correcting the occasional mistake."

Whether it was even a mistake is highly debatable, but I didn't even argue the point, I was quite willing to drive out and get the documents resigned at my expense. I just wasn't willing to backdate them.

Reply by Pat/IL on 4/28/08 11:57pm
Msg #245474

Re: So Who picks up the pieces?

"Or the other choice, which is that they use the documents that were signed on the original date. "

You disregarded my 'if the lender had a reasonable reason to believe that they would not be able to sell the loan' (or something like that). It's my impression that it's a real concern among lenders. They are following rules set by the investors. If it didn't matter, nobody would have questioned it.

I agree with you in that a person's signature is his/her signature and that no lender should be telling any borrower how to sign it. And I have never had a problem with a scribble.

On the other hand, the title company is bound to follow the lender's instructions and also to have the mortgage or deed of trust signed properly (according to the state's recording laws). In my state, the mortgage is to be signed as title is vested. Enforceability of the lien could be questioned by a smart lawyer one day.

Disclaimer: I am not a smart lawyer. I am not even a smart person. I should never have even started up with this.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 4/28/08 10:55pm
Msg #245464

Well, you gotta give her at least a point for creativity... What a moron...

I hope you retrieved that email from your spam folder before it was deleted - it would make a great smoking gun in the event of a fee dispute.

And I think you're right, the loan will probably fund anyway. Even if the lock was expiring today (which would give them until midnight to get the papers signed), it's the lender's call to have the papers signed again, so they would probably cut some slack. Rates aren't volatile enough right now for them to pass on the business.

Reply by CaliNotary on 4/28/08 11:03pm
Msg #245465

Yeah, I have the email. In fact I think I'm going to forward it to the SOS office, explain that she's also a notary, and maybe they'll explain the concept to her since I sure couldn't seem to do it.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 4/28/08 11:30pm
Msg #245470

She's an even bigger moron for putting it in writing.

I would certainly forward it to the SOS - I'm not sure about CA law, but some folks here have been saying it's illegal for them to even ask you to backdate.

You've probably already burned the bridge as far as future work is concerned with your "choice words" - might as well take out the supports while you're at it...

Reply by CaliNotary on 4/28/08 11:57pm
Msg #245473

"You've probably already burned the bridge as far as future work is concerned with your "choice words" - might as well take out the supports while you're at it..."

Well I think I did that already by using the C word, lol. That's the one that just came flying out without me even thinking about it. I guess that's what I get for that being my muttered profanity of choice when I'm driving, it's just poised and ready to go at all times.

Reply by Therese on 4/29/08 1:20am
Msg #245475

Re:This is what people might be referrring to in CA handbook

§ 8225. Improper notarial acts, solicitation, coercion or infl uence of performance;
misdemeanor
(a) Any person who solicits, coerces, or in any manner infl uences a notary public to perform
an improper notarial act knowing that act to be an improper notarial act, including any act
required of a notary public under Section 8206, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.
(b) Notwithstanding any other limitation of time described in Section 802 of the Penal Code,
or any other provision of law, prosecution for a violation of this offense shall be commenced
within four years after discovery of the commission of the offense, or within four years after
the completion of the offense, whichever is later.
(c) The penalty provided by this section is not an exclusive remedy, and does not affect any
other relief or remedy provided by law.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 4/29/08 1:51am
Msg #245477

Re: Re:This is what people might be referrring to in CA handbook

Not to mention that fact that every acknowledgement now must be signed by the notary "UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY". [Caps are not by own.] In addition to it being a crime (perjury is a felony) to put incorrect information (like the wrong date) on a notary certificate , additional penalties include loss of notary commission and a fine of up to $10,000.

'Nuff said...

Reply by Terri_CA on 4/29/08 11:20am
Msg #245528

You can report the violation to your local law enforcement agency now. No longer have to file a claim with the SOS office.

Terri
Lancaster, CA

Reply by CaliNotary on 4/29/08 11:27am
Msg #245533

Good to know

I got an email from Sue this morning, she included the email that the guy from LandAmerica sent her which says that he is going to have the borrowers sign a new DOT and just swap the acknowledgment from the one I signed. I'm shocked that a) he put this in writing and b) that she actually sent it to me.

And they think I"m the ignorant one? Needless to say, this is far from over.

Reply by CaliNotary on 4/29/08 11:38am
Msg #245536

Here are the emails

Landamerica to Pacific Alliance:

I am very frustrated and disappointed about this situation.

We will send the documents directly to the borrower and walk them
through the signing on the phone.

When I get the original docs back, I will swap out the acknowledgement
page of the Deed of Trust.

I understand that things sometimes go wrong but not owning up and fixing
mistakes when things do go wrong is unacceptable.

We will not be paying this notary invoice.


Pacific Alliance to me:

I am forwarding the email I received from Matt. As you can see he will not be paying this invoice as I much expected his reaction to be. Therefore, you will not be paid for a job that was not conducted in the professional manner it should have been. I am not in this business to pay notaries to go and not do their job. Your job was to go out and get signatures. Not just any signatures, correct signatures. People yes will sometimes sign differently, but your job as the notary was to make sure they signed one way throughout the documents and that would be the way either the typed signature line reads or the way the deed of trust reads. Your job was not to just make sure there was an ink mark somewhere on the page, it was to look closely at their signature and make sure it read the way it was supposed to. You are to make sure that signing gets done correctly the first time and not depend on the borrower to know these things. Alot of people are not in the habit of signing loan/legal documents so they are not in tune to how important it is that their signature be true and correct. I don't know how long exactly you have been a notary, but I have never heard a notary try to justify a situation as this like you did last night.
I appreciate your apology for your language, but at that point in the conversation I was actually surprised my language didn't take the same turn. You have lost me business because of your conduct. I am a single mother of 2, only because their father was killed and I am trying everything in my power to make my monthly income. I don't go through all of this for someone like you to totally disregard the position and responsibilty of the job. I never asked you to back date anything. I only asked you to fix something you didn't do. If you hadn't been to these people's home yet, if you hadn't been the one that was there on the original date, then yes that would have been asking you to back date. I would have never done that. I stand behind my commission the secretary of state granted me.


Me to Pacific Alliance:

Thank you for sending this Sue. I can’t believe that Matt put in writing that he was going to take my acknowledgment page and attach it to a new signature that I didn’t witness. You both are aware that that is fraud? Whether it’s a misdemeanor or a felony, I don’t know. I will certainly be sending copies of all of this to the Secretary of State’s office, as well as contacting the borrowers and the higher ups at LandAmerica. I’m sure they will all love to know how you and Matt operate your businesses with such blatant disregard for the law.

And Sue, your knowledge of notary law is really appalling. If you don’t know by now that we notarize signatures, not documents, you need to turn in your notary stamp. My justification of not backdating is completely in line with CA notary law, the simple act of you asking me to backdate is a misdemeanor in this state. YOU are the one who is totally disregarding the responsibility of this job, not me.

Reply by Terri Garner on 4/29/08 1:16pm
Msg #245556

Re: Here are the emails

Looks like you have proof to take to the local police authority to file a complaint. Yes it is illegal for them to ask you to perform illegally. Further, you can contact the Department of Corporation and State Insurance Commissioner's office. Dept of Corporations on the lender and the Insurance Commissioner for the Title Insurance company.

Terri
Lancaster, CA

Reply by Rick_NY on 4/29/08 1:03pm
Msg #245552

> Rates aren't volatile enough right now for them to pass on the business.

Of course, back-dating a notarization is a "no-no." But as for the interest rate situation, we don't know at what rate the borrowers locked, and, with all due respect to you, Mike, because I am sure you are a very experienced and capable notary, in the past month the rates on 30 year loans have varied by 0.125% and 15 year loans by about 0.250%, which may mean significant premium dollars plus or minus to lenders.

I always thought a name/signature affidavit covered those first initial vs. first name discrepancies anyway.

Reply by Teresa/FL on 4/29/08 1:48pm
Msg #245558

"I always thought a name/signature affidavit covered those first initial vs. first name discrepancies anyway."

That's what I thought as well. Funny how we are sometimes pushed to overlook ID discrepancies and told that the name/signature affidavit will cover, but when it comes to the TC/lender accepting variations of signatures within the loan package.

Reply by Teresa/FL on 4/29/08 1:50pm
Msg #245559

to finish that thought...

...they claim it is not sufficient and the documents need to be resigned.

Reply by MonicaFL on 4/29/08 7:01am
Msg #245482

Re: Lock expiration

I was not asked to backdate but did have a closing where the lock expired on the day I was sending the docs back. As I was about to leave the house to drop the package, I had a frantic call from the Title Co asking me if I had dropped the package yet - when I told her I was on my way out to do that, she said, please open the package and fax this and this and this, etc. to the Lender because the lock expires today. I told her I would do it for an additional fee and she agreed. I have seen several documents in the past three or four weeks that the lock is running out within a day or two of the signing. What's going on with these people?

Reply by MW/VA on 4/29/08 10:36am
Msg #245511

I don't see that signing docs for correction is backdating. You were there when they were signed the first time, right? I don't even see that it has to do with expiration of a lock-in or anything else. As I have been told, it's the lenders money, and they decide if they're going to fund the loan or not. We're all taught specifically that the docs are signed exactly as they are printed. I agree, sometimes the signature is "scrawl" and I wouldn't be able to determine if they signed with a middle initial or not. It's not up to me. The TC and lender decide what is acceptable.

Reply by CaliNotary on 4/29/08 11:20am
Msg #245529

We don't notarize documents, we notarize signatures. New signature, new notarization, no exceptions.

I don't care what the TC and the lender say, I only care what the notary laws of CA say.

Reply by Kate/CA on 4/29/08 11:17am
Msg #245527

Good for you, they probably need a few more choice ....

words. I was wondering if if that person at Pacific Alliance wuld also go to jail and pay the fines for you, just to get it done and to make the borrowers happy.

Reply by Calnotary on 4/29/08 12:37pm
Msg #245547

Cali, keep us updated on this...

I have worked for Pacific alliance notary servcie, but I have never beeb asked to backdate, But boy to put it in writing that it's just foolish!!

Reply by Calnotary on 4/29/08 12:40pm
Msg #245548

oops I meant" never been asked" n/m

Reply by czg on 4/29/08 1:59pm
Msg #245562

What kind of notary doesn't check docs and make corrections before leaving.
What a rookie. You don't deserve ANY signings!

Reply by LisaWI on 4/29/08 2:03pm
Msg #245563

Re: Oh boy!!

CZG, youre kidding right? If not Im sure going to enjoy this, lol.

Reply by SueW/Tn on 4/29/08 2:05pm
Msg #245564

Amen Lisa, running for popcorn and a coke! n/m

Reply by LisaWI on 4/29/08 2:09pm
Msg #245566

Re: Amen Lisa, running for popcorn and a coke!

Cali, may be a lot of things , but rookie isnt one of them. Cali knows what he's doing. The old saying, open mouth insert foot comes to mind.
Maybe this person is kidding, at least I hope so for their sake.

Reply by CaliNotary on 4/29/08 2:23pm
Msg #245572

Re: Amen Lisa, running for popcorn and a coke!

"Cali knows what he's doing"

Yep. But I will freely confess that when I'm double checking docs I only glance to make sure there's something on every signature line. I don't actually read each signature to make sure it matches exactly what's typed on every page.

Some will disagree with me, but I never try to force somebody sign docs in a way that's different than their normal legal signature. I wouldn't do it myself, so I'm not about to ask others to do it either. Your signature is your signature, if you want to use an X as your signature you have every right to do so.

Reply by Terri_CA on 4/30/08 2:15pm
Msg #245718

Re: Amen Lisa, running for popcorn and a coke!

While I agree that one should not "force" one to sign in a particular manner, I do believe that it is our responsibility to see that the signer signs consistently on all docs. I watch the borrower, if they deviate from how they have been signing, that's an error, and I pull out the borrower's copy of that document and ask them to resign and explain politely that all docs need to be signed the same way otherwise.... lender could reject the signing of the docs.

Thus, I do what I can to maintain consistency. Yes, this may make the signing take longer but it certainly keeps me from having to go back on my dime and be asked to backdate.

All that being said, doesn't make the request of backdating any less illegal.

Terri
Lancaster, CA

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 4/29/08 2:13pm
Msg #245568

Re: OMG...want some salt with that crow?... n/m

Reply by LisaWI on 4/29/08 7:44pm
Msg #245619

Re: OMG...want some salt with that crow?... OK, I did

the research, and came up with nada. What the heck does this mean Linda? "want some salt with that crow?" I cant figure it out, lol. Please educate me

Reply by christiSocal on 4/29/08 8:25pm
Msg #245624

Not Linda, but old enough to know

It's an old saying. Same as eating your words. Old people language...

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 4/29/08 8:31pm
Msg #245626

Old people language??!!! WELL!!...Harumph!!...LOL n/m

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 4/29/08 8:29pm
Msg #245625

Okay - how about this?

Some whipped cream with that humble pie?

From Wikipedia: "Eating crow (archaically, eating boiled crow) is an English idiom meaning humiliation by admitting wrongness or having been proven wrong after taking a strong position.


[edit] Origin
It is most likely an Americanization of the English “to eat humble pie.” The English phrase is something of a pun—“umbles” were the intestines and other unsavories of a deer. Pies made of this were known to be served to those of lesser class who did not eat at the king’s/lord’s/governor’s table.

It may also be the American version of "umble," since the OED defines crow (sb3) as meaning 'intestine or mesentery of an animal' and cites usages from the 1600s into the 1800s (e.g., Farley, Lond Art of Cookery: "the harslet, which consists of the liver, crow, kidneys, and skirts."

Another dish likely to be served with humble pie is rook pie (rooks being closely related to crows). This may be another clue as to how humble pie became boiled crow"

Eat one's words, so to speak...

Reply by CaliNotary on 4/29/08 2:19pm
Msg #245570

"What kind of notary doesn't check docs and make corrections before leaving.
What a rookie. You don't deserve ANY signings!"

But they offered $65 for edocs! I think that's good money to do a notary.

Reply by elk4us on 4/29/08 2:24pm
Msg #245574

Is this Pacific Alliance or Pacific Document that you are having problems with???

Reply by christiSocal on 4/29/08 3:08pm
Msg #245581

65$ to DO a notary, ummmmmmm, just what line of business are you in Cali????

Reply by JanetK_CA on 4/29/08 9:54pm
Msg #245636

LOL!!!!!! n/m

Reply by Terri_CA on 4/30/08 2:20pm
Msg #245719

I was raised by my paternal grandparents. One of the things my grandfather taught me, which has stuck by me, is that no matter what you accept as payment for services or job provided, you should always give them 100% of your expertise, skill, etc. So, if I'm doing a $75.00 signing or $300+ signing, I give it 100%.

Just because I decided to accept a lower payment, doesn't mean that the client/customer gets a shoddy job. I could have turned it down.

So my suggestion is that if you are going to give poor work for poor pay, don't accept the poor pay assignment!!!

Terri
Lancaster, CA