Posted by Firered6/OH on 4/18/08 11:20am
Msg #243981
Back Dating?
A title company found a document that I missed a notarization on. I notarizaed the bottom but not the top section....This closing was over 30 days ago. They wanted me to notarize the top and back date it. They were trying to bully me into doing it..Is it ever okay to back date?
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Reply by Sylvia_FL on 4/18/08 11:28am
Msg #243982
No, it is never OK to backdate.
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Reply by Firered6/OH on 4/18/08 11:37am
Msg #243983
I didn't think so. they were realy trying to bully me into doing....I kept telling her no That it was illegal to back date but she just kept saying you made the misstake and need to correct your mistake...Finally, today she said they are deducting the amount of money to hire another notary out of my fee for someone else to correct my mistake. I said fine, that's cheaper than me losing my bond and commision.
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Reply by Sylvia_FL on 4/18/08 11:52am
Msg #243984
I would have told her that you would have no problem correcting your mistake at your expense, however that you would not break the law to do it.
Hmm are they going to get another notary to break the law.
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Reply by Firered6/OH on 4/18/08 11:54am
Msg #243985
that's what i'm wondering
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Reply by Leon_CO on 4/18/08 12:01pm
Msg #243987
notarized top but not bottom
>> I notarizaed the bottom but not the top section.... <<
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Could you be more specific about what you did (and didn't do)? What type of document was it? What did you leave out? Etc.
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Reply by Gerry_VT on 4/18/08 12:02pm
Msg #243988
There are two steps to doing a notarization. Step 1: the signer takes an oath/affermation, or the signer tells you he/she acknowledges his/her execution of the document. You must never pretend this step happened on a different date than it really did, no matter what state you are in.
Step 2: the notary fills out a record (jurat or acknowledgement certificate) that the signer took an oath/affirmation or gave an acknowledgement. When you are allowed to fill out this certificate would depend on state law. Some places, you might have to do it immediately; other places might allow you to do it later.
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Reply by ItsMe123 on 4/18/08 12:42pm
Msg #243991
I may know the exact doc you are referring to
I might know exactly what doc the poster is referring to.
There is a lender (who for the life of me I can't remember who -- if I rememebr I will update this post so others can look out for it) who combines 2 notary docs on 1 page -- I am trying to remember what 2 docs they are (I think one is the sign aff) as I came across the exact same thing and very luckily just as I was going to flip the doc over during the signing noticed the bottom. The way they lay it out is VERY easy to miss --- I am sure this is a frequent problem for them --- a notary just doesn't expect these 2 docs to be combined like this. Why they do it and/or do not mention it in the instructions is beyond me as I would put a buck or 2 that thye get a lot of them back
Best advie I can give is that if the loan you are doing is being funder by a lender you do not do often or haven't done before, really try to look a the whole doc. This one is REALLY EASY to miss ---- The bottom of the doc has the stuff somewhat crammed in and IIRC the notary section is so small it is even hard to notarize. It is a doc BEGGING to be missed IMHO
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Reply by Linda_H/FL on 4/18/08 1:17pm
Msg #244003
Re: I may know the exact doc you are referring to
"There is a lender (who for the life of me I can't remember who -- if I rememebr I will update this post so others can look out for it) who combines 2 notary docs on 1 page -- I am trying to remember what 2 docs they are (I think one is the sign aff) as I came across the exact same thing and very luckily just as I was going to flip the doc over during the signing noticed the bottom. ...
Did one like this yesterday...JPMorgan Chase/All Star Title....is that the one?
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Reply by Shelly/PA on 4/18/08 1:21pm
Msg #244006
Re: I may know the exact doc you are referring to
I just did one for JP Morgan Chase Name Affidavit and below is the Signature Affidavit.
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Reply by CaliNotary on 4/18/08 12:45pm
Msg #243992
This might not be backdating
I'm assuming it was signed by the borrower on the same date as the other documents. So it's not backdating to notarize stating that the borrower appeared in front of you on that date. In fact, it would be illegal to do it with today's date if that were the case. It just depends on what the laws of your state are regarding filling out a notarization after the fact.
Of course, if they wanted you to get a fresh signature from the borrower, then yeah, that's obviously backdating.
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Reply by Leon_CO on 4/18/08 12:51pm
Msg #243994
Re: This might not be backdating
That is what I was thinking too. There is a difference between **backdating** and making a correction to a notarial certificate.
That is why I asked the poster to be more clear about what it is they were supposed to do.
No, **never backdate**. Yes, make corrections if necessary.
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Reply by MistarellaFL on 4/18/08 12:58pm
Msg #243996
make corrections if necessary
And legal.
Some states won't allow corrections to the notarial section after the fact.
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Reply by Leon_CO on 4/18/08 12:59pm
Msg #243998
Re: make corrections if necessary
Good point.
Always check **your** state notary laws.
Thanks for adding that.
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Reply by Sylvia_FL on 4/18/08 12:59pm
Msg #243997
Re: This might not be backdating
I know all state laws are different, so this pertains to Florida notaries.
In Florida we cannot make corrections to a certificate after the fact. If we miss something on a document, we have to return to the signer and have them acknowledge the signature (or take the oath and sign) again.
At the time of notarization the signer must be in the presence of the notary.
As I said, this pertains to Florida.
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Reply by John_NorCal on 4/18/08 1:03pm
Msg #243999
Re: This might not be backdating ---- exactly!
These are my thoughts too. As Cali has asked, did the borrower indeed sign that document on the date in question? Another poster stated it's very easy to miss that document's signature block at the top and at the bottom. Doesn't make sense to me either, but the key is was that document presented to the borrower? As you have stated they did sign the paper but there were two places for you to notarize. Assuming that the second place to notarize was not a seperate paragraph that the borrowers had to acknowledge, then this probably, just probably is not a case of back dating.
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Reply by Leon_CO on 4/18/08 2:09pm
Msg #244013
2 notary sections
I'm doing a JP Morgan Chase loan today and I just noticed something as I was going over the documents.
I don't know if this is the same document, but there are 2 sections:
1) SIGNATURE CERTIFICATION/AFFIDAVIT
2) NAME AFFIDAVIT
The interesting thing is that under the NAME AFFIDAVIT it states: "Complete if AKA (also known as) is required.
So the question is, was there a AKA? (assuming this is the document in question)
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Reply by Firered6/OH on 4/18/08 2:26pm
Msg #244015
Re: 2 notary sections
This was a compliance agreement. The signers were in the state of OHio on vacation. They lived in Maryland. They refinanced their house while they were in Idaho visiting their kids. Their planed landed here in Ohio and i met them over at their other kids house to sign the papers. Everything that needed to be notarized had maryland filled in for the state so of course i crossed it out and wrote ohio... I got confused because the top notarization said maryland and the bottom one was blank. So i just filled in the bottom one and notarized the bottom only. It made no sense to me why there were 2 acknowledgements on the same paper. There was nothing else on the paper just an acknowledgement for maryland on the top and a blank one on the bottom...The lady said it went with a compliance agreement. I don't know why i didn't do the top one, it was a little confusing. The company has came back to me 30 days later and they want me to acknowledge the top. I would have to put that original date in that section. That's backdating and it's illegal, it is not correcting it's backdating.
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Reply by Firered6/OH on 4/18/08 2:28pm
Msg #244016
Re: 2 notary sections
Someone just sent me a nasty email about this. What's wrong too afraid to talk in the open?
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Reply by Leon_CO on 4/18/08 2:40pm
Msg #244021
Re: 2 notary sections
>> This was a compliance agreement. <<
It's hard to say without seeing the actual document, but you may see 2 types of "Compliance Agreement" in a stack of loan documents. This may be a case where the lender put them both on the same document.
One of the documents is a "Compliance Agreement" (or some variation of that name). The other is a "Limited Power of Attorney ..." (or some variation of that name) to correct documents.
Perhaps the lender put both on the same document and wanted both notarized separately.
>> It made no sense to me why there were 2 acknowledgements on the same paper. <<
Very little of what we do makes sense. 
Good luck.
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Reply by SoCal Signing Co. on 4/18/08 3:10pm
Msg #244026
Re: 2 notary sections
I dont know if your referring to me, if so my intention was not being nasty, I was telling you that if you forgot or missed something, you can fix it very easily by telling them you will send an all purpose acknowledgement or Jurat
using this form will cover the issue.
When its just the notary part, it should go well
I have had notaries use all purpose acknowledgements and jurats in Ohio so im assuming that you can.
am i missing something here?
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Reply by Leon_CO on 4/18/08 3:30pm
Msg #244028
Loose Acks sink ships
>> you can fix it very easily by telling them you will send an all purpose acknowledgement or Jurat <<
My Secretary of State would take me out back to the wood shed and give me a whoopin' if I did something like that.
I would suggest starting with a clean slate. Redo it. Get both sections signed and notarized with the same date. It seems that the company is primarily concerned about 2 different dates.
But under no circumstances should you backdate, or send a notarized loose certificate.
Good luck.
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Reply by Firered6/OH on 4/18/08 3:38pm
Msg #244030
Re: Loose Acks sink ships
thank you
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Reply by Firered6/OH on 4/18/08 3:37pm
Msg #244029
Re: 2 notary sections
they don't want that. they want me to notarize and put the original date on it...
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Reply by lindetteh_PA on 4/18/08 4:29pm
Msg #244041
Re: 2 notary sections
How is it backdateing if the borrower signed it on the original date and you forgot or missed placing your seal on it IMHO it would only be backdating if the borrower didn't sign it and they wanted them to sign it now and you put the old date on it. if there are two Acknowlegments on the page were there two places for them to sign if not what difference would it make if the ACK at the bottom was used I have seen docs like this before and only used both if there were two borrowers and each ACK only had he/she and not they leading me to believe they wanted them seperate but if you put they both appeared I would think the one Ack would cover the whole document
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Reply by CaliNotary on 4/18/08 10:11pm
Msg #244076
Re: 2 notary sections
"I would have to put that original date in that section. That's backdating and it's illegal, it is not correcting it's backdating."
How is it backdating? An acknowledgment states that the person appeared in front of you on XX date. If the date they want you to fill in is the same date that you did the signing then that is the ONLY date you could use. Nowhere on an acknowledgment does it specifically ask for today's date.
This is all I could find on the Ohio SOS website. Nowhere does it say that you can't complete an acknowledgment after the fact, so unless there's some other regulations that I couldn't find, I'd say there would be no problem for you to complete the acknowledgment with the date of the signing. And I love how they call the acknowledgment wording a jurat and have acknowledgment spelled three different ways:
4. Acknowledgements: Acknowledgments appear on many legal instruments such as deeds, mortgages, liens, and powers of attorney. These instruments may be already completed and signed when brought to you. Your function as notary public is to administer an oath and complete the acknowledgment form. If you are not admitted to the practice of law, it is illegal for you to prepare instruments themselves, with violation punishable as contempt of court and by permanent revocation of your notary public commission.
Before certifying an acknowkedgment, satisfy yourself as to the identity of the person acknowledging the document. Then ask the person to raise his or her right hand. While the person’s hand is raised, ask the person, “Do you swear (or attest) that the information contained in this document is true?” or words that are substantially equivalent. Next, have the person sign his or her name on the document at the place provided. Finally, complete the notarial statement (“jurat”) by inserting the correct date, signing your own name as it appears on your commission, stamping your rubber stamp below your name, and embossing your notarial seal over or near your signature.
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Reply by MikeC/NY on 4/18/08 4:38pm
Msg #244044
We're in a fuzzy area here...
Even if they signed it on that date, the notary was unaware that a notarization was required and they didn't acknowledge their signatures in front of her at that time. I may be splitting hairs too finely here, but that doesn't sound like a correction to me - it sounds like the notarial act was never performed.
To me, a correction (assuming she's in a state that allows corrections to notarial certificates) would be something like signing it and forgetting to stamp or vice versa, leaving off the venue, spelling the signers names wrong, etc - anything where it's pretty clear that the notary actually had the document and the signers in front of her at the same time. A completely missed notarization is a different animal; I think it would be backdating to do the whole thing after the fact, especially since she can't show that they actually signed that section on that date.
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Reply by SoCal Signing Co. on 4/18/08 6:32pm
Msg #244053
Re: We're in a fuzzy area here...
I think Mike you may be splitting hairs to finely,
she even has a 2nd notarization on the same page.
Its not back dating to correct your error as a notary. A signing agent (notary public) is liable for errors he or she might make that result in additional cots to the lending parties or borrowers.
e&o might be affected.
the borrower did their part, the signing agent needs to correct this.
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Reply by MikeC/NY on 4/19/08 10:37pm
Msg #244179
Re: We're in a fuzzy area here...
<< she even has a 2nd notarization on the same page. >>
That's like saying that there were other notarizations in the same package, so it must be OK... One has nothing to do with the other. If she missed the second notarial block, she may have missed the second set of signatures as well - in which case it's impossible for her to "correct" an acknowledgment that never happened.
<< the borrower did their part, the signing agent needs to correct this>>
Absolutely - but the signing agent can only do what state law allows.
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Reply by Rachel/ORWA on 4/18/08 9:23pm
Msg #244074
Re: We're in a fuzzy area here...
If I "missed" an acknowledgment on a document the borrower signed in front of me, I'd have no problem notarizing the original with the signing date, or sending a "loose" acknowledgment with verbiage referencing that document specifically. I believe both Oregon and Washington laws allow this. Other states may be different.
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Reply by JanetK_CA on 4/18/08 11:55pm
Msg #244092
Re: We're in a fuzzy area here...
I think you make a good point. Do you have to keep a sequential journal in Ohio? If so, another potential pertinent fact would be whether or not the notarization was recorded in the journal on that date. If it was, and the borrower signed off on it, then it would seem to be a correction. If no entry was made in the journal regarding the document - or portion of the document - in question, then I suppose it could be argued that an Acknowledgement was not completed, even though they personally appeared and signed the document on that date.
I'm not an attorney, so this is not legal advice, natcherly [sic]! Just speculation, on my part -- and definitely subject to state law...
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Reply by MichiganAl on 4/18/08 10:32pm
Msg #244078
I don't see it as backdating at all
They signed it on that date, you witnessed them signing it on that date, you missed notarizing it. You're not backdating. You're dating it for the date you witnessed them sign.
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Reply by MW/VA on 4/20/08 7:34am
Msg #244191
I'm confused by your use of the word "bullying". They offered you an opportunity to CORRECT YOUR MISTAKE. I suppose you could choose to refuse & get sued.
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