Posted by Jeremy Brown on 4/22/08 10:31am
Msg #244480

People who go by their middle names.

I have a client who goes by his middle name of chris. The document is drawn up with his middle and last names. His license is Joseph Christopher. Can that be notarized or does the document need to be redrawn? Thanks for the help as i did not find anything in the search.

Reply by TRG_wy on 4/22/08 10:33am
Msg #244481

Is his name Joseph Chris Christopher? Not clear here.

Reply by Jeremy Brown on 4/22/08 10:34am
Msg #244482

His full name is Joseph Christopher Parker. The Doc. says Chris Parker.

Reply by lindetteh_PA on 4/22/08 10:38am
Msg #244484

I wouldn't notorarize unless the docs matched the ID I have had this happen before and I let the TC know that he /she doesn't have Id to support the way the docs are drawn

Reply by sue_pa on 4/22/08 10:50am
Msg #244493

must be a PA thing

I've never understood the 'more is acceptable' that I read on these boards. Joseph Parker and Chris Parker are DIFFERENT.

Reply by TRG_wy on 4/22/08 11:00am
Msg #244496

Re: must be a PA thing

How different? How can you not say that Joseph Christopher Parker is NOT Chris Parker?

Are you then saying that every loan you close is vested exactly as their name is presented on photo ID? No middle initial, full middle name only? In all the 4000 plus closing i've completed I would wager a bet that less than ten were "exactly" as ID shows.

Reply by jojo_MN on 4/22/08 10:42am
Msg #244486

Joseph Christopher Parker

Is there an AKA statement? If so, have him print and/or sign all of the variation.
Joseph C. Parker
Joseph Parker
J Christopher Parker
Christopher Parker
Chris Parker

I run into this all of the time. As long as you can verify that he is the person. He might have all three names on his d.l., ss card and birth certificate. I would never use a ss card or birth certificate for identification, but I would use it to verify his name if he goes by his middle name.

Reply by TRG_wy on 4/22/08 10:43am
Msg #244487

You should be fine then if his photo ID lists his full name. Chris is commonly accepted as shorthand for Christopher as is Bill or Wm for William, Tim for Timothy .... you get the gist.

I have noticed over the years that a lot of people born in the 1950s especially will use their middle name. I fall into that group as well. Everything I own and have registered is either T. Russell Gilroy, or Russell Gilroy. My DL and passport list my full and complete name. The only reason I use my first name at all is for my notary commission.

Reply by jojo_MN on 4/22/08 10:46am
Msg #244489

I use my first initial only on my notary commission. My drivers license, ss card and everything else also only have my first initial. I've never run into a problem with it.

Reply by TRG_wy on 4/22/08 10:48am
Msg #244491

Wish I could do that for my commission here. Wyoming requires "legal" first name.

Reply by TRG_wy on 4/22/08 10:47am
Msg #244490

I agree with the above about using the AKA. If they haven't already entered any AKA in, there is nothing preventing you from doing it. Just add his name as shown on the proper ID and have hime sign the AKA that way.

Reply by Loretta on 4/22/08 11:37am
Msg #244502

My husband's proper name is Raymond David Reed. His father's name is Raymond and so is his grandfather's. We call my husband David, we have our home titled in "David Reed". His drivers license, birth certificate and social security card say Raymond David Reed. His credit cards even say David. We simply did an aka aff on the purchase of our home and loans. There is no reason a notary would not have witnessed his signature because he goes by his middle name.

My 2cents.

Reply by Jeremy Brown on 4/22/08 11:27am
Msg #244500

Thanks for all the help!

Reply by janCA on 4/22/08 11:53am
Msg #244504

No!

If his license is Joseph Christopher and the docs are drawn with Chris Parker, then no, that is not acceptable ID in CA. Totally different names.

Reply by TRG_wy on 4/22/08 11:59am
Msg #244508

Re: No!

No so.

I had many proporties and all vehicles in CA all titled as T. Russell Gilroy and my IDs all showed my FULL name. I am the same person.

Reply by janCA on 4/22/08 12:06pm
Msg #244509

Re: No!

What am I missing here? The ID is Joseph Christopher and the doc is drawn in Chris Parker. Or is the ID Joseph Christopher Parker?

Reply by TRG_wy on 4/22/08 12:08pm
Msg #244510

Re: No!

ID is Joseph Christopher Parker and are drawn as Chris Parker.

The initial post wasn't that clear.

Reply by Calnotary on 4/22/08 12:27pm
Msg #244511

Clear as water! You can not notarize like that!

You are talking different names here.

Reply by davidK/CA on 4/22/08 12:37pm
Msg #244516

Ah, but the original question was from California.

Out here, in the land of fruits and nuts we do things differently. ID requirements are very specific, and we no longer can use personal knowledge as a basis for identification. Today I have to notarize a non-financial document for my son-in-law, and I have to write down in my journal his ID info directly from his driver's license. We can't use a SS card or a credit card or a Costco card with a picture as ID in California. The allowed types of documents are specified in detail in the law.

The "more or less" rule is simple and easy to understand.

First, the best of all worlds is when everything matches exactly.

If not, is the name on the document more complete (longer) than on the ID? If it is Christopher on the doc and Chris on the ID you can't prove the ID matches. If the ID just shows an initial such as "C." you have big problems unless the document is made out as "C.". Chris might actually be just Chris, and not actually Christopher. Lots of times you have a "Jr." without a complete ID showing Jr. If the document says Jr. you can't notarize.

If it is Chris on the document and Christopher on the ID you can authenticate the ID because Chris is part of Christopher.

As for other states, you should follow your state's rules, but California's rules are clearly better to really positively identify a person.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 4/22/08 1:51pm
Msg #244529

Re: Ah, but the original question was from California.

"If it is Chris on the document and Christopher on the ID you can authenticate the ID because Chris is part of Christopher"

But if Christopher is the middle name on the ID, and Christopher is the first name on the docs and no middle name. How do you know that James Christopher Parker on the ID is the same person as Christopher Parker on the documents?

Reply by Calnotary on 4/22/08 12:30pm
Msg #244513

License: Joseph Christopher
The Doc. says Chris Parker

Reply by Merry_CA on 4/22/08 1:05pm
Msg #244520

Thank you Calnotary! Don't have time to go into the detail you did.... but thank you for clearing this up.... CA notary law is very specific about IDing.... we would not be able to notarize the signer as presented in the original postn CA.

Reply by TRG_wy on 4/22/08 1:24pm
Msg #244523

License says Joesph Christopher Parker, not just Joseph Christopher, Doc says Chris Parker.

Reply by Calnotary on 4/22/08 1:57pm
Msg #244530

Timothy you have to re read the original post:

I have a client who goes by his middle name of chris. The document is drawn up with his middle and last names. His license is Joseph Christopher. Can that be notarized or does the document need to be redrawn? Thanks for the help as i did not find anything in the search.


So the lic is without the Parker right? In CA you can't do this. And I hope the original poster is not using the real name of the borrower. LOL!

Reply by TRG_wy on 4/22/08 1:59pm
Msg #244533

Re: Timothy you have to re read the original post:

No - I asked for clearification too. See his response in post #3

Reply by Maureen_nh on 4/22/08 12:54pm
Msg #244519

How did he sign his license?
Sometimes this has saved me, as they will sign as customary and it is on their ID.

Reply by Shannon_Va on 4/22/08 2:24pm
Msg #244536

When I have a name

that is different from the id to the docs drawn, I always verify how they took title to the property. The docs should show the name the way they took title. Then I have them write out every possible variation on the name affidavit and sign it the way it is written if the title co can't or won't have the docs changed.
I have never had a problem with that.

But each state is not the same.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 4/22/08 3:20pm
Msg #244544

But a Name Affidavit or A/K/A Affidavit are not

acceptable forms of identification - it may tie the lender/title paperwork together with does nothing for proper notary identification...

Reply by TRG_wy on 4/22/08 3:44pm
Msg #244552

Re: But a Name Affidavit or A/K/A Affidavit are not

Intresting point.

Then when the lender/escrow/title pre-prints every name variation they can think of and has the borrower sign each way; by having us notarize it we are attesting that we have verified each one. Should we then line through each one EXCEPT the one as presentd on the photo ID?

Reply by WDMD on 4/22/08 4:35pm
Msg #244566

Re: But a Name Affidavit or A/K/A Affidavit are not

" by having us notarize it we are attesting that we have verified each one. "

Any name, signature or AKA affidavit I have ever seen had a jurat attached where the borrower would be swearing they are or could be known by the names listed, not that I verified those names.

Reply by jojo_MN on 4/22/08 4:37pm
Msg #244569

Re: But a Name Affidavit or A/K/A Affidavit are not

We are not acknowleding that we verified each name, we are acknowledging that the signer printed and signed each name.

Reply by TRG_wy on 4/22/08 5:22pm
Msg #244576

Re: But a Name Affidavit or A/K/A Affidavit are not

Every Signature Name Affidavit I see is worded as follows:

List of all names ...

.... "And that ...(all names get plugged in here)...... are one in the same person.
State of ....
County of ...

Reply by WDMD on 4/22/08 5:37pm
Msg #244581

Re: But a Name Affidavit or A/K/A Affidavit are not

"Every Signature Name Affidavit I see is worded as follows:

List of all names ...

.... "And that ...(all names get plugged in here)...... are one in the same person.
State of ....
County of ..."

And that is what the borrower is swearing to. You are not verifying it.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 4/22/08 5:49pm
Msg #244583

WDMD - did you get PM I sent you yesterday? n/m

Reply by WDMD on 4/22/08 6:30pm
Msg #244589

Re: WDMD - did you get PM I sent you yesterday?

Yes I did Sylvia. The person you referenced would be one of many who are unlicensed. Also, if you follow this link, you will find out about the fidelity bond.

http://www.mdinsurance.state.md.us/sa/jsp/Mia.jsp

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 4/22/08 8:28pm
Msg #244612

Re: WDMD - Thanks:) n/m

Reply by Loretta on 4/22/08 9:00pm
Msg #244626

Re: WDMD - did you get PM I sent you yesterday?

You know what scares me, when I went onto the MIA website, I noticed that someone with my name, except for an "e" on the end of the middle name, is listed there. Not too many people with the same name as mine. Freaky!

Reply by TRG_wy on 4/22/08 6:06pm
Msg #244587

Re: But a Name Affidavit or A/K/A Affidavit are not

That has always been my contention too but why do "I" need to write in every name? I have been called on this a few times. - BTW, I am agreeing with you.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 4/22/08 7:13pm
Msg #244596

Re: But a Name Affidavit or A/K/A Affidavit are not

I have the borrower write in each name they're known by..then sign that name...

I don't fill out anything except the notarial cert.

Reply by lindetteh_PA on 4/22/08 7:56pm
Msg #244604

Re: But a Name Affidavit or A/K/A Affidavit are not

I don't understand how any notary can say with any degree of certainty that Joseph Christopher Parker and Chris Parker are the same person. If it is an ok practice to just use his middle name then why does his drivers license have his first and middle probably because they wouldn't issue one stateing he was Chris Parker. I had a signing last year where the docs were drawn as Jane Betty Doe the borrower's Id was Betty Doe I would not notatrize the docs because she could not produce anything that had the complete name. Two days later I received a call from the lender or TC questioning me about the signing during there investigation they found out that the real Jane Betty Doe was in a nursing home her daughter who's name was Betty Doe was trying to refinance her mothers house without her knowledge and her sister called them. They thanked me for a job well done. So again I ask how can anyone notarize a signature that doesn't match the ID

Reply by TRG_wy on 4/22/08 8:22pm
Msg #244609

Re: But a Name Affidavit or A/K/A Affidavit are not

Job well done.

Your last sentence states "So again I ask how can anyone notarize a signature that doesn't match the ID". The "signature" wasn't the point in question here, the full complete name was.

I always compare the signatures too. I have never seen a signature on the DL with full middle name signed out even if it is shown on the license. Mine certaintly isn't. Often there may be only a middle initial or none at all. Sometimes I see the wife's maiden name hypheneated but not shown on the docs.

Bottom line is that you wll not see 100% of the names match 100% of the time. The notary has to use best judgement and experience. That being said, photos and signatures say a lot. Know your state requirements but do not read into them. Reading some of the posts in this thread I wonder how any docs get signed at all.

Reply by lindetteh_PA on 4/22/08 8:36pm
Msg #244619

Re: But a Name Affidavit or A/K/A Affidavit are not

I understood perfectly what the point was maybe you didn't didn't understand my point. I would never let someone sign a different name than what is on their Id even with a A/K/A Affiavit. Your last sentence states "Know your state requirements but do not read into them"
I think that reading into and following them is the whole point of having them.

Reply by TRG_wy on 4/23/08 12:51pm
Msg #244707

Re: But a Name Affidavit or A/K/A Affidavit are not

"Reading into" anything means NOT to look for more than the author intended. Following it is one thing, but trying to 'read' more into what is there is what i am saying.

"I would never let someone sign a different name than what is on their Id even with a A/K/A Affiavit". Then you sure wouldn't be doing much work, at least up here and in my over ten years experience. In my over 50 years I have NEVER signed my name as shown on my ID.

Reply by sue_pa on 4/22/08 8:25pm
Msg #244610

Re: But a Name Affidavit or A/K/A Affidavit are not

according to PAN, you're right for PA. I had the exact same situation (not family turmoil but name wise) a few years ago. A CA signing service tried to convince me I was wrong. Not that a CA signing service could ever convince me they know more about PA notarial law than I do but I checked and they said, amazingly, that I could not notarize for John Harvey Smith when his id said Harvey Smith.

Reply by janCA on 4/22/08 8:36pm
Msg #244620

Re: But a Name Affidavit or A/K/A Affidavit are not

All identifying factors have to be thrown in with the less not more than what is on the ID. Signature, date of birth, color of hair, eyes, height, weight, even though some of these could have changed. In the situation where the daughter is trying to refinance for her mother, all of the identifying factors would have been a clue. And especially, the signature. In CA if the docs stated Harvey Smith and the ID read John Harvey Smith, and all identifying factors were there, one could notarize these docs.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 4/22/08 11:56pm
Msg #244639

Re: But a Name Affidavit or A/K/A Affidavit are not

Please tell me where in CA law does the "less, not more" appear? CA notary law IS very specific regarding what type of ID is allowed, but I'm not aware of anywhere where it says how to interpret what is on the ID. That rule is commonly taught, and probably a very useful rule of thumb, but with the vast differences in the way people use their names, it seems practically impossible to be able to cover every possibility. There are bound to be some gray areas that require some common sense and perhaps some extra care.

"In CA if the docs stated Harvey Smith and the ID read John Harvey Smith, and all identifying factors were there, one could notarize these docs."

This has nothing to do with CA, but only one's own interpretation. In a situation like this, I would probably, on it's face, consider this acceptable ID, according to law. BUT, I'd also probably ask to see if they had anything else that showed their name as on the documents, for my own comfort level. If they have a wallet full of credit cards with their name as "Harvey Smith" and the documents have the name "Harvey Smith", that is good enough for me. If everything showed "John Smith" or "John Harvey Smith", then red flags start to go up. But it's just not realistic to expect that people are always going to have taken title with their name exactly how they have it on their ID. When they purchase a property, the last thing they are thinking of is what the notary will need to confirm their identity.

Naturally, we should follow the law and do our best to achieve a reasonable certainty that the person appearing before us is the same person named in the document. I should add, though, that if the ID said Harvey Smith and the docs said John Harvey Smith, I very likely wouldn't consider that adequate. That may seem arbitrary -- and I suppose it is, to some extent -- but we each have to use what we feel comfortable with. I was taught that rule, too, and it has a tendency to stick (for good reason) -- but let's be clear about what the law does or does not say.

Reply by Terri_CA on 4/23/08 7:21pm
Msg #244771

Re: CA ID and Names

CA SOS does all the authorized vendors to teach "less or same but not more." How do I know, because the material I used to use to teach with was approved by the SOS. And we did teach that the ID can have more or the same, but not less than what they are signing. Further, the ID must have a signature but nowhere in the CA notary handbook does it state that the Notary is to compare the signature on the ID document to the signature that they are signing on the document being notarized, only that the ID document have one.

Now with all that being said.... the certificate wording clearly states that the Notary was provided "satisfactory evidence" of ID. So if the notary is satisfied with the ID that is presented to them, then it's up to them to defend what they accepted if it becomes an issue later on down the line.

If the ID said Joseph Christopher Parker and the signer was signing Chris Parker, I would accept the id. I put in my journal the name as it appears on the ID and request that they sign my journal they way they will be signing the document. I get thumbprints for every document I notarize. I've not had one person refuse to give me a thumbprint.

We all perform the way we feel we should according to law. No one but the notary has to defend what they do. While me may all do it differently, it doesn't mean only one is right. We can all be right, just different.

Terri
Lancaster, CA