Posted by Robert/VA on 4/18/08 8:25pm
Msg #244061

Smoking Borrowers??

I was at a closing today, in which not only did the borrowers smoke non-stop, their 2 adult sons, and 1 adult daughter smoked! I was barely able to speak, with an immediate allergic reaction, constricting my throat, burning my eyes. Of course, this signing took "forever" with many issues with the lender and loan officer! After the signing, I couldn't wait to come home to wash and change my clothes. (I am still airing out my car with the windows down!).
The borrowers did not think to ask me if I "minded" their smoking. I realize I am in peoples homes, but when it comes down to having allergic reactions and health issues, I am wondering if any Notaries mention to borrowers...."Excuse me, but could you please refrain from smoking while we sign"??!
My eyes are still stinging!!!!

Reply by Cari on 4/18/08 8:28pm
Msg #244062

just finished smoking, sprayed floral scent...BIG MISTAKE!

When I arrived at the borrowers home, the home smelled like cigarette smoke AND some cheap @ss floral air freshner which of course, make things worse...well, what made things worse was the horse of a dog they had jumping all over me...

I too am allergic and can't stand the smell.

I think if it is life threatening, you should say something. JMHO.

Reply by Jacqueline Dyson on 4/18/08 8:33pm
Msg #244063

Maybe I am wrong, but it is their house and they have a right to do whatever they want in their home. Maybe you can tell them you have allergies which can lead to dangerous results and ask them if it would be better to move the signing session out doors so that they can be free to smoke. Works like a charm everytime.

Reply by JanetLA on 4/18/08 8:43pm
Msg #244066

I don't smoke and I am not allergic but

secondhand smoke is terrible for you. I know that being in second hand smoke for 30 minutes is supposed to be the same as smoking a cigarette yourself. I have never and probably will never ask them not to smoke in their own homes. However, I can't wait to get home and shower and feel clean again. Too bad they some smokers think that blowing their smoke in the opposite direction of a non-smoker is polite...

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 4/18/08 8:47pm
Msg #244067

Re: I don't smoke and I am not allergic but

Several doctors I have seen have told my husband not to smoke around me - I have health issues. He stopped for a while but started again. He cannot be convinced that his smoking is affecting my health.

Reply by Dorothy_MI on 4/19/08 1:42pm
Msg #244145

Re: I don't smoke and I am not allergic but

Over the course of my marriage my husband stopped (and started) smoking. Each time he would stop and then start in again (2days to 2 months later) I would call him on it. And each time I called him on it he would go back to smoking with me in the room, in the car, smoking section of the restaurant, etc. The last time he "quit" I got smart and when I smelt the smoke on him KEPT MY MOUTH SHUT. I became, blind, deaf, dumb and lost my sense of smell. The end result, it didn't stop him from smoking, but it did stop him from smoking in my presence so at least I didn't have to smell it. The upside was that if we would go out to eat I always got dropped off and the door and he would drive to the far end of the parking lot (so he could catch a quick smoke on the way in). He would also have me wait at the door to be picked up for the same reason. I learned I couldn't control all of his actions, but I did have control over what he did when I was around. If the last time he "quit" I'd have mentioned that I smelled cigarettes on him he would have immediately gone back to smoking in my presence. The last time he "quit" lasted about 10 years!

Reply by Carolyn Bodley on 4/19/08 5:41pm
Msg #244162

Re: I don't smoke and I am not allergic but

**secondhand smoke is terrible for you. I know that being in second hand smoke for 30 minutes is supposed to be the same as smoking a cigarette yourself.**

Well, all of us baby boomers that grew up in the 40's, 50's and 60's where smoking was the most natural thing -- just watch a few of the old black-and-white TV programs or movies -- must really be in deep do-do then.

Reply by Ilene C. Seidel on 4/21/08 7:33am
Msg #244239

Re: I don't smoke and I am not allergic but

When a borrower agrees to conduct business in his house it becomes a public domain. You have the right to ask they put the cigaretts OUT! And if they give you a hard time call the signing company/title company.
I've never had a borrower give me a hard time when I've asked they not smoke and usually you can tell they smoke when you talk to them over the phone (raspy voice), I then tell them I have medical problem with smoke and ask the house be aired out and no smoking until I leave.
They are always accommodating.

Reply by Richelle Griffin on 4/18/08 8:50pm
Msg #244069

I am a smoker myself and do not smoke inside my home. I would think that the bo would have the common decency to not smoke while a guest is in their home.

Reply by CaliNotary on 4/18/08 10:20pm
Msg #244077

"but when it comes down to having allergic reactions and health issues, I am wondering if any Notaries mention to borrowers...."Excuse me, but could you please refrain from smoking while we sign"??!"

If you have allergic reactions and health issues related to smoking, you shouldn't have a job that requires you to meet people in their homes. It's like the old joke: "Doctor, my arm hurts when I do this!" "Well then stop doing that".

Nobody forced to you to be a signing agent, it was completely your choice. To ask and expect others to change their behavior in their own home to accommodate you is much more rude than their smoking in your presence is. You're not there as a guest.

Reply by TRG_wy on 4/18/08 10:37pm
Msg #244080

I think I have to agree here.

Smokers are very defensive these days because everyone is on their backs about it. Frankly they are tired of hearing about it; let alone in their own home. Believe it or not, they do have rights too. We are there to accominidate them not the other way way around. Try doing a closing out in the middle of an oil field or a methane field. I inhale more pollution following a city bus or desil (sp) truck.

Reply by CaliNotary on 4/18/08 10:51pm
Msg #244084

"I inhale more pollution following a city bus or desil (sp) truck."

Exactly. If you can walk through an enclosed parking garage breathing in the trapped exhaust of hundreds of cars and not worry about your health, you can breathe in the occasional secondhand smoke and not worry about your health.

Reply by JK/TX on 4/18/08 10:54pm
Msg #244085

I'm in agreement w/Calinotary and TRG. It's tiring to hear people whine about smokers and the smoke and "claim" to have allergies when in many cases, they just don't want to smell the smoke (I'm speaking in general).

I don't want to be in a room w/several people smoking but I would not expect them to treat me as someone special while I'm in their home...... if I did, then I'd ask for some 100 watt light bulbs and an AC turned down a degree or two....

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/19/08 12:55pm
Msg #244141

Let's ban smoking across the USA...period...

even in homes....as long as is meringue laden pies with lard soaked pie crust, candy bars, chocolate cake, sugary soft drinks, and over-eating in general. Obese people should be put on diets and forced to comply if smoking is banned. Sugar is a killer. Obesity and diabetes kills people also.

People who indulge in those things are burdening the healthcare system with problems relating to obesity and that affects all of us. Paula Deen would no longer be able to have a cooking show!

Wine, beer and alcohol must also be cut out of America along with smoking. All addictions to drugs and/or alcohol must be eradicated.

I also say if smoking is banned across the board then so should be medical manufacturers, chemical manufacturers, cars, fabric mills, paper mills, laser printers and hairspray, most household cleaners as well as cologne, and damp mildew prone climates.

Robert/VA this isn't aimed at you. Just something to think about. Smoking and second hand smoke affects most people adversely (in my experience) whether by allergic reaction or by choice. The people you were dealing with were rude. However, it is a hazard of the job of being a signing agent. If it's that bad, just leave and don't collect your money...make sure every time you take a job you ask, "Do the borrowers smoke?" and see how your business goes.

It's rude and obnoxious for people to smoke with non-smokers present. That's a given, but it is currently their right in their home.

Reply by JK/TX on 4/19/08 1:42pm
Msg #244146

Re: Let's ban smoking across the USA..don't forget beef

"Experts" say cows are responsible for the biggest portion of the world's global warming.

"Experts" claim cow gases do 23 times more damage to our environment than car pollution. How does that compare to smoking (?)

OMG.....What do we do? Eat more beef and save the world?!

Reply by Elaine Sedlock on 4/19/08 1:52pm
Msg #244149

Re: Let's ban smoking across the USA..don't forget beef

That's funny JK/TX! My dad used to work for Eli Lillies (sp?) doing research when I was a little girl and I remember him telling about all the tax $$ being spent on studying the effect "cow farts" had on the environment!!! Maybe we should eat more beef! LOL!

Reply by CF on 4/19/08 8:33am
Msg #244111

Give me a break- CaliNotary- you can have all sorts of jobs....and still have allergies and other health conditions. When a person has allergies- they would have to live in a bubble to not come in contact with triggers in the world. That means they could not have a desk job, a retail job, a this or that job.

I am sure that this person has more than just allergies to smoke- that is typically how it works- I have numerous allergies.....and I don’t let it control my life!

You are straight- I am not their guest....I am there to perform a service and you better bet that I get some respect.....or they can find someone else to put up with their rude behaviors!!!!!!!!!!

When notaries stop putting themselves at the bottom of the chain.....then maybe other people in the business will too.

Reply by Julie/MI on 4/18/08 10:40pm
Msg #244081

I remember my dad smoking in the grocery store and I have heard stories of doctor's lighting their patient's cigarettes while in the hopsital.

Smoking was everywhere and as a former smoker, I never could tolorate someone else's smoke.

But, it's a hazard of the job and that's just the way it goes if you are in their home.

Reply by Maureen_nh on 4/18/08 11:19pm
Msg #244086

I have found that most borrowers are very considerate. I have had people ask me if i am allergic to cats, dogs whatever.
I am allergic to some candles and cleaning products. My nose fills up and I start coughing up a storm. It usually calms down after a few nose blowings.
So what am I supposed to do? Tell people I am allergic to their house?
I do smoke and when clients start leaving the room for a minute I do tell them that and that I don't mind them smoking.
In this day and age, smokers have few places to indulge their habit except at home.
I do think you ran into an extreme situation. Perhaps if this is a life threating matter for you , you could ask the borrowers if they smoked when you made your confirmation call and if the answer was yes ask the SS ect to reassign the order.

Reply by A-1 Signing Agents, LLC on 4/19/08 6:01am
Msg #244103

As a smoker

Oddly enough, I can't stand to be around other smokers. I am one of the odd smokers. If anyone comes to my home for any appointment, I wouldn't think about lighting up. Just that way about the nasty habit. Even if it is my home, I do know what an offensive habit it is and don't expect other's to accept it. I dont' have a single smoking friend as well. Non of my sisters smoke and if they come over, I never light up. I know how much they hate it and it has never bothered me to go a few hours without one. I personally would never have any problem with someone asking me not to smoke. I think the non smokers actually "DO" have a right to ask not to be stunk up and exposed to a smoker lighting up. Just as we have rights, so do they. Just another view from a smoker.

Reply by LKT/CA on 4/18/08 11:31pm
Msg #244087

While I sympathize with you...I am very sensitive to cigarette smoke too...I'd be grateful it wasn't a filthy house, infested with vermin. A news story a few weeks ago showed a house so filthy that the house had to be gutted. What if you had to go to one of those homes? Yikes!

Reply by CF on 4/19/08 8:34am
Msg #244112

Why would you go in?

Reply by Sharon Taylor on 4/18/08 11:46pm
Msg #244089

Some are truly allergic; borrowers are usually nice about

not smoking while you are there if you politely explain that you are allergic. If they don't ask, then speak up!!!! I have a lawyer friend who definitely is allergic - he says it is like instantly coming down with a cold and having it linger on and on if he is around cigarette smoke. Believe me, he is definitely firm and vocal on the subject, letting clients know immediately that they can smoke anywhere they want except around him and in his office.
I do not smoke, never have, but my parents and grandfather (who lived with us) smoked heavily when I was growing up, my son smokes, my husband smokes. I wish they didn't. Sigh. Luckily I am not allergic.
When I have gone to a home with smoking borrowers, they almost always ask if I mind if they light up while I'm there.

Reply by SReis on 4/18/08 11:48pm
Msg #244090

Whenever I am asked I tell them I don't mind even though I HATE it. However, I feel like it is their home & we are mtg their FOR THEIR CONVENIENCE not ours.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 4/19/08 12:27am
Msg #244095

I don't know if it's a So Cal kind of thing, but I almost never run into that problem, thank goodness! However, on occasion I can be very sensitive to cigarette smoke. One thing I hate is being in an elevator with someone who just came back from a cigarette break. If it doesn't bother you, I can understand believing that it's something we should just deal with, but sometimes it can feel like the air is being sucked out of your lungs and you can hardly breathe.

When I'm setting up an appointment, the last thing I'm thinking about is whether or not the borrowers smoke. I'm not there for my own entertainment or to pass the time, I'm there to help them with a transaction that's important to them. I'd put up with it, if it wasn't bothering me, for as long as I could, but if I started coughing and losing my voice, I'd certainly say something.

I've only had to do that once. The borrowers were BOTH smoking cigars! I finally apologized profusely [which they probably should have been doing...], but advised them that I was sensitive to cigar smoke (which was pretty obvious, since my eyes were watering and I could hardly talk!) I asked if they would mind if we finished the docs before they finished their cigars, and they were happy to oblige -- or at least they pretended to be. I think offering to take it all outside is another possibility. They should get the message.

There is abundant medical evidence now that breathing in second-hand smoke is very unhealthy, even worse than inhaling directly, since they are usually doing so through a filter. I've never smoked myself, but is it that difficult to not have a cigarette for one hour? I find most people very polite and considerate about me coming into their home, nearly always offering something to drink -- and more. They appreciate the convenience. While I agree that people should have the right to do what they want in their own homes, I think it's just common courtesy to to be considerate of someone who is a guest in their home. To completely disregard the welfare or comfort of someone else who is just there to help them is just plain rude, imho. And I clearly disagree that if we can't take the smoke, we should get out of the business -- unless it's a common job hazard in your area and makes it difficult to do the job. That's a decision we all make every day about all aspects of this work.

Reply by CaliNotary on 4/19/08 1:01am
Msg #244098

"There is abundant medical evidence now that breathing in second-hand smoke is very unhealthy, even worse than inhaling directly, since they are usually doing so through a filter."

Sorry, but that is ridiculous. When you inhale a cigarette, all of the smoke goes directly into your lungs. Secondhand smoke is dissipated in the air and whoever breathes it in is getting a fraction of what a smoker is getting.

"I think it's just common courtesy to to be considerate of someone who is a guest in their home."

It certainly is. But we're not in their home as guests, we're there doing a job.

"To completely disregard the welfare or comfort of someone else who is just there to help them is just plain rude, imho."

No, what is rude is expecting people to bow to your whims when you're in THEIR house. These days there are fewer and fewer places that people can smoke, who are you to go into one of the few remaining places that they can smoke and tell them not to? Nobody is forcing you to be there, if you truly feel it's a health issue than just leave. If you're willing to stay just to make a few bucks than you obviously don't think it's that bad for you or you wouldn't do it.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 4/19/08 6:16am
Msg #244104

JanetK_CA - I lived in CA all my life before moving to VA in 2000. When I got here to VA it was like going back in time 10 - 20 years. In CA, people are embarrassed to let anyone know that they are a smoker, and most Californians don't smoke. Here, it's quite prevalent. Restaurants here still have the smoking and non-smoking sections, with the invisible line in-between. In CA, you can't smoke in restaurants or offices at all.

Reply by christiSocal on 4/19/08 12:33am
Msg #244096

On the flip side

I had a signing a few weeks ago and everyone keep checking with me to make sure I didn't smoke. Mrs borrower has a lung disease and is VERY sensitive. They had refied a different property awhile ago and that notary had just finished a smoke before going in, doused herself with cologne and nearly killed the Mrs!
Poor lady started coughing and wheezing half way thru our signing because, get this, the smell of the docs was affecting her!
Anyway, all that to say, maybe smoking notaries should air out a little before going in...

Reply by Cari on 4/19/08 8:14am
Msg #244106

CaliNotary you are wrong...

Whether or not you are going to someone's house to visit or do your notary job, YOU are a GUEST in that person's house. What else are you considered to be?

And, it is extremely rude for the BO, NOT to ask if you are okay with them smoking, cats, dogs, etc. In fact, it is common courtesy & good etiquette to ask guests. I've never met a BO that didn't ask. In fact, never met a BO yet that didn't regard my comfort as a concern while in their home.

NO JOB is worth putting your health at risk. And just as an FYI...below are facts regarding secondhand smoke:

This info is taken from the American Lung Association:

"Secondhand smoke, also known as environmental tobacco smoke (ETS), is a mixture of the smoke given off by the burning end of a cigarette, pipe or cigar and the smoke exhaled from the lungs of smokers. It is involuntarily inhaled by nonsmokers, lingers in the air hours after cigarettes have been extinguished and can cause or exacerbate a wide range of adverse health effects, including cancer, respiratory infections, and asthma.1

Secondhand smoke has been classified by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) as a known cause of cancer in humans (Group A carcinogen).2

Secondhand smoke exposure causes disease and premature death in children and adults who do not smoke. Secondhand smoke contains hundreds of chemicals known to be toxic or carcinogenic, including formaldehyde, benzene, vinyl chloride, arsenic ammonia and hydrogen cyanide.3

Second hand smoke causes approximately 3,400 lung cancer deaths and 46,000 heart disease deaths in adult nonsmokers in the United States each year.4

Nonsmokers exposed to secondhand smoke at work are at increased risk for adverse health effects. Levels of ETS in restaurants and bars were found to be 2 to 5 times higher than in residences with smokers and 2 to 6 times higher than in office workplaces."5

Sources:

1. California Environmental Protection Agency. Identification of Environmental Tobacco Smoke as a Toxic Air Contaminant. Executive Summary. June 2005.

2. Ibid.

3. The Health Consequences of Involuntary Exposure to Tobacco Smoke: 6 Major Conclusions of the Surgeon General Report. A Report of the Surgeon General, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, 2006; Available at: http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/secondhandsmoke/factsheets/factsheet6.html: Accessed on 7/7/06

4. California Environmental Protection Agency. Identification of Environmental Tobacco Smoke as a Toxic Air Contaminant. Executive Summary. June 2005.

5. U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. Report on Carcinogens, Tenth Edition 2002. National Toxicology Program.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 4/19/08 8:21am
Msg #244108

Re: CaliNotary you are wrong...

My mother had emphysema and she never smoked a day in her life. But she was around my father who smoked daily. Second hand smoke can cause all the smoke related diseases to a non smoker.

Funny, I was on base on Thursday and was sitting outside the BX waiting for my husband to bring the SUV around, a lady sat down on the bench next to me and actually asked if I minded if she smoked.

Reply by Linda Juenger on 4/19/08 8:27am
Msg #244110

Jan1, 08 IL banned smoking in ALL public places

and 15 feet outside the door.

Reply by CF on 4/19/08 8:40am
Msg #244114

I dont give a rats a$$ about what people think:

I am there to perform a service and if I can be respected enough to not be smoked on.....then screw them!

You people are crazy.....to not speak up and act like this is their house....and blah blah blah- no wonder we are all walked on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is like saying I am in their house: I cant ask them to sign the papers- that is asking them to do something in their house- I am just the notary- I cant ask them to do anything.

WHATEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reply by SueW/Tn on 4/19/08 12:27pm
Msg #244136

Re: I dont give a rats a$$ about what people think:

My gosh, what an attitude you've got. But that's just my opinion and hey...here's another one: Yep, you're in my home to perform a service. It's a service I'M PAYING FOR. You don't show up for free or volunteer your time. My cold cash pays your rate and that being said, I'm going to do whatever I want in my own home within reason and if it bothers you? Just pass me on to someone else because I won't give a rats a$$ about what you think.

Reply by CaliNotary on 4/19/08 8:42pm
Msg #244173

Re: I dont give a rats a$$ about what people think:

"You people are crazy.....to not speak up and act like this is their house"

Ummm, sweetie, we're not ACTING like it's their house, it IS their house.

The smoker has a right to smoke in their house, period. You have the right to choose not to be around smokers. You even have the right to POLITELY ask them not to smoke in their presence. Most will probably not have a problem with doing that.

But if they aren't willing to do that, too bad so sad for you, their house, their rules. Then you get to decide whether to stay or go and too bad so sad for them if you choose to leave. The consequence for them is that their loan doesn't get signed, the consequence for you is that you likely won't get paid and could lose future business from the company that sent you out.

See how choice works?

Reply by TRG_wy on 4/19/08 8:38am
Msg #244113

Re: CaliNotary you are wrong...

Statistics and studies are always there for any side of an issue. No matter who compiles them. If the ALA or the EPA had spent the millions of dollars to study ordinary everyday air pollution such as pollin or smog effects on joggers, walkers, bicyclists, drivers e.t.c as they have on smokers then we all would be living in a bubble.

Yes smoke, either directly or via second-hand can produce risks; just as can everything else we inhale. I am with Al Gore here and just blame all ills on Global Warming effects.

Reply by Carolyn Bodley on 4/19/08 8:48am
Msg #244115

Re: No, Cari YOU ae wrong...

You can cite statistics all you want, but it is their house, and you or anyone else doesn't have any right or authority to tell someone what they can and can't do in THIER own house.

Colorado has been a non-smoking state for a number of years. I'm a non-smoker, but what someone does in their own home is their business! If someone comes into my house and begins telling me what I can't do in their presence, they will be out the door.

Reply by MW/VA on 4/19/08 8:57am
Msg #244116

Re: No, Cari YOU ae wrong...

I'm not going to get into a heated debate about smoking. I am a smoker & am tired of all the
political & public sensitivity. Regardless of that, manners are manners. If you are at a signing & have a problem with them smoking, speak up!!!! I'm sure you can come up with a non-attacking way to ask them to refrain from smoking during the signing. Somehow, we seem to tolerate cell-phone use more than smoking these days--which can be just as offensive.
In this business, there is a lot we have to tolerate: messy houses, odors, pets, kids, etc.
It's life--if you can't deal with it get out of the business!

Reply by janCA on 4/19/08 9:49am
Msg #244118

To all those who smoke out there

Just something I have to say. Have you ever watched someone you love dying from emphazema (sp) and COPD. It is heartbreaking to say the least. That is what's happening with my father, and his quality of life has become total crap. He smoked for over 50 yrs. and regrets ever doing so. Yes, I believe smokers do have certain rights, but with all the information there is about the harmful effects of smoking and what it does to one's body, I just don't get it. This is a horrible thing to watch and not be able to do a da%# about.

Reply by Carolyn Bodley on 4/19/08 11:45am
Msg #244133

Re: To all those who smoke out there

My Dad had lung cancer. I still stand firm that it is peoples own right to do what they want in their own houses!!

Reply by Sir_Lawrence on 4/19/08 10:12pm
Msg #244177

Re: To all those who smoke out there

So they can sign naked and drunk as well? No one is demanding they not smoke, JUST ASKING. Go have a smoke Carolyn, please.

Reply by CaliNotary on 4/19/08 10:41pm
Msg #244180

Re: To all those who smoke out there

"So they can sign naked and drunk as well?"

If they want to be naked and drunk in their house then yeah, they can be. And then you can turn around and leave when you're greeted at the door by a pair of 60 year old breasts flapping in the wind. It's their house, they can do what they want. Doesn't mean you have to stick around to watch it.

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/20/08 7:13am
Msg #244186

"Sir" Lawrence - Carolyn does not smoke.

Your snarky post to Carolyn belies the polite name you have tagged yourself with.

Reply by Sir_Lawrence on 4/20/08 7:28am
Msg #244189

Re: "Sir" Lawrence - Carolyn does not smoke.

I was tagged with Sir Lawrence years ago by guitar player John Knapp of RI, I'm also a professional musician. You are correct dear. I let myself go too far and I should have known better. Two wrongs never make a right. To Ms Carolyn I offer my humble apologies.

Reply by Carolyn Bodley on 4/20/08 8:51am
Msg #244199

Re: Funny you should ask

*So they can sign naked and drunk as well?*

Yes, I have had one signing where the man wore nothing but his loosly belted robe while his wife was wearing a short frilly number. Go back a couple years of postings and you will see that Brenda even assisted one borrower into her night clothes, if I remember.

As for drinking alcohol or being drunk, absolutely not and I wouldn't even begin the signing because both would have an affect on the person *knowing* and *understanding* what they were signing.

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/20/08 12:02pm
Msg #244210

Re: Funny you should ask

**Go back a couple years of postings and you will see that Brenda even assisted one borrower into her night clothes, if I remember.**

Yep, night clothes, old fellas with baggy short shorts and no undies...helped a lady get ready for bed and switch her oxygen tank when her tank was low on fuel and she needed her blouse unbuttoned in back (she'd gotten all dressed up for her appointment)...you name it and signing agents over the years have done it.

However, unlike Charming, I have never had a porn movie in the background although I did knock on a door once when there was a porn movie going in the bedroom (I'm pretty sure) and it took them awhile to get it shut off and presentable.

I will have to say, however, smokers in Texas have been extremely nice about not smoking when I've been present.

One poor fellow once though who was nervous -- I told him to smoke because he was so wrought up that I thought things would go better if he could. I could see his cigs over by his chair and he was having trouble not smoking. It relaxed him and we got done a lot quicker.

Reply by William Adams on 4/19/08 10:34am
Msg #244126

Re: No, Cari YOU ae wrong...

I feel that we are way off base on this issue, Point 1, I am in the borrowers home as a service and coveniance to them to complete a very serious and expensive transaction for there purpose. Point 2, I as a notary am paid buy the lender (ss/title co) to guide them through the signing of the loan documents and to sent those documents to the title co in good physical shape and signed correctly. That is the number 1 purpose that I am there for. I am suppose to be in charge of the meeting and have borrower sign all papers that need to be signed which means I set the rules for the signing. First, There can not be any beverage of any type on the table where we are signing papers. The table must be clean of any food and must not have any sticky spots. If there is a table cloth on the table it either must be removed from the signing area or I carry extra file folders that they can put under the papers they are signing on so the point of the pen does not damage the document, Last there is no smoking at the signing table if they need a break to smoke during the signing I will wait for them to do so, but not at the signing table. I explain these rules this way. We are doing a professional meeting here you have waited and endured this long process and now we have the chance for it all to come to a conclusion. I would not want this process to continue for you any longer because one of us by accident spill, smudge, or burn any of the documents and they are not accepted and we have to resign and it takes another week and possibly costs you more money. It really does not have anything to do with me personally it is all about doing what we are being paid to do correctly in sometimes difficult conditions. I have put these rules out hundreds of times and not a one person disagreed with me and not complied. Folks lets face it it makes no difference where the signing is taking place we are sent there to run the process there can be only one leader or there will be mass confusion. I have done sinings in restaurants at borrowers request I tell them when the appointment is made they must order food or beverage after the documents are signed without exception,When we get to the restaurant (I am always early) I ask for a table in the non smoking section and tell the waitress we are going to have a meeting and will be signing papers and that we will order when we are finished with the meeting and I will let her know. Then I give the waitress a tip and wait for the borrowers. There is nothing wrong with taking charge to do your job correctly and you must always explain what the rules are and why you have them and then they will comply.

Reply by Carolyn Bodley on 4/19/08 5:28pm
Msg #244160

Re: Yeah, right ...

William Adams said **First, There can not be any beverage of any type on the table where we are signing papers. The table must be clean of any food and must not have any sticky spots. If there is a table cloth on the table it either must be removed from the signing area or I carry extra file folders that they can put under the papers they are signing on so the point of the pen does not damage the document**

Isn't this a chapter out of a fairy tale?

Reply by William Adams on 4/20/08 12:20am
Msg #244181

Re: Yeah, right ...

No, it is not a chapter out of some fairy tale, It is a chapter on how to be a professional in the process of doing a loan signing. I have conducted over 1000 signings and you could not get 2 people to say that they weren't done in a prfessional manner and a positive tone. We are sent to the borrowers home to run the signing. I mentioned before what the rules are in my first post today. these rules are only suggested if they need to be. I do not order them to do anything I suggest that we conduct the signing in a clear accident free setting. If they want to put a cup of coffee, a glass of water or whatever near the signing area I simply sugest that it be removed cause the potential of it spilling,or the glass sweating and papers getting ruined. I tell them it happened to me long time ago and I always suggest that the liquid be removed from the table. The borrower always comply and say that is a good idea. On more than a few occasions I suggest that we wipe the table down where I noticed a stiky spot. Borrower always will comply,Table clothes present a problem where they are not rigid enough to keep the pen point from going through the document and make it usless. So I suggest removing the table cloth or I give them extra file folders I carry for this purpose to put under document to save the document and get a good signiture. I also suggest they use the file folder to save the table top from any damage since many are made of soft wood which could show marks. I do not smoke, I would not say the borrower they can not smoke, only they not smoke at the signing table. Again cause I had a borrower a couple years ago set a stack of signed papers on fire by an errant cigarette, and as I am trying to get them into the sink to pour water on them to dipell the fire I received minor burns on my hands and forarms from that accident. An intelligent person learn from there mistakes or the mistakes of others. It was mentioned in one of the other post about having a beer during the signing. Definately not, the borrower must be coherant and understand what he is signing. on a couple occasions where a borrower wanted to drink an alcohalic beverage while signing the documents I always suggest we only do one or the other, He can drink his beer or we can sign the documents, BUT WE CAN'T DO BOTH I would not want you to sign anything you didn't understand cause you were feeling the effects of the beer you are drinking plus you could accidentally spill it on the documents. I believe a lot of you out there must think that the borrowers expect a weak unprepaired person to come into there home and do a unprofessional signing. What they are really looking for is a person who shows a professional manner and sets the rules to be followed,and guides them professionally through the process, Yes professionals do follow consistant rules, consistancy brings cofidence in what you do and the more confidece you show the borrower the more respect the borrower has for this professioal person they have in there home guiding them through a hectic project they must complete. In the end they really do appreciate that a professional was sent to help them and they look better at the loan officer who sent them someone who is professional and knowledgeable about the process. I take pride in being a Professional Notary Signing Agent. I get a lot of compliments and quite a few "stop by when your in the area" remarks. I don't write fairy tales but maybe I should write "taking charge while being a professional all with a smile on your face". I have no problems with borrowers, the problems come from the ones not doing their job ahead of me so I can't do mine.

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/20/08 7:02am
Msg #244185

In response to William Adams

Borrowers generally offer me a drink when I am in their home. I politely decline and say that I prefer not to drink because I could turn my glass over and spill it. "If you spill, that's one thing, but if I do that's quite another. (Smile.)" Then it's their decision whether or not to risk it. They usually make the correct choice...and if they don't... that's their decision. No one has ever poured a drink out on the documents yet.

Something is very off about this "be polite to me" thing and the function we serve while in others' homes.

IMHO we aren't "guests" in their home. We are workers. Just like plumbers, carpenters, maid services, and so forth. We are there to do a job. If we don't like the work environment we have the freedom of choice to leave. We are independent contractors, not employees.

And, while we *may* be there for their convenience, I'd say a large percentage (if not the majority) of my borrowers wanted to sign their documents in a local title company...only they didn't realize that the "chain" lender (who has an office in their town) was refinancing their loan from a call center a thousand miles away (not the local brick and mortar building) and therefore the "chain" lender used a far-away national title company equally as distant from their homes. The borrower didn't know that they had a choice to use a local title company so, they are "stuck" with the national title company AND me "intruding" into their home.

The XYZ and similar organizations who promote the SA biz as providing a "convenience" appointment for borrowers are not representing the *total and complete truth* of what we do.

SA appointments were established for the *convenience* of lenders and title companies across the US...not the borrowers. (But it sure did sound good to use that as a selling point.) For the most part, SAs make it possible for lenders and title companies outside of your own home town to provide loans and services to those within your area. Before that, in Texas, borrowers happily made their way to local title companies to sign their loan documents.

Texas borrowers are often disappointed that they must open their homes to complete strangers carrying documents with their personal financial information to them rather than going to a brick and mortar office. So see...to those of you who think that we( notaries) are always "guests" in homes, this isn't always the case. Our presence is often instrusive. IMHO, you are being confused and short-sighted to consider yourself a "guest" and while your opinion may be drawn from your own experiences... you are not taking into consideration that your experiences as an SA are not absolute and all inclusive.

I speak from a Texas perspective and do not expect my views and opinions to represent the entire USA.

ps--
Should smokers not smoke while non-smokers are present? Absolutely not. But do notaries have a "right" to tell people what they can do in their own home? Not in my opinion. No, we should not. We are independent and we can leave when we don't like the circumstances. As you said yourself, "BUT WE CAN'T DO BOTH" and that's when we leave if things aren't to our liking.

Reply by SueW/Tn on 4/20/08 10:50am
Msg #244207

Perfectly stated Bren! n/m

Reply by CaliNotary on 4/20/08 11:45am
Msg #244208

Re: Yeah, right ...

"I take pride in being a Professional Notary Signing Agent."

Too bad you don't take the same pride in your writing. Nobody ever taught you about paragraphs in elementary school?

Reply by William Adams on 4/20/08 12:03pm
Msg #244211

Re: Yeah, right ...

So Sorry.

Reply by Carolyn Bodley on 4/21/08 8:42am
Msg #244242

Re: Putting smoking aside ...

I would say that VERY FEW of the homes where I conduct signings are photo ops from Home Beautiful. Don't get me wrong, the homes are not run-down dumps in poor neighborhoods -- far from it, in fact. The homes belong to working people with active families. Most have children, and the parents are being pulled in all directions with taking one child here, one there, another in still another direction. What little time they have in their hectic lives for personal business, i.e., signing loan docs, are precious -- so I'm certianly not going to insist that someone wipe down the table for fear there is a sticky spot, nor make them remove a table cloth, nor tell them that food and beverage are not allowed anywhere near the documents. Heaven forbid if a paper gets stuck to some sticky substance, or a water glass should sweat on the paper, or the point of the pen goes through the paper, or even if a cigarette should catch a paper on fire -- you have another complete set of loan documents right there in your bag of tricks to switch out if the worst should happen. The world isn't going to come to an end.

I have conducted signings with dogs in my lap or sleeping on my feet, I have conducted signings where I've held the baby, I've conducted signings sitting Indian style on the floor, I've conducted signings on the couch where my knees practically touched my chin, I have conducted signings sitting outside on the front steps, I have conducted signings in the front seat of a vehicle, I have conducted signings on the trunk of a car ... I have conducted signings in every imaginable and unimaginable place you can think of ... the point of all of this is that you claim to be a PROFESSIONAL, however, a TRUE professional rolls with the punches and is able to carry out a signing whenever, however, and wherever necessary without a bunch of rules. And just for the record, people can sign documents in a restaurant WHILE EATING and not one single page was damaged with with either food, beverage or even wrinkled.

I could actually care less with what I'm faced with once inside the house -- I'd just be happy if the BOs turn on their porch lights, have visible address numbers, shovel their walks and drives of snow and ice and cut the unruly rose bushes so as I don't get caught up in them.

Reply by SueW/Tn on 4/21/08 9:41am
Msg #244253

Good post Carolyn, does this mean you don't call ahead

to let the BO's know you want them to cease smoking and air the house out before you get there? Unreal....

Reply by Carolyn Bodley on 4/21/08 9:54am
Msg #244254

Re: Good post Carolyn, does this mean you don't call ahead

Unreal for sure. That was my whole fairy tale point earlier.

Reply by Cari on 4/19/08 6:31pm
Msg #244164

Some of you, Carolyn, are missing the point....

"... but it is their house, and you or anyone else doesn't have any right or authority to tell someone what they can and can't do in THIER own house"

DUH...I am NOT trying to TELL or DEMAND ANYONE what to do in their home, that is nuts. As I would feel the same as most, in that if someone came into my home and started TELLING or BARKING ORDERS at me, of course they'd be out the door in a heartbeat on their @ss.

I believe it's a matter of etiquette. When one is in someone else's home, invited of course, one is a guest. If the guest politely and kindly asks the homeowner to refrain from smoking because it's a danger to the guest, then I believe the host should oblige and conform with the request.

Is this request boldly DEMANDING or TELLING them what to do in their own home? No.

Is it going to totally inconvenience them, even for a short period of time, maybe - maybe not depends on how they take your request or how they feel about it.

I do not believe that asking anyone from smoking, due to health reasons, is offensive. It is a request. And most BO would understand and comply. For those BO who would have a problem with this simple request, well, I guess it would be my loss for as I have said before in my earlier post, no job is worth the risk of your health, and I'd be outta there in a minute.

We can all go back and forth on this subject, as I suspect this subject will, but I've said my peace, and I'm out - PEACE OUT FELLOW HOMIES...

Reply by Charm_AL on 4/19/08 10:34am
Msg #244125

Ive read....

most of this topic...and saw it escalate. I miss this place lol...

My 2 cents.
My Aunt and Uncle from Tampa and my cousin from Hawaii are all going to be in Huntsville tomorrow, my cousin for business, my relatives to see him along with the extra benefit of having moi here

My Aunt is extremely allergic to cats, I have two. They are outside cats and reside in the garage which is heated so don't kill me.
I am scrubbing down my home and taking extra care with my usual deepclean Saturdays. I am doing this out of love and respect.
When a guest or friend comes over they don't need to worry because my home is smoke free, if my husband or I friends chose to smoke, it is outdoors, for the health of my children and the benefits of not having the dingy walls and smelly drapes, etc....

When I go to a borrower's home to conduct business I am prepared (for being seasoned) BTW: I'm renewing my commission, (I consider that a graduation and am working toward a busy and productive summer, yayyy to me)

I am prepared to encounter anything from A-Z
I can list a blog on it and I know you seasoned one's have seen it all as well. The dog that scared me so bad, the cell phone that never works when I'm lost atop a mountain, to the guy in a white tank tee shirt with one bulb hanging over a card table in a trailer on a mountain in nowhere's ville...that said "Ya ain't from around er are ya?"
The dog that ran my nylons because his owner paid NO attention to him, the dog that tried to eat my tires while the other 5 (chained) looked on.
The kid that played on top of the dining room table during a signing.
The couch that was ripped up and the smell and the board I placed on my lap to sign on....GOd I wished I'd had a gas mask on more than half a dozen occasions for twicw as many different smells.
Smoking happened during a signing maybe 3 times since I have been in this business.
The porno on the big screen in another room.
The countless hits, flirts, etc....

In my opinion it's all about class and the way you were brought up. If any of these things I mentioned were the worse, it would not be the smoking.

As cali mentioned....when you accept a job you accept the baggage.
ANYway, did I tell ya I'm renewing my commision? LOL

Reply by Elaine Sedlock on 4/19/08 11:12am
Msg #244128

Re: Ive read....

Both sides of this debate have valid points. As a smoker I'm always concerned about the people who come to my home (on business or otherwise) and would take measures to ensure their comfort. However, if I go to someone else's home I don't expect them to change their life-style even temporarily for my benefit especially if I'm there to conduct business. I don't have allergies to anything that I know of either so I may not "get it." That said, I believe when you accept a job, ANY job, you accept that you will be exposed to various objectionable factors. There is an elementary school in our county that has a rule banning use of any scented products. No student, faculty, or even GUEST, is permitted to wear cologne, scented deoderant, ect. . . because one of the administrators is allergic. In my opinion this is just flat WRONG!!! Why should the masses cater to the one? I was sent to the school on a newspaper assignment and didn't know of this rule. When I got there I was in a hurry working on deadline and was told at the office that I would have to leave and come back "odorless" (so to speak)! I didn't have time to do that since by the time I could have returned home, showered, changed clothes (all my laundry is washed in scented detergent anyway) and gotten back to the school the event I was to cover would have been over! Bottom line? The story never got written; students and their teacher missed out on the recognition they deserved for what they were doing (some charity thing), and I had wasted time and energy preparing interview questions and driving there when I had a ton of other assignments I could've been working on! This is just not right and I think that administrator should be given the choice between resigning or wearing scuba gear! JMO

Reply by Carolyn Bodley on 4/19/08 11:49am
Msg #244134

Re: Ive read....

I would much rather come home smelling of smoke, than the fleas I brought home from one signing !!!

Reply by snoopdogMs on 4/19/08 7:01pm
Msg #244165

Few and far between

Thank goodness these smoking closings only occur every once in a blue moon. Brenda's comment that they are rude and obnoxious may only be partially true as I think that most that fit in that category are probably unlearned and ignorant (uninformed) because of their upbringing. If smoking is a part of growing up with many relatives and friends together,some of those folks are oblivious of non smokers' aversion to smoke. Not everyone grows up under Ms. Manners laws of gracious hosting. Some would say if you can't take the heat then get out of the kitchen. All kitchens have heat. Life has heat. You can't run from heat. A true cook knows that heat can work for or against the final product. I see no reason why that one cannot entreaty the homeowner to abstain during the closing. If you are gifted with tact, the borrower probably would not be offended. If the answer is no, just do the job. That's life.

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/19/08 7:27pm
Msg #244166

I stand corrected.

**Brenda's comment that they are rude and obnoxious may only be partially true .... If smoking is a part of growing up with many relatives and friends together,some of those folks are oblivious of non smokers' aversion to smoke.**

Snoop, That is very sensitive of you to say.

I'm going to give you that one.

After pondering this comment I have come around to agree with you. You are right. I was wrong to say it was patently rude and obnoxious. However, it is pretty hard in this day and time not to recognize that smoking is a problem to many people. But I do recognize that there are still pockets of American culture and social circles that don't "get it" due to their own raising and family/social conditioning.

Bottom line...it is their home and they have a right to do things inside their home that the rest of us might find wholly offensive (aside from breaking the law, of course).

When you choose a line of work where working inside of another's home is common you choose to deal with the habits of the dwellers.

Reply by OR on 4/19/08 7:35pm
Msg #244167

Re: I say if they want it the want to pay all....

those tax's I guess that is ok by me. They are almost $5.00 a pack here in Oregon how do people afford to buy cigeretts. I think it is money going up in smoke, and my husbsnd smokes. I have never had smoke around me while we were signing they all go out side and smoke even my husband. I guess if it bothered me so much I woudl ask before I took a signing. I dont care who smokes. We all do a lot of things that inpact our lives and the lives of others even while we are eating bathing and sleeping. It sounds a lot like I can impact your but I wont allow you to impact mine. Just my 2 cents

Reply by Sir_Lawrence on 4/19/08 9:16pm
Msg #244174

Re: I say if they want it the want to pay all....

I guess I'm a dying breed, but when someone comes into my home, I go out of my way to make them feel comfortable. I wouldn't play loud music, or smoke (if I did) or anything that would make that guest uncomfortable. I guess I was raised differently, and I'm glad I was. Smoke, eat fatty foods, treat your guests like you dont give a damn. This is America, do as you please as I will. So I guess farting and belching and having a beer at a signing is OK also. If you all don't mind, I will continue to care about other people around me, like my parents taught me. Shame on them. I'm very sorry I ever began reading this thread, I have lost respect for many.

Reply by LKT/CA on 4/19/08 10:19pm
Msg #244178

5 Star Post, Sir Lawrence !!

I share your sentiments.

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/20/08 6:25am
Msg #244183

Lost respect for many?

**I'm very sorry I ever began reading this thread, I have lost respect for many.**

So you've lost respect for people here because they have opinions which do not mirror your own? IMHO that's pretty harsh.

Reply by Sir_Lawrence on 4/20/08 7:22am
Msg #244187

Re: Lost respect for many?

Read some of what was said. It's way more than opinion. There are ignorant statements and incorrect facts being stated. IMHO enough has been said on this and I also am entitled to my honest opinion. I'm sorry if that offends you.

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/20/08 7:40am
Msg #244192

Re: Lost respect for many?

**There are ignorant statements and incorrect facts being stated...I'm sorry if that offends you..,**

I wish you weren't through commenting because I would like for you to share what you mean by "the ignorant statements and incorrect facts".

You haven't offended me!

Reply by Sir_Lawrence on 4/20/08 8:01am
Msg #244193

Re: Lost respect for many?

Brenda doing so would just "name names" and this horse is truly dead. I read statements about second hand smoke not being a big deal and that is just wrong. How could anyone in this day and age, smoker or not, not know the effects of second hand smoke? No one was saying that a signing agent should demand what others do in their homes, but somehow that is exactly what it was being translated into. Agents are working, they are not guests, remember that one? ANYONE you welcome into your home is a guest don't you think? "Oh it's just the plumber, it's OK to.....whatever. It's seems to have gotten out of hand, even I said things I shouldn't have, I'm no better. How about those Yankees?

Reply by Mona/MD on 4/19/08 9:39pm
Msg #244175

You have been invited into their home and as a guest they should be polite enough to ask if you mind if they smoke. If they don't stand, up for yourself and tell them you are allergic to smoke and they will normally stop. If they don't then ask if the signing can be completed outdoors.

Reply by Cari on 4/20/08 6:58am
Msg #244184

Sir Lawrence, we must have the same parents! :) n/m

Reply by Sir_Lawrence on 4/20/08 7:33am
Msg #244190

Re: Sir Lawrence, we must have the same parents! :)

Mon frere!

Reply by snoopdogMs on 4/20/08 8:15am
Msg #244196

Spirit of debate

The forum is a place for experiences, ideas, information and debate. The essence or spirit of debate is not how one can browbeat one into submission to their ideas and opinions on sensitive topics, but rather to entreaty (which comes with more pleasing power) that results in the hearer being more apt to be led and not driven. The debate gavel of disapproval came down when you stated that you lost respect for some on this forum. The panel would judge that you crossed the line of the rules. Would that we all have a clear understanding of human behavior and how that our personalities and lifestyles are bent and shaped by many factors such as our upbringing. We don't chose the families we are born into.

Reply by Sir_Lawrence on 4/20/08 8:32am
Msg #244197

Re: Spirit of debate

Once again.....second hand smoke kills, sometime children. Saying "no it doesn't" is ignorant. I've watched loved ones die of this and I will not respect anyone who is stupid enough to make statements like that. I don't care where or from whom they came from. Have a nice Sunday.

Reply by JK/TX on 4/20/08 8:40am
Msg #244198

Talley Up

This is an interesting thread with a variety of post. I was curious about the overall consensus. It seems to be:

Those that think it is not up to us whether the borrowers smoke and you have a choice to complete your assignment or leave is 21.

Those that think they have the right to insist the borrower not smoke due to their dislike of cigarettes is 6.

There is one post that tells the person truly has a health issue.

I counted 5 post that did not directly give there opinion to the question and there is only one count per poster.

Everyone dislikes smoke, even the smokers.

[Cigarette smoke makes your eyes burn and it stinks and makes your clothes smell… so does a BBQ grill (except stinks?) so I did not count those post as allergies or a health issue. If all you have to do is bath and change clothes (which is what I read) then you just hate the smell of cigarette smoke (or it hates you). Or you have personal issues that created a hate for tobacco. Allergic reactions are serious issues (IMHO). I have nursed my child through them so I have experience with allergies.]

What I found to be really interesting (ok, I’m bored and waiting a movie) is that the 21 group goes from (left to right) WY over to OR down to CA over to CO thru TX,LA,TN,MS,AL and FL then jumps up to VA then jumps to MI and NH. Mostly border states.

The 6 group is, for the most part, northeastern states; VA, IL, MI. PA, OH and MD.

Reply by JK/TX on 4/20/08 8:51am
Msg #244200

Re: Talley Up

.... maybe I should have said northeasterly instead or northeast (?) or both....

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/20/08 8:53am
Msg #244202

Re: Talley Up - Very insightful, my friend!

Not sure what it says yet because I haven't analyzed closely what you have stated, however, time is short.

I need to go to church at the moment to hammer my friends in my SS class into submission over my beliefs and then back here to do likewise. (That was a joke! My SS class is primarily academics. Ideas and opinions are highly valued there. I am the only one in my circle without a degree, much less a graduate degree.)

=====
If everyone on this board thought and believed as I do I would have zero motivation to visit here or put my two cents worth in. I already *know* everything I think.

Reply by JK/TX on 4/20/08 9:02am
Msg #244203

Re: Talley Up - Very insightful, my friend!

<If everyone on this board thought and believed as I do I would have zero motivation to visit here ......>

Ditto .......... oops

Reply by Rachel/ORWA on 4/20/08 1:09pm
Msg #244216

Make it 22.

And I fit into your "profiling," I guess.

My own experience: I once had a borrower who chain-smoked through a very long signing (he talked the whole time, as well). When I went to send the package off, two days later (this was a weekend wait-for-confirmation-to-drop signing), it still reeked of smoke.

Reply by christiSocal on 4/20/08 5:56pm
Msg #244227

I'm switching from 1 of 5 to 23

I didn't give my opinion before, but here goes. I am not allergic so I don't have to worry about that but, I am an ex-smoker and do not like smelling the smoke. But I will continue a signing- smoking or not. I've only had 3 or 4 smoking signings. If it was really bothering me, I would politely ask, but not insist. Thats my 2 cents
BTW when I quit, a pack was 35cents! Quitting was one of the best money saver things I ever did!

Reply by CaliNotary on 4/20/08 11:56am
Msg #244209

Re: Spirit of debate

"Once again.....second hand smoke kills, sometime children. Saying "no it doesn't" is ignorant."

Saying secondhand smoke kills is the ignorant statement. For most people who suffer from the effects of smoking it usually takes decades of smoking before it gets to the point where it's fatal, and that's people who are directly inhaling a pack, or two packs, or three packs a day. People exposed to secondhand smoke are getting a minuscule fraction of what what smokers are putting in their lungs daily, especially these days when smoking is nowhere near as prevalent as it was 50 years ago.

Sure, there are exceptions where people have unusual health conditions that most don't have, but that's hardly exclusive to smoking. Some people can die from eating a single peanut too. But under normal circumstances the teensy amount of secondhand smoke that a nonsmoker in today's day and age inhales is completely harmless. You're breathing in worse stuff on a daily basis simply by virtue of living in the United States and you've somehow managed to survive. The human body's filtering system works extremely well.

Reply by Sir_Lawrence on 4/20/08 12:34pm
Msg #244214

Re: Spirit of debate

Calinotary, you are an idiot. A damn disgrace. I'm sorry I ever joined this. Goodbye idiot.

Reply by CaliNotary on 4/20/08 1:11pm
Msg #244218

Re: Spirit of debate

In other words, your hysteria can't counterbalance my logic so you're giving up.

Reply by JanetLA on 4/20/08 12:37pm
Msg #244215

Cali? Really? Are you serious? Where do you get your "facts"

I am speechless regarding your opinions. Where do you find factual information that everyday living in the US is worse? Please... prove me wrong, but I think you are seriously misguided and incorrect in this particular situation. Do you need statistics on secondhand smoke?

Reply by CaliNotary on 4/20/08 1:10pm
Msg #244217

Re: Cali? Really? Are you serious? Where do you get your "fa

It's called common sense.

Look at how many millions of cars are on the road every day. All blowing exhaust out of their tailpipes. How many planes are flying through the air every day. How many factories are belching smoke in the air. All of these things are going on around you 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

You REALLY think breathing all of that stuff in every time you walk out the door is less harmful to you than me smoking a cigarette in your presence?

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/20/08 1:47pm
Msg #244219

Re: Cali? Really? Are you serious? Where do you get your "fa

**You REALLY think breathing all of that stuff in every time you walk out the door is less harmful to you than me smoking a cigarette in your presence?**

Having been raised within spitting distance of one of the largest petrochemical complexes in the world I suffered for years with respiratory difficulty. Allergies to smoke, trees, flowers, pets, dust, mold, mildew, blah, blah, blah, blah. I didn't outgrow it. Nothing relieved it except cortisone treatments. In fact, I got worse every year. It was horrible to live with.

By chance I got away from that area and suddenly I am no longer violently allergic to the same smoke, trees, flowers, pets, dust, mold, mildew, etc. What changed? The pollution was removed. I enjoy life now like I never have. Damp climates without pollution factors do not make me ill like I experienced while having to inhale filthy air.

Prior to the move I thought it was poppycock that the air was not fit to breathe in that area. I figured my real problem was late summer/fall Ragweed pollen because when it bloomed was when I was the most ill. The chemical plants had me run down. The pollen simply pushed me over the edge.

Just because you cannot smell the pollution doesn't mean it isn't tearing down your natural defenses. I pray I never have to live in that area again. I get sick if I visit there for more than two nights. I just wish I would have "escaped" years earlier.

Reply by Cari on 4/20/08 5:26pm
Msg #244225

Getting BACK to Robert's original question....

Robert, if your health is at issue, as it was in this particular signing, my advice to you is to please say something next time, politely of course, not that you wouldn't be; from what you described, it seemed if you'd of been there for one more minute, it may have caused you to go to the ER...remember, no job is worth risking your health, especially if your health is at immediate risk.

Reply by Gerry_VT on 4/20/08 12:09pm
Msg #244212

Practical approach

Something that worked for me back when it was routine to smoke in office buildings: "Normally smoking doesn't bother me, but I think I'm coming down with a cold; the smoke is bothering me today." If it turns out I don't actually come down with a cold, well, that's just good luck, isn't it.

Reply by JanetLA on 4/20/08 6:50pm
Msg #244228

Still very certain that second-hand smoke is unhealthy,

along with other things in life. I stay away from fried food, saturated fats and I also exercise regularly. The environment is a passion of mine and I am a fan of green living. Having said that, just because the environment and the air quality outdoors is unhealthy does that make it acceptable to breathe the toxins that I can actually avoid? If it is outdoors, I would not mind as much but indoors is terrible. If you read my original post, I am not likely to ever mention to the borrower that I wish they would not smoke. I hate the smell and hate the health considerations but I am also a professional. IF they ask, I would certainly prefer that they did not smoke. It is rare that I have been in this situation in 10 years of the business so I am thankful. I have actually spent more time reading this particular subject than I spend worrying about it during signings. But to downplay the dangers of secondhand smoke just because there are other pollutants is not logical. Just because you cannot avoid some hazards is not logical. To say that air quality in a city is the same as secondhand smoke without valid data is not common sense. It is just talk and an uninformed opinion.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 4/21/08 3:35pm
Msg #244326

Re: Still very certain that second-hand smoke is unhealthy,

I pretty much agree with everything you said. I think the issue of air quality in a city vs second hand smoke is more of a commentary on how bad city air can be (although many experts say in-door pollution if often worse!) than diminishing the dangers of second-hand smoke!

Reply by Les_CO on 4/20/08 10:32pm
Msg #244232

I have read some of these posts, and bit my tongue. I’ve now had a couple of Mojitos so…

If you are not able to do your job and SERVE the public, go do something else! Remember these (dirty) smoking borrowers just paid your fee! You want a smoke free work environment, go get a job in a clean room.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 4/21/08 2:30am
Msg #244235

I have actually read this entire thread (to my amazement) and just now went back to re-read the initial post. He was talking about a situation where five people were smoking, two non-stop and he was having a physical reaction to it. Here's my final take on the issue, FWIW:

Yes, borrowers have a RIGHT to do whatever they want in their own homes. That doesn't mean that it isn't poor manners to be completely inconsiderate of another person in their home, for whatever reason.

It appears attitudes and practices vary by location -- as does the external air quality.

I'll concede that while second-hand smoke is extremely unhealthy, imo, a rare exposure in someone's home is probably not as harmful as continuous breathing of outside air if you live in a polluted area (like in a big city, near a highway, factory, etc.). But if on a given day someone is having a problem with it (e.g. allergies, getting over a cold), that second-hand smoke could be problematic for some people.

I don't think being sensitive to cigarette smoke should automatically exclude someone from being in this business. That's a decision each person has to make for themselves, depending on how often they run into it and how severely they react.

In an extreme situation, like that mentioned in the original post, I don't think it would be inappropriate to ASK a borrower if they would mind refraining from smoking until the signing was completed - or to take a break for their cigarettes. If they refuse, of course the notary would then have to decide to tough it out or walk out and give up their fee -- and take whatever consequences might result. To me this is just plain common sense and just part of risks of business, like everything else. And how you handle it makes all the difference.

Bottom line, I think it's a matter of courtesy and respect for other people, on both sides. If I'm in someone's home who doesn't have the courtesy to ask or to consider whether or not it bothers me, I'll tough it out for an hour - unless it's making it difficult for me to talk or breathe. I think it's just foolish to do otherwise. Same thing with politely suggesting that it might be a good idea to give the table - where their kids just finished making peanut butter and jelly sandwiches - a wipe before we set down their documents. If you come across like a drill sergeant, that's not going to go over big. But if the comment is delivered lightly, with a smile and a helpful attitude, most will be fine with it. (Better that, then to have documents sticking together!) If you're nice about it, most people understand.

BTW, I also make a point of not going into other people's homes wearing perfume or any fragrance that someone else might be sensitive to. Many times I've walked into homes to find that there was someone there who was on oxygen and had breathing difficulties, perhaps even a borrower. Like I said, it works both ways.

I also disagree with the comparison to what a person eats, etc. When it comes to food, what one person puts in their mouth does not affect anyone else's health, whereas cigarette smoke can and does. For those of you who have any doubts about that, here is a link to an article with comments from the US Surgeon General on the topic:

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/NWS/content/NWS_1_1x_Surgeon_General_No_Safe_Level_for_Secondhand_Smoke.asp

(You may have to do a cut-and-paste...)

Here's another link to the American Cancer Society's website with more information:

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/PED/content/PED_10_2X_Secondhand_Smoke-Clean_Indoor_Air.asp?sitearea=PED

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/21/08 5:48am
Msg #244236

Fragrances, Perfume and Cologne

**BTW, I also make a point of not going into other people's homes wearing perfume or any fragrance that someone else might be sensitive to.**

Avoiding the wearing of fragrances in work environments is very polite and considerate.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 4/21/08 3:45pm
Msg #244328

"If I'm in someone's home who doesn't have the courtesy to ask or to consider whether or not it bothers me, I'll tough it out for an hour - unless it's making it difficult for me to talk or breathe. I think it's just foolish to do otherwise."

What I meant was that it is foolish to sit there choking and not say anything because the borrowers have a "right" to be rude and inconsiderate. If they need a cigarette that bad that it's a problem for them to wait a few minutes, then most of us would just get the job done and get out. But it could be that it just never ocurred to them that it would be a problem for someone else. Again, in the more than five years I've been doing this, it has only been an issue for me once that I can recall -- and that was cigar smoke. Thank goodness very few people in the areas I cover smoke anymore - or if they do, they are very conscious of the fact that it bothers other people, so for me, this is mostly hypothetical -- and I couldn't be happier about that!!!