Posted by sue_pa on 8/15/08 9:22am
Msg #260154

Dear Title Company (preaching to the choir)

If you want me to collect copies of 2 forms of id from the borrower, I've got a question for you. Why aren't they told this when the initial appointment is made? Why isn't this on my confirmation sheet? Why does this info show up buried in your instructions that come within hours of the appointment time? Why do you say you won't pay me if I don't collect these copies? Truly, do you think that I would sit for an hour with your borrower when you've told me in writing you won't pay me? I understand that many companies require a copy of the dl and that we are not out of line 'guessing' and telling the borrowers ahead of time to have a copy (although there are just as many companies that say to NOT collect a copy). I know some notaries carry equipment 'just in case'. A simple request to the borrower long before we are in the picture would make it so much easier - for many borrowers who don't have copying/scanning equipment at home (or who don't know how to use it unless the kids are there!) and for us.

I truly appreciate the work you send my way and I always try to be a team player and get the work completed to your specifications but a little bit of looking at the big picture for us in the field would be appreciated.

Thank you so much.

Reply by The Notary National Signers on 8/15/08 9:27am
Msg #260155

Not pay you? The BO can simply fax copies to either the TC or LO the next day. It is the TC's fault for not making them aware.

Reply by jojo_MN on 8/15/08 9:28am
Msg #260156

Unfortunately, many times the title company also doesn't know in advance. I find these requests from the lender buried in the doc package. The title company doesn't normally go thru all of the closing docs, they just forward it to us. They only look at the docs that are pertinent to their side of the closing.

That is why I carry a digital camera. Just in case. If I don't have time to drive back to my office due to getting docs out in time, I just e-mail the copy. Never had a company complain yet.

JMHO

Reply by PAW on 8/15/08 9:38am
Msg #260159

If the lender wants two ID's, then it needs to be specified in the Closing Instructions, which the title company is compelled to read and follow. If the title company wants two ID's, they need to tell us, up-front. If the lender wants two ID's and it is in the instructions to title, then there's no reason they (title) can't tell us. We always have to guess what is needed when it is in black & white in the instructions. But, we don't get to read the instructions 'til just before the scheduled appointment, which is often too late to get to the borrowers.

Yeah, I know, venting to the choir.

Reply by jojo_MN on 8/15/08 9:44am
Msg #260160

I know what you mean. I'm talking about when the lender doesn't bother putting it in the closing instructions. It will be buried at the end of the doc package on one of the identity affs. "They state a copy of valid ID must be attached". That, or "All documents must be signed in Blue ink". This is of course after signing all docs in Black. (The default color for WI).

Reply by The Notary National Signers on 8/15/08 9:49am
Msg #260161

A TC "should" know their lenders' requirements.

Reply by Kevin/Ct on 8/15/08 10:20am
Msg #260170

Hey Bob, are you a friend pof Johnny B's?

Reply by Kevin/Ct on 8/15/08 10:18am
Msg #260169

I would agree that the borrower should be told far in advance of the closing date that they are required to produce two forms of I D one of which must be photo I D. I do not think that I have ever run into an instance when the borrower was notified of this before I contacted him/her on the phone to confirm the closing time. When I have asked title companies/signing services/loan officers whether they have informed the borrowers of this obligation I received answers such as "Well, I assume that they have." The assumption has almost uniformly been incorrect, and the borrowers are often shocked by the last minute instruction to have the required I D present at the closing table.

I have also been told that the "lender only requires one form of I D". This statement is usually followed by several seconds of dead air on the phone when I inform them that what the lender requires and what the State requires are two different things.

Reply by MichiganAl on 8/15/08 9:52am
Msg #260162

And the choir says "amen sister." n/m

Reply by Les_CO on 8/15/08 10:10am
Msg #260167

Or..Get a second contact number for the borrower, or even a CORRECT first one?
Or the correct address?
Or let them know the Spouse (that’s driving a truck two States away) needs to sign?
Or even the correct State? Property is in CA, but borrower is in CO??
Or ..ANSWER THE PHONE!!!??
PS: I find a digital camera saves a lot of hassle.

Reply by Therese on 8/15/08 10:14am
Msg #260168

It's not always the lenders requirements. I have worked with a certain lender for a long
period of time whom never requested a copy of the ID. They recently changed title companys which uses a SS for scheduling and now I am expected to obtain copies. When I questioned this the SS said it was their requirement. Its just a practice they have fallen into to CYA

Reply by jojo_MN on 8/15/08 10:42am
Msg #260173

As standard procedure, I ask the borrowers if they could make copies of their IDs when I confirm. I explasin that 90% of the companies I work for require them to be delivered back with the loan docs. I also tell them that I do have a digital camera available if they don't have access. (Living in the country, no car, etc.). That way, there aren't any last minute surrpises. Many times, I tell them in advance that it is the requested on the confirmation and they just "forgot" to make the copies.

It's alway best to "Be Prepared".

Reply by Derrick/MT on 8/15/08 11:12am
Msg #260177

I never ask for the borrower to give me a copy of their ID unless they have been instructed before hand by someone else to have it ready. It is not my responsibility; that falls on the lender, TC or SS to instruct them to get a copy of it.
Help me to understand this; I see this as a privacy issue. Giving someone a copy of my ID makes me very nervous. Who knows who will have access to it and whose hands it will end up in? In Montana for the longest time your ID number was your social security number. Maybe I am just paranoid but the less information people have of me the less I feel I am going to be subject to identity theft.

Reply by jojo_MN on 8/15/08 11:23am
Msg #260178

If, after I get to the borrowers house, and there is no request in the doc package, I leave the copy with them. I've never had a borrower complain under the circumstances.

Reply by Tannis Zamora on 8/15/08 12:16pm
Msg #260181

Hi Derrick,

I understand your concerns, however to play Devils' advocate here. The Lender, TC or whomever is depending on proof of ID sight unseen. They have people to answer to as well. And having a copy of a current valid PICTURE ID plus the NSA's statement of fact in viewing and collecting such is just good business practice.

If a borrower objects then the best thing for them to do is take off of work and travel to the company's offices that they are borrowing money from and conduct business person to person. Our business is one of convenience both to the borrower and the Lender's, TC etc. Rules and regulations have to be put into place to ensure a measure of security in lending funds on real property.

I am not discounting the real threat of identity theft posed since 9/11, however, I do feel that we can "secure" ourselves out of business with such a narrow point of view.

A borrower usually tells me "I already sent them a copy of my DL". And I respond that comparison of them is a way for TC or Lender to make sure that the person the NSA sees is the same person that applied for the loan (which is usually done over the internet or phone to start with).

I have NEVER had a borrower refuse once I have explained in this manner. And it goes without saying that I make sure I respect their confidentiality and secure their identity information.

ON another note, most states are discontinuing the printing of SS #s on DL instead printing "number on file". My bank told me 4 years ago to NOT put my SS# or my DL # on my checks. To not SIGN my Debit or Credit Cards but to instead put SEE ID in the signature space.

We do all we can by staying informed but still we must move forward and make our job the best it can be.

jmho

tannis zamora TN

Reply by Derrick Dodson on 8/15/08 1:06pm
Msg #260190

I do appreciate what you are saying, but I can not see how this is good business practice on their part when we as a Notary Public have followed the correct procedures and indentified them. What is the real reason why they need to have a copy of the ID. Is it because they do not trust us in doing one of the jobs we where hired for, or is there a legal reason that they need the copy. If it is a legal reason then how come not everyone requires it.
I guess to go back to the orignial post and have some company say they will not pay because there was not a copy in the file is wrong when it is just as easy to have the borrower fax them a copy.
In your example of the company wanting to make sure that the person that applied originally for the loan is the same person the NSA is seeing is flawed because who is to say that the original ID they faxed over was not fraudulent from the beginning.

Reply by PAW on 8/15/08 1:27pm
Msg #260193

Derrick wrote: >>> What is the real reason why they need to have a copy of the ID. Is it because they do not trust us in doing one of the jobs we where hired for, or is there a legal reason that they need the copy. If it is a legal reason then how come not everyone requires it. <<<

Consumer identification is required by many statutes, policies and procedures. Each financial institution is required to specify the means they use to identify consumers opening new accounts, which includes loans and mortgages. The policy is commonly referred to as a CIP, or Consumer Identification Policy or Procedure. A company's CIP will specify what identifying method is to be used, including what information will be kept on file and how that information is to be obtained. Some companies will require a copy of the ID used to be included in the consumer's file, while others simply need to collect and validate the information on the ID. Again, depends on how the CIP is worded.

More and more companies are getting away from using a copy of an ID and relying more on data gathering. Thus the infamous identify affidavits and various forms currently in use. For example, the "Patriots Act Disclosure/Borrower Identification" (http://www.pawnotary.com/forms/Patriots%20Act%20Disclosure.pdf) form that many companies use.

Reply by jojo_MN on 8/15/08 1:31pm
Msg #260195

I've taken a few identity theft courses put on by law enforcement personnel. You should ALWAYS sign the credit card. If you want, you can add "ask for id" or "see id" in addition to the signature (put in a diffrerent color, such as red). The credit card is not valid unless it is signed. In fact it states that right on the card. The reasoning is because the sales clerk IS SUPPOSED TO check the signature to the signature on your drivers license.

Reply by Tony_FL on 8/15/08 2:01pm
Msg #260200

Actually, that's FALSE ...

If you read the merchant agreement terms for BOTH Visa and Mastercard, it states that the merchant CANNOT REQUIRE you to present identification in order to accept the use of the card for a purchase. Therefore, they have nothing to compare your card signature against.

It DOES state that the card is NOT VALID if it is not signed; you cannot use the "See ID" requirement on your card to make it valid.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 8/15/08 1:31pm
Msg #260196

If a borrower objects

<<<If a borrower objects then the best thing for them to do is take off of work and travel to the company's offices that they are borrowing money from and conduct business person to person.>>>

FWIW, each time I have personally closed on a property in a TC office, they have also required and made a copy of my D/L for the file. They are prolly gonna have to provide those copies either way, IME.

Reply by Tannis Zamora on 8/15/08 3:53pm
Msg #260235

Re: If a borrower objects

I agee. Sometimes we can make things harder on ourselves then necessary.

tannis z TN

Reply by Les_CO on 8/15/08 4:41pm
Msg #260249

Re: Dear Title Company (preaching to the choir)Derrick

Derrick…Assuming your ‘Montana’ is not on Pluto….When Appling for a loan the borrower must reveal certain ‘facts’ to the lender. Supposedly this information is true, and verifiable, (and in some cases sworn to…part of why you are there?) When you as a ‘representative’ (perhaps a reach?) of the Lender/Title Company, and a commissioned pubic officer of the State, already having in your possession many details of the borrowers financial/personal/credit information, need to ask for some sort of ID as a part of doing your job…and you can’t/or won’t because of “privacy”? You are in the wrong business! If you don’t have the trust and respect, (and can’t get it) of the borrower you should be doing something else. If you don’t understand that “giving someone a copy of my ID” is any different than giving them all the information on that ID, along with your entire personal/credit life information, and would be no less intrusive into your ‘privacy’ than a ‘photo copy’ is beyond my ability. Part of this job is to instill trust. I believe a large part. For many borrowers you will be their only face-to- face contact, and to do this job well, you will need their confidence and trust, and that trust should be well founded.

Reply by Les_CO on 8/15/08 7:25pm
Msg #260266

Re: Derrick

Derrick,
Thanks for the PM!
May I say in public?
Just to clarify, No I don’t think your comments were attacking, or rude. On the other hand, mine may have been a touch ‘rude”? I apologise.
I figure my ‘Montana’ is the same as yours? If it weren’t for Wyoming, we’d be neighbors.
I fully understand what you say about SS’s and Title Co’s putting in little ‘stipulations’ about our jobs, from “you must wear shoes,” to “take a photo of the house, inside and out”. All this ‘stuff’ comes with the job.
As far as being a ‘representative’ of the Title Company, we usually are hired by them, and as such represent (not as a notary, but as a SA) them…at least to the borrower. I always try and make it clear that I am an ‘independent contractor’ hired by the TC, to bring the paperwork to them as a convenience.
As for your comments about privacy..I believe we all have a fiduciary duty to our clients, and/or the signers to keep all their information strictly private.
I also believe we need to communicate that fact to them.
My main comment was that I carry, and have for years, a digital camera to take photos of the signers ID, if required. I have no more qualms about doing this, than having them hand me a photocopy. If they refuse the photo, I carry a ID document (similar to PAW’s) that I fill out and sign.
Sorry for any misunderstanding.

Reply by hcampersFL on 8/15/08 12:56pm
Msg #260188

Re: Preach on with your bad self! n/m

Reply by LynnNC on 8/15/08 1:35pm
Msg #260197

I always ask if it is an FHA loan, and if it is, I ask for a copy of their SS card, and if they don't have one, a copy of something else with their SS number on it.