Posted by Ronda Roaring on 8/18/08 4:13pm
Msg #260486

Grant Abstract

I did a search of Grant Abstract in Brooklyn and was surprised not to find anything. I was asked to do a closing for them on Friday. To make a long story short, I quoted them a fee only to get a note later saying they wanted me to print 3 copies. "Three copies of what," I asked. Everything it so happened. I stated that my fee only included a copy for the borrower and a copy for the lender. "We always require a copy for us," I was told. "How was I to know that?" I replied." "You should have asked," I was told. We renegotiated the fee. That was Friday. Today I got an e-mail telling me the loan had rescinded. "Why are you telling me this?" I replied. This is the reply copied right from the e-mail: "If a loan rescinds, payment is NOT processed." This company doesn't provide a confirmation. However, I did, and it was signed by someone at Grant Abstract. The bottom of the confirmation says that payment is due 30 days from date of closing. It doesn't make any exceptions. However, I think that the ethics of this company are such that that won't matter. I will get paid because I had the borrower sign an agreement saying that she would pay me if Grant Abstract doesn't. However, my reason for doing that was to protect me from all the bankruptcies that have been taking place, not to protect me from an unethical company. This will be number 5 in the passed 2 months of closing invoices that have gone to the borrower.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 8/18/08 4:41pm
Msg #260487

New Yorkers must be different than Washingtonians &

Oregonians. I would venture to say that most would not pay for a service they did not order nor sign a form obligating them to pay, me included.

Reply by Nomad/OR on 8/18/08 4:42pm
Msg #260488

You actually bill the Borrower? n/m

Reply by Ronda Roaring on 8/18/08 5:12pm
Msg #260489

Billing the borrower

I stated once before on this forum that I consulted with Bill Price, the lawyer for the creditors in the Express Financial bankruptcy (of which I am one), and he stated that, despite any contract to be paid by others, borrowers can ultimately be held responsible for paying the notary because the notary is providing the service to them, not to the SS, title company or lender. Here's an example.

Let's say you decide to build a house. You hire a contractor and you pay them the money it takes to build the house. The contractor subcontracts with a plumber to do the plumbing, which the plumber does. But before the plumber gets paid by the contractor, the contractor skips town with the money. The plumber has the right to take the homeowner to court to collect, because the homeowner ultimately benefits from the plumber's work. In fact, in NYS, the plumber can put a lien on the house that must be paid before the house can be sold.

Whether you choose to bill the borrower or not is up to you, but according to Bill Price, you have the legal right to do it.

Reply by jba/fl on 8/18/08 5:19pm
Msg #260491

Re: Billing the borrower

FL Mechanic's Lien law is much the same - I am wondering if all or most other states have this type provision as well.

Reply by SheilaSJCA on 8/18/08 5:24pm
Msg #260492

Re: Billing the borrower

California also has a Mechanic's Lien law. That is why on the SI they always ask the borrowers if there has been any construction or renovations in the past 6 mos.

Reply by dickb/wi on 8/19/08 1:08pm
Msg #260624

i am also a real estate broker and to the best of my.....

knowledge mechanics liens are pretty universal........that's why title co's have owners affidavits and the like.......

Reply by dickb/wi on 8/19/08 1:10pm
Msg #260625

forgot to mention that mechanics liens apply to........

"real property" only......

Reply by Philip Johnson on 8/18/08 5:37pm
Msg #260493

With best regards to Bill Price,

I cannot see anywhere in the regulations of Washington state (Chapter 60.04 RCW) where you are authorized a mechanics lien. Here they seem to be very specific that to file such a lien you needed to have improved the property or performed a service that improved the property. I don't think that the courts here would smile upon you, while you try to convince them that the hour you spent and the 5 seals you imprinted constitute a mechanics lien.

Reply by jba/fl on 8/18/08 6:33pm
Msg #260504

Re: With best regards to Bill Price,

Philip, she didn't say Mechanic's Lien - that was my take on it as in our 2nd's pkgs, there is notice informing borrowers of the law and how it works. Whether she is doing this, or just plain billing, I don't know. It just brought that to mind. Ronda will have to do her own clarifying, but to be fair, that was not her choice of words, rather, mine.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 8/18/08 7:01pm
Msg #260508

Her example pretty much lists a mechanic's lien

"Let's say you decide to build a house. You hire a contractor and you pay them the money it takes to build the house. The contractor subcontracts with a plumber to do the plumbing, which the plumber does. But before the plumber gets paid by the contractor, the contractor skips town with the money. The plumber has the right to take the homeowner to court to collect, because the homeowner ultimately benefits from the plumber's work. In fact, in NYS, the plumber can put a lien on the house that must be paid before the house can be sold.

Whether you choose to bill the borrower or not is up to you, but according to Bill Price, you have the legal right to do it."

Reply by jba/fl on 8/18/08 7:04pm
Msg #260509

I agree... n/m

Reply by BrendaTx on 8/18/08 9:16pm
Msg #260534

Re: With best regards to Bill Price,

I feel uncomfortable about billing the borrower. They have already paid. I think to continue in the biz at this point, there's going to be a degree of risk notaries should be willing to take.

That's just my opinion...the other thing is that I don't like that form that says the borrower will pay the notary if the transaction doesn't fund. To me...that's kind of putting the notary as a party of interest to the transaction.

Haven't asked a lawyer about this. I just feel uncomfortable (personally) about it.

Reply by Terry Fugate on 8/18/08 8:56pm
Msg #260528

Re: Billing the borrower

This is my first time posting on this site. I was wondering if I would ever see anyone post about this I sort of agree about having the borrowers sign a contract stating they would be responsible about paying my fees should the SS or TC not pay. Everything has been great until recently when I found out about LFC going under. I have 2 invoices outstanding with them from July.
My husband owns his own bussiness and it states right on his contract "Failure to pay ????? within 25 days from date of which work was completed is considered breech of contract and ????? has the right to pursue recovery for all damages including all costs and legal fees incurred by ??????? in pursuit of money owed under contract, up to and including placement of lien on said property". He had a lawyer draw up the wording to be placed on his contracts. When he suggested I do the same thing I thought he was crazy. I am not contracted with the borrowers but I do see his point. So we sat down one night last week and typed up a contract between me and borrowers but I have not had anyone sign it yet cause I want to get more opinions on the subject.
So my question is, should this be something we all should incorporate into our loan signings or is it unethical.
Everyone here has been very informative and to the point about things. It has been a pleasure to read all the posts.

Terry
Premier Notary Signing Services
Indiana

Reply by ZeeCA on 8/18/08 9:06pm
Msg #260533

Re: Billing the borrower -- This would be decided case by

case in a local court system. Unless there is legislation that addresses this it will be decided by each individual case ... but personally I can't see it having any legs in court as you did not directly contract with them and they did not directly contract with you.....

jmo, i am NOT a lawyer but have dated quite a few and.................

Reply by LKT/CA on 8/18/08 10:21pm
Msg #260543

Re: Billing the borrower

Good analogy....the practice of holding the homeowner ultimately liable is customary (and understood). When your doctor's or dentist's office bills your insurance and the claim is partially paid or denied, it is customary that you are ultimately responsible for the monies due.

However, in this industry it is not customary to hold the borrower ultimately responsible if the SS or TC does not pay the Notary. I want to get paid as well as the next Notary but it is not standard practice to bill the borrower, so for that reason alone I would not go after the borrower for payment. I'd go after the hiring entity and if I could not collect for whatever reason, I'd count it a loss and move on.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 8/18/08 5:44pm
Msg #260494

Here is a site listing all NY Lien forms.

Which one would you use to file against the homeowner?

http://www.uslegalforms.com/constructionliens/new-york-mechanic-lien-forms.htm

Reply by MikeC/NY on 8/18/08 8:19pm
Msg #260519

Re: Here is a site listing all NY Lien forms.

NY Lien Law doesn't allow for a mechanic's lien unless there's actually labor involved and/or material purchased to improve the property.

Whether we have the "legal right" to bill the homeowner if we don't get paid by the SS or TC is a question for a NY attorney to answer - what applies in one state doesn't necessarily apply in another, so I wouldn't act on the advice of an out-of-state attorney.

Reply by JerryhFL on 8/18/08 8:59pm
Msg #260530

What happens if the borrowers refuse to sign your invoice? Do you stop the signing?

Reply by MichiganAl on 8/18/08 9:58pm
Msg #260538

Don't care if it's legal or not

You won't get very far in this industry asking borrowers to sign something that says they'll pay you if the t.c. or s.s. doesn't. If I worked at a t.c. or s.s. and found out one of my signing agents was doing that, you can bet your life I'd never call them again. And if I were a borrower and was asked to sign something like that (basically agreeing to pay twice), I'd be asking the NSA to hit the road.

Reply by ZeeCA on 8/18/08 10:12pm
Msg #260541

so agree Al...... n/m

Reply by DonR_NYC on 8/18/08 11:39pm
Msg #260545

Funny I found them with a simple search of Superpages.com (Verizon's on line phone directory) Grant Abstract Inc
1908 Bath Avenue, Brooklyn, NY 11214
(718) 372-0453
and
Grant Abstract Inc
Brooklyn, NY 11228
(718) 449-9100

While I see your point, from your point of view, I would be hard pressed if I was a borrower to sign your document. In fact I would cancel the signing right there. So you wouldn't get paid anyway.

Reply by LKT/CA on 8/19/08 12:07am
Msg #260549

<<<While I see your point, from your point of view, I would be hard pressed if I was a borrower to sign your document. In fact I would cancel the signing right there. So you wouldn't get paid anyway.>>>

There is no way I would cancel a good loan just to stick it to the Notary. I just wouldn't sign such an agreement. If the Notary made an issue of things, I'd ask him/her to leave and have another Notary sent out.