Posted by NCLisa on 8/29/08 12:34pm
Msg #262565

Hired an NSA and it was a disaster!

So we hired an NSA in WV and got the docs back today. The notary knew her stamp had a problem, it does not impress a significant portion of the type, like her first name, and a portion of city, state, etc. NC requires that the seal be fully legible to record. This needed to record today, so the payoff could be wired out, it is an FHA payoff, and if not received by end of business today, an addtional month of interest will accrue. NSA also let the borrower sign the I wish to cancel portion of the RTC, and white it out, and then sign in the correct place. She did not use one of the copies, she sent the one with whiteout back. We already knew that the county would not record, but emailed them a copy of the notary page, it was rejected.

When she was called, and this was explained to her, no apology, nada. She said that she has no problem recording documents with her defective stamp in her home county, she didn't understand why there would be a problem here! I'm at a loss for words at this point!

The borrowers will be back in NC next week, so we will have to have them sign a new package and they will have to pay an additional $900 in interest!

Would you pay this notary 100% of her fee?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 8/29/08 12:36pm
Msg #262566

Maybe that explains why W VA is an attorney-only state n/m

Reply by PAW on 8/29/08 1:25pm
Msg #262580

Well, that begs the question ...

Was she an attorney? IF not, then part of the problem (and recovery) rests with the hiring agency. IF so, and even if not, this sounds like it may be the time to file a claim against her bond.

Reply by NCLisa on 8/29/08 1:45pm
Msg #262584

Re: Well, that begs the question ...

No, she was not an attorney. The attorney who we were the paralegal for said that since it was an NC property an NSA could close it.

Reply by PAW on 8/29/08 2:10pm
Msg #262591

Re: Well, that begs the question ...

That's interesting. The way I read the WV Bar Opinion (OP2003-01) << this is not to be construed as legal advice nor a legal opinion >>, it doesn't make any difference where the property is located. If the closing takes place within WV, then an attorney is to do the closing. In 2003, the West Virginia State Bar Committee on Unauthorized Practice of Law (“UPL Committee”) issued Opinion No. 2003-01, which stated that only attorneys licensed to practice in the state of West Virginia, or persons acting under the supervision of such attorneys, could perform title searches and examinations, provide title reports or opinions, perform real estate closings, or deliver closing documents (collectively, “settlement services”).

"In West Virginia, our Supreme Court is the ultimate authority on the definition and regulation of the practice of law. State ex rel. Frieson v. Isner, 285 S.E.2d 641, 647-648 (W. Va. 1981). Further, the West Virginia State Bar and its Committees are agents of the Court. Thus, actions of this Committee can fairly be construed to be an action of the Supreme Court, especially if any act or opinion of this Committee is specifically adopted or approved by the Supreme Court.

V. Conclusion and Solicitations

In conclusion, it is clear that as a whole, real estate closings are the practice of law. The Committee presumes that significant harm to the public occurs just by the practice of law by lay persons and holds such practice to be the unauthorized practice of law. "

Reply by NCLisa on 8/29/08 4:33pm
Msg #262626

Re: Well, that begs the question ...

Well the NC attorney said that the property is in NC, he was hired to do the closing, and his interpretation was that since the property is in NC, only NC law applies to the closing. This happens all the time with NC attorney, they are always right, and no one else's opinion counts.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 8/29/08 8:41pm
Msg #262661

I think PAW is right

Notaries have to follow the law of THEIR state, not the state in which the documents will be recorded; under the Full Faith and Credit clause of the Constitution, the recording state is supposed to recognize this. That's why CA notaries can strike anything regarding capacity from the notarial block, for instance, and still have the notarization accepted in the other 49 states...

Unless WV law specifically excludes out-of-state properties in the attorney-only requirement, there may be a legal problem here. And unless the NC attorney who said it was OK is also licensed to practice in WV, his interpretation may be nothing more than an opinion that doesn't carry much legal weight.

Bottom line: the venue is where your feet are; the laws there are the ones that that apply.

Reply by bfd110_IN on 8/29/08 12:37pm
Msg #262567

How many Bars did He/She have???? hee hee n/m

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 8/29/08 12:38pm
Msg #262568

LOL...more like how many had she been in!!..:) n/m

Reply by NCLisa on 8/29/08 12:39pm
Msg #262569

She has a 705, missing 2 bars. n/m

Reply by jba/fl on 8/29/08 1:06pm
Msg #262578

maybe she did those 2 bars on the way?....

Again, Lisa, just trying to find a bit of humor to a distressing situation. I'm sorry you have this delimma.

Reply by goodgirl on 8/29/08 6:56pm
Msg #262650

Re: How many Bars did He/She have???? hee hee

Whole situation reeks of negligence on all parties involved.
"Vicarious liability of a respondent superior" I say!
Problem is, $hit rolls downhill, so who starts where, and with whom...

Reply by WDMD on 8/29/08 7:06pm
Msg #262651

Re: How many Bars did He/She have???? hee hee

" The attorney who we were the paralegal for said that since it was an NC property an NSA could close it."
" Problem is, $hit rolls downhill, so who starts where, and with whom..."

My un-educated opinion is that the hiring entity ultimately should be held responsible for any monetary damages. They play by the rules then a licensed, bonded, attorney could be held accountable. They tried to get off cheap in my opinion. The hiring entity should pay the consequences of trying to save a dollar. The notary who should know better than accept the assignment should be accountable to the state. Such as lose commission and maybe be fined if that is within the state code to do so.

Reply by notaryinmo on 8/29/08 12:40pm
Msg #262570

Wonder how many signings the NSA did before she was hired. As a relatively new NSA (last 6 months), I take my time before the actual signing to be familiar with the documents. If I have any problems at all, I call the TC before I get to the table to make sure I'm dong the right thing. As far as a stamp being illegible, I would have to guess she didn't get it from NotRot or any other legitimate notary supply source. And no remorse as to her not dong a proper job?? I shudder to think of her doing any signing without proper training and materials! Pay her 100% fee?? I'd have to reconsider that, as well as her doing any future signings unless she has additional training.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 8/29/08 12:40pm
Msg #262571

That was mean...sorry Lisa....seriously

No - she knew going in she had a problem with her seal (which begs the question why hasn't she rectified it?) - did YOU know in advance? If you did you may be stuck for the fee - otherwise maybe just a small travel fee but that's it since the package she executed is useless. MHO

Reply by bfd110_IN on 8/29/08 12:48pm
Msg #262574

Re: That was mean...sorry Lisa....seriously

"NSA also let the borrower sign the I wish to cancel portion of the RTC, and white it out, and then sign in the correct place."

That is a huge no no!!! He/she wasn't smart enough to pull from the borrowers copies??? She must be able to write a heck of a paragraph......

Ok...last reference to the paragraph issues on the scoring..

Reply by NCLisa on 8/29/08 12:50pm
Msg #262575

Re: That was mean...sorry Lisa....seriously

Don't worry, it was funny!

We did not know the stamp was defective in advance or she would not have been hired. NC requires a clear 100% legible imprint. She holds herself out as a professional and very experienced in this business. Her profile comes up under a business name.

Reply by Linda Juenger on 8/29/08 1:26pm
Msg #262581

If I was the borrower, someone other than ME would be

paying the additional $900 in interest. Someone other than the borrower should be paying for this mistake. MHO is all parties involved need to cough up the additional costs. And, honestly I don't think the notary should be paid one dime. Mistakes like this should not be taken lightly. Why wasn't this caught in the 3 day RTC period. This is where these mistakes should be caught and corrected.

Reply by NCLisa on 8/29/08 1:52pm
Msg #262586

Re: If I was the borrower, someone other than ME would be

The closing was done Monday evening, docs came back via fedex yesterday, even though they should have been back on Wednesday. Everyone was out doing titlework at various ROD's yesterday, so it was after hours when the mistake was found.

Usually, if there is more time involved, we do "mailaways" on refi's for the attorney's.

The lender had been putting us off with docs for 4 days, the package came in at 2 on Monday, so we prepared the hud, lein waiver, got hud approval, and scanned docs and emailed them to someone that was supposed to be experienced.

Reply by CaliNotary on 8/29/08 3:27pm
Msg #262614

Re: If I was the borrower, someone other than ME would be

"The lender had been putting us off with docs for 4 days"

While I'm not absolving the idiot notary of any wrongdoing, the lender shares some of the burden as well. Mistakes happen, they should have their docs ready in a timeframe that allows for them to be corrected without it costing the borrower anything.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 8/29/08 2:25pm
Msg #262593

Re: If I was the borrower, someone other than ME would be

I would think that there could be a claim against the notary's bond (if WV requires bonds) or E&O insurance.

Reply by Tish/CA on 8/29/08 1:57pm
Msg #262587

She's solely responsible for the file not closing and for that reason, she should not expect any fee. A notary w/out a clear stamp, unbelievable but what really amazed me was the white out on the RTC!!! Wow!

Reply by NCLisa on 8/29/08 2:01pm
Msg #262589

Let me correct myself

We reviewed the docs today, as they came in yesterday when we were out of the area doing title abstracting. Docs should have come in on Wednesday as the closing was Monday night.

Reply by LKT/CA on 8/29/08 2:32pm
Msg #262595

Defective Notary stamp, using whiteout and no apology for any of this?

File a claim against her E & O insurance for the $900. I would pay her......$1.00....in the form of a roll of pennies.

Reply by jba/fl on 8/29/08 2:58pm
Msg #262602

That would be 2 rolls of pennies, which would cost more to mail than sending $1 bill. I think that if there is any mail to be going out, it would be to outline policy of mine that I will not incur costs on your behalf, therefore, until this is settled here is my 2 cents of which I am deducting 1/2 as you did not complete your end of the deal to satisfaction of the client.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 8/29/08 2:43pm
Msg #262598

The state of WV differs from NC

I'm not saying that what she did was right, but according to WV Notary regulations illegibility is not a reason for invalidating the transaction. That's why what she does in WV is flying.



PART I. SEAL AND SIGNATURE.

§29C-4-101. Official signature.

At the time of notarization a notary public shall sign his official signature on every notarial certificate.

§29C-4-102. Rubber stamp seal.

Under or near his official signature on every notarial certificate, a notary public shall rubber stamp clearly and legibly, so that it is capable of photographic reproduction:

(a) The words "Official Seal";

(b) His name exactly as he writes his official signature;

(c) The words "Notary Public," "State of West Virginia" and "My Commission expires (commission expiration date)";

(d) The address of his business or residence in this state; and

(e) A serrated or milled edge border in a rectangular form not more than one inch in width by two and one-half inches in length surrounding the information.

No person holding a notary commission pursuant to former section two, article four, chapter twenty-nine on the effective date of this chapter may be required to obtain or use a rubber stamp seal prior to the expiration of that commission. However, such a notary who was appointed for one or more counties of the state may obtain and use the rubber stamp seal prior to the expiration of that commission if the name of the county in which the notarial act is performed is on the seal used for that act.
[Ed. Note: All commissions affected by this paragraph expired on or before June 30, 1994.]

§29C-4-103. Seal embosser.

(a) Every notary public may provide, keep and use a seal embosser engraved to show the words "Notary Seal," his name, "Notary Public," and "State of West Virginia."

(b) The indentations made by the seal embosser shall not be applied on the notarial certificate or document to be notarized in a manner that will render illegible or incapable of photographic reproduction any of the printed marks or writing.

§29C-4-104. Illegibility.

The illegibility of any of the information required by sections one hundred one through one hundred three, article four, does not affect the validity of a transaction.

Reply by janCA on 8/29/08 2:56pm
Msg #262601

An experienced NSA would not use white out....

but would have exchanged the RTC from the borrower's package. An experienced NSA would get that set of docs sent, if not Monday night, then Tuesday morning in order for them to arrive on Wed. This screams "inexperienced" to me and she is padding her profile, which questions her integrity as a notary.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 8/29/08 3:01pm
Msg #262603

I didn't see anyone say the transaction was invalid, just

not recordable.

Reply by BP/WV on 8/29/08 3:25pm
Msg #262613

Re: The state of WV differs from NC

"The illegibility of any of the information required by sections one hundred one through one hundred three, article four, does not affect the validity of a transaction."

This is true, in my county, Harrison, Ive seen half stamps record!

Reply by BP/WV on 8/29/08 3:21pm
Msg #262610

My 2 Cents

"So we hired an NSA in WV "

Irregardless of where the property is located, WV, NC, Mars...it is UPL for anyone other than an attorney, or one under the direct supervision of an attorney, to close loans in this state.

I would report the notary to the SOS AND to the WV State Bar

Reply by Philip Johnson on 8/29/08 3:53pm
Msg #262621

So Betty since you brought this up, it looks like

the$900.00 that these folks may be out, should be paid in part by the hiring agent. They set this up without knowing the laws of WV, so they had a hand in this not closing as well.

Reply by BP/WV on 8/29/08 4:50pm
Msg #262628

Re: So Betty since you brought this up, it looks like

Knowing your states Notary laws is very important. It is the Notaries duty to know these laws. I cant tell you how many calls I receive from signing services requesting me to do closings w/o an attorney. When i tell them I need to be under the supervision of an attorney, it usually surprises them. Now, whether or not they hang up and call the next person on the list, I may never know....If thats the case, then I believe both Notary and Signing Service should be held accountable....at any rate, I hope the Notary has E and O Insurance as it is not required here.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 8/29/08 5:01pm
Msg #262630

Phillip, that would be the attorney who made the

decision that since it was NC property then an NSA could do the signing - see Lisa's post above - they were the paralegal for the attorney's office...the attorney made the call.

Reply by Ilene C. Seidel on 8/29/08 3:25pm
Msg #262612

Paid! Absolutely not, she doesn't know what she is doing and has no buz in the business.
You have to pay another close to undo her screw up.

Reply by Paul2_FL on 8/29/08 6:26pm
Msg #262646

Playing the devil's advocate here let's see if I got this

right:
NCLisa hires a NSA to conduct a signing in WV for a property that's located in NC.
NCLisa has no experience with this NSA and relies on ?
NCLisa contacts attorney who says "that since it was an NC property an NSA could close it".
NCLisa is unfamiliar with WV law and assumes attorney is correct.
Notary Signing Agent is clueless when it comes to this business. Whiteout, broken seal, etc.
Lender was negligent in getting docs to NCLisa in time to do mailaways.

Working backwards I would say that it made no difference that the Lender was late with the docs. NCLisa was able to email them in time for the closing. Lender off the hook.
This NSA screwed up this package royally and should not be paid but should be shot!
NCLisa learns a lesson not to trust what an attorney says regarding closings in Attorney States.
Attorney's feet should be held to a fire for giving inaccurate information to NCLisa. Attorney should share the blame.
All hiring companies run the risk of getting a "bad" SA at times. There is no foolproof method of assuring the hiring company that the person they hire is "experienced" even though they say they are. No penalty here.
Borrowers should not have to pay an additional $900. Unfortunately it looks like that would have to come from NCLisa's company unless she can work a deal with the Lender. PAW's suggestion of going after the NSA's bond for this amount may or may not pan out. In a court of law the real problem IMO is the closing of a loan in WV without an attorney.

Summing up - NCLisa kick the living s### out of your NCattorney for giving you bad advice and find a way for the borrowers not to have to pay the $900. (Attorney's fee maybe?)

Reply by NCLisa on 8/29/08 9:20pm
Msg #262665

I did not ask an attorney for advice, it was the attorney's

closing that the NSA was hired to close. We are also paralegals, that do real estate closings for attorneys, hud prep, title abstracting, etc. The attorney made the call to hire an NSA.

If we'd gotten the docs the week before like we were supposed to, this would have been a mailaway closing, not an NSA closing.

Reply by LynnNC on 8/30/08 9:23am
Msg #262710

Why were you involved at all as a signing service....

....if the WV attorney hired the NSA?

Reply by LynnNC on 8/30/08 9:25am
Msg #262711

Ooops, I re-read your post and now see....

that the WV attorney hired you as a SS to hire the NSA.

Reply by NCLisa on 8/30/08 10:18am
Msg #262716

We are not an SS!

We were the paralegals for a NC attorney that was doing the closing. We have 4 attorneys that use us as real estate paralegals for closings, so they don't have to retain full time staff, as each attorney does not do more than 5 to 15 closings a month.

The borrowers live in NC, and for some reason were in WV for a couple weeks at the time of the closing. We almost always do mailaways for out of area closings, unless the lender doesn't get docs to us in time. Because the lender screwed around, we needed to hire an NSA to do the closing.

Reply by SheilaSJCA on 8/29/08 7:20pm
Msg #262653

I know hindsight is 20/20, but maybe from now on, it would be a good idea to ask any notary, you are going to hire, some simple questions; such as what if the signer messes up and signs the the RTC incorrectly? What if you stamp the document, and the impression is not perfectly clear? I wonder how this person would have answered considering what she did. It might have saved this whole mess.
I would ask these sorts of questions of anybody, regardless of how much experience their profile claims they have. (Unless of course, they come highly recommended from some one who has used them, and who understands this business).

Reply by desktopfull on 8/29/08 8:04pm
Msg #262656

No, I wouldn't pay the notary. But....

unfortunately, this experience is what SS's deal with on a regular basis, it's also one of the reasons that they earn their share of the signing fee. JMO

Reply by NCLisa on 8/29/08 9:26pm
Msg #262666

I am not a signing service, I hired the NSA as a real estate

paralegal, working for an attorney. We did the title search, prepared the hud, ect. but the borrower was in WV for a couple weeks, not here in NC.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 8/29/08 8:09pm
Msg #262658

Solution: Professional Network NSA

When you hire a professional network NSA, agencies will not run into this problem.
Professional networks like ours in FL have specific guidelines that would never put an
agency in this position. Check out the FL network and other state networks.
My affiliation with these professionals is what is keeping me and Florida Notary Services
alive right now.

http://floridansanetwork.com/aboutus.aspx

Reply by WDMD on 8/30/08 6:10am
Msg #262688

Re: Solution: Professional Network NSA

"Solution: Professional Network NSA"

Would WVA even have a network for NSA's if they can't do signings legally?

Reply by NCLisa on 8/30/08 7:29am
Msg #262693

Re: Solution: Professional Network NSA

There are enough of them listed on this site.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 8/30/08 8:22am
Msg #262700

Re: Solution: Professional Network NSA

From my understanding they can, as long as they are under the "guidance" of an att'y. If this is true, yes.
But even an att'y could start a network

Reply by WDMD on 8/30/08 9:03am
Msg #262709

Re: Solution: Professional Network NSA

Heres a story for you about working for attorneys. A couple of local attorneys were talking to some abstractors down at the courthouse during the boom times. The abstractors told them about all the easy money being made, so the attorneys had to get in on it and formed a title company. They needed an experienced closer, so they made an offer to me.

They told me if I did their signings that they would pay for my bonding and give me all of their signings. They even were going to let me continue doing signings for others. Heres the catch: In exchange I had to give them %50 of my signing fees. Bargain huh? Give them half my income for them providing bonding which they already had.

I heard later that they averaged around 2-4 signings a week. They are now out of the title business.

Reply by NCLisa on 8/30/08 7:33am
Msg #262695

Guess what was missing from the loan package?

Lisa quit reviewing the loan docs when it was realized that the DT was unrecordable. She went back to the office at 9pm last night to drop off 2 NSA closings for me to get out fedex today, she decided to review the package more thoroughly.

Guess what document the NSA didn't have the borrower sign or send back?

Reply by Lee/AR on 8/30/08 8:46am
Msg #262704

RTC? n/m

Reply by MistarellaFL on 8/30/08 8:48am
Msg #262706

My guess is the note n/m

Reply by NCLisa on 8/30/08 10:20am
Msg #262717

You got it, she did not send any note back! n/m

Reply by MistarellaFL on 8/30/08 10:24am
Msg #262718

And what good is a loan package w/o the note?

LOL what a momo, Lisa.
This is why I have no problem charging the fees I charge.....experience/knowledge DOES count.
(Not directed at you, Lisa, but at the few posters who think this is such an easy job, and place no value on the services we provide)

Reply by Paul2_FL on 8/30/08 10:58am
Msg #262720

Getting back to your original post ...

1 -The NSA that was hired did not perform as expected and should not be paid.
2- The fact that the closing was done by a NSA and not an attorney in WV should nullify the closing anyway.
3 - The borrower's should not have to pay the add'l $900. The mistake was not theirs.
4 - The attorney's you work with need to bone up on out of state notary requirements.
5 - Try to follow PAW's advice regarding recovery of the $900 from the NSA's bond but may be difficult due to #2 above.

Reply by NCLisa on 8/30/08 11:26am
Msg #262722

Re: And what good is a loan package w/o the note?

When the other Lisa called me at 10:30 last night and told me that, I was floored. Even with all the other mistakes, you'd think that they would get the note signed! Lisa printed the entire package out again last night, and went through doc by doc to see what was missing after we hung up. I'll look at the list when I go into the office this afternoon. Lisa is also the absolutely nicest person I've ever met, and she was going to pay the "momo" until she saw that.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 8/30/08 6:50pm
Msg #262768

Re: And what good is a loan package w/o the note?

<<experience/knowledge DOES count>>

I totally agree! I had one a few days ago where there was a problem when the docs were scanned in. A couple of times, more than one page fed through at a time, so that it was clear (to me, as I've done hundreds of these) that pages were missing. Fortunately, they weren't anything too vital, but there was a signature page missing on one doc that CW usually finds important. [Yes, I was surprised to see a CW package these days, but there were a few BA references there.] This was a purchase, so that could have been a problem. The borrowers were aware of the situation and we'd arranged for the tc or lender to get the missing signature(s) via email.

In this case, I'm sure they would have eventually figured it out and taken care of it, but experience at the signing table saved them time and what might have been a headache. I'd like to think that that was worth something to them. Most of us who have been around a while have stories like this in abundance - perhaps on a weekly basis. Unfortunately, it's much easier to put a value on screw-ups that are allowed to happen, or are caused by, a notary than on potential screw-ups by others that are prevented by a notary. Otherwise, it would be clear that it is worth it to hire experience!