Posted by Ronda Roaring on 8/19/08 1:40pm
Msg #260634

More on billing the borrower

People seem to be more interested in the billing the borrower topic than the ethics of Grant Abstract. Here are answers to some questions.

In NYS, the mechanic's lien as a specific entity deals with the providing of a service as Mike/NY said. But there are many types of liens and ways of recording debt. In NYS, if you billed the borrower and the borrower didn't pay, you would take them to small claims court and record the judgment at the county courthouse. If it still didn't get paid, it would appear on their credit reports.

However, there was mention about some people feeling funny about asking a borrower to sign such an agreement and some people saying that they wouldn't sign. According to Bill Price, the responsibility to pay exists whether the borrower is notified or not and whether they sign the agreement or not. So if they refuse to sign, and one did, I just note on the agreement that the person was verbally notified and refused to sign. They're still responsible. They received the service.

Some of you seen not to be having a problem with non-payment, and I'm happy for you. But I've lost track of all the non-payments I'm dealing with, certainly more than a dozen. Looking back on my records, here's the tally: 3 from Premier, 1 LFC, 1 from CourtesySigners, 1 from Grant, 1 from Loan Processing Center, 1 from The Closing Connection and 6 from EFS. All the closings except the ones from ESF have been done within the past 4 months and will be going or have already been sent to the borrower. My closings entail a lot of driving, hours many times, and my fees are high because of that. The amount we're talking about in these 14 closings is thousands of dollars. I simply can't eat it. I'm running a business, and I have to pay my bills.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I do closings with lawyers all the time. I always ask for their business card, and I give them mine. You can always call them and ask them questions about how to deal with deliquent payers. They would be able to give you advice specific to your state. But at least in PA and NY, according to Bill Price, the notary has the right to bill the borrower because the borrower is receiving and benefiting from the service.

Reply by Roger_OH on 8/19/08 2:16pm
Msg #260651

If I'm the borrower, I'd point to the closing costs line (or the notary line) on the HUD and say that I've already paid for the NSA services; it's not my fault that whomever hired you isn't paying you, but my obligation is completed. I didn't hire you, and had no say in who did.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 8/19/08 2:20pm
Msg #260652

I fail to see why the Notary can't bill the borrower...

Its your business and your business model. The signing services want to control the funds because that way they are assured of getting theirs. As long as notaries rely on signing services to get their business they will always e at the mercy of their payment programs. I only work for a few signing services and I usually get paid either at the table or upon close of escrow. Notaries work for signing services because it is easier than doing our own business development and so you pay a price for it, waiting to get paid is one of the costs and everyday that the SS holds your money it could be earning interest sitting in your account stead of someone elses. Seems that some believe that its only a few hundred dollars but I am sure that Ronda could use the "thousands" owed her today, probably could've even used it when it was due.

Reply by sue_pa on 8/19/08 2:24pm
Msg #260654

My real comment isn't on whether it's right or wrong whether or not we seek compensation from the borrowers (although I personally feel they are responsible, I would hire a local attorney before taking any action). The unjust enrichment theory is what I'd use (of course I'm not a lawyer and don't know if it actually applies). I'd truly like to see a court ruling on who in the chain actually has to pay as everyone above us, borrower, signing service (if there is one), lender, broker, title company, etc., has all received the benefit of our services. None of us REALLY knows what the outcome would be and it would probably be different in different jurisdictions before different judges.

My comment is on all the other comments about the borrowers refusing to sign the form. I'm guessing the majority of borrowers would sign with no questions asked. They sign ALL sorts of irrelevant forms and question nothing. We know our job, we know the process - that's why the majority of us would refuse. I've seen this form a few times when I've worked for signing services and I've never had a borrower look twice at it, question it, or refuse to sign it.

Reply by LKT/CA on 8/19/08 3:11pm
Msg #260668

<<<People seem to be more interested in the billing the borrower topic than the ethics of Grant Abstract.>>>

To me, your original post 240486 seemed to turn in the direction of payment issues, so responders turned in that direction too.

<<<However, there was mention about some people feeling funny about asking a borrower to sign such an agreement and some people saying that they wouldn't sign......Some of you seen not to be having a problem with non-payment,....>>>

While it may be standard to hold the homeowner liable (in the example you gave) when the contractor skips out with all the money, it is not standard practice to bill the borrower when the SS or TC breaches their agreement with the Notary.

Since the industry is changing, maybe Notary standard practice should change. One change I would like to see is the Notary paid at the appointment, just as the Appraiser is. The Appraiser hasn't even fully completed their job and they get a check before they leave the appointment. The Notary returns a completed packet yet they have to invoice for payment.

Reply by MichiganAl on 8/19/08 7:12pm
Msg #260704

If I pay a contractor to do work on my property, and he sends out a subcontactor, should I sign something from the subcontractor saying I will pay him if the contractor doesn't? As the consumer, that's not my issue. It's an issue between them. I paid the contractor, I certainly wouldn't agree to pay twice. I couldn't conceive of presenting a form like that to a borrower.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 8/19/08 7:12pm
Msg #260705

Assuming you win.

"In NYS, the mechanic's lien as a specific entity deals with the providing of a service as Mike/NY said. But there are many types of liens and ways of recording debt. In NYS, if you billed the borrower and the borrower didn't pay, you would take them to small claims court and record the judgment at the county courthouse. If it still didn't get paid, it would appear on their credit reports."

When the judge figures out you did work for couple A at the behest of company B and you are suing couple A because company B did not pay, you maybe out of luck. As for presenting your own form stating that if company B does not pay you, their on the hook, whose to say company B did not pay?
Are you going back to the borrower 4 weeks later and just stating that you didn't get paid? If you did that I would welcome the chance to counter sue you with my HUD copy in hand.