Posted by jojo_MN on 8/19/08 10:36am
Msg #260582
Natonal notary laws
Is there any one place that we can get national notary laws. A book (not XYZ), or a website?
I find that a lot of the lenders and title companies don't even know what the notary laws are in the different states. I did a closing last week for someone visiting from the west coast. The title company didn't have any idea which color ink and witness, etc. The SS, and lender were all closed already with only voice mails. The borrrower luckily knew the number of an employee at the bank that he was paying off. We got the information from that person.
It would be nice if either there could be standard law that covers each state, or have it included in all closing instructions from the lender. I don't see color of ink covered very often. I have in some instances received conflicting info from the lender and tc. In those instances, I sign the tc docs in one color, the lender in the other.
Or is there any way we can have a tab included in NotRot that could list by state. I do see many notaries post individual questions such as "I'm doing a closing in X county in state of WZ, what color ink do I use and do I require winesses. ". That is great if someone is currently online, but not always feasible.
Any ideas would be appreciated.
| Reply by Lee/AR on 8/19/08 10:48am
Msg #260584
I don't think any such animal exists. The ink color fuss is usually either TC or Lender generated. Some county recorders exceed (or interpret differently) the state's actual requirements by insisting on 'this' or 'that'. Most states accept either black or blue--glitter green is unacceptable everywhere. Of course, there are some states that do have different ideas... is it Utah that wants the notary seal in purple? Point is---no matter what you think you know, it can change tomorrow.
It seems to me that IF something out of the ordinary IS required, the hiring entity should advise the notary. However, I, too, have availed myself of the superb knowledge that is available on NR when I'm doing a notarization that's to be recorded in a state other than my own.
| Reply by jojo_MN on 8/19/08 10:55am
Msg #260586
One example is four years ago, I title company told me to sign all documents in blue ink. Two weeks later, I was contacted by the same TC for the same closing. She said I had to redo the documents becuase the county refused to accept the mortgage signed in blue--they require black ink (La Crosse Co. in WI). They weren't going to pay me for the first closing until after I showed them the confirmation they sent me stating blue ink. (another reason to always keep your confirmation at least until you are paid).
I know it probably wouldn't be unreasonalbe to expect all counties in all states to be listed, but the idea is there.
| Reply by Maureen_nh on 8/19/08 12:56pm
Msg #260621
I had a broker scream at me because I was signing in black as instructed.
As it turns out, our county recorder PREFERS blue ink, state law says blue or black. If I am doing an in county mortgage and have a choice I use blue to keep them happy.
Many title cos prefer blue for the same reason. They can more easily keep track of the original docs.
When I get a conflict I call and most often the choice of color goes to the lender.
If someone is really concerned about out of state signings, it is likely, in this day and age, that the recorders have an acessable website where their requirements are listed.
| Reply by LKT/CA on 8/19/08 10:55am
Msg #260585
I believe the Notary is really only bound by their states laws. If another state requires happy faces drawn in the left bottom corner of each doc, and CA doesn't, then I'm not bound by that since the notarization took place in CA. If there are written instructions to add happy faces, then as long as it doesn't conflict with CA rules, then I would oblige. But legally, if I'm not asked or forewarned, it may not happen.
Should I be expected to know that X state requires happy faces drawn in the left bottom corner of each document? Would be nice.....but NO, not a requirement to know anything beyond my own state.
| Reply by Linda_H/FL on 8/19/08 11:16am
Msg #260588
Agree and disagree
Knowing your state's notary laws is, naturally, first and foremost for any notary...however, when wearing your Signing Agent hat, or doing a notarization on a document that's going to be recorded in another state, IMO it's incumbent upon a good and conscientious notary and/or SA to make sure that the document be returned in recordable form....if that means you do a little research, IMO that's just part of good customer service. It only takes a couple minutes to find out.
Again..JMHO
| Reply by LKT/CA on 8/19/08 11:23am
Msg #260590
Re: Agree and disagree
Jojo spoke of "national notary laws" which are different than SA knowledge. Here's what I said <<Would be nice.....but NO, not a requirement.........>>
I addressed the specifics of what she *said*, not what she inferred or meant to say.
| Reply by jojo_MN on 8/19/08 11:54am
Msg #260594
I feel that there should be national laws in effect as to
what the wording a notary should use, process of gettng the commissions, background check, etc. So many different states are different from each other. I work in MN, WI and IA, so I take the state that is most inclusive and just notarize all of them accordingly. Example--WI requires "State of Wisconsin" to be added UNDER the signature line. Not required in MN and IA, but I add them anyway so I don't miss when required.
The blue ink/vs black ink, witness, etc would obviously fall under the NSA portion of our job. Maybe it could be added to the library as suggested below or under a new, seperate tab. Just a "wish list".
| Reply by Linda_H/FL on 8/19/08 12:01pm
Msg #260599
" process of gettng the commissions, background check, etc"
This I ABSOLUTELY agree with - I personally think all states should impose strict standards for commissioning and BGC...some states are easier than others...some states are ridiculously simple....I'm all for in-depth standardized testing, continuing education and intense BGC's...
| Reply by PAW on 8/19/08 12:17pm
Msg #260606
We need less federalization, not more.
It is incumbent on the notary to know the notary laws in which they are commissioned (or licensed or whatever). For notarial acts, all states will accept a notarization performed in another state as long as that notarization is legal and proper in that state.
As far as real estate laws go, most of them are dictated at the state and/or county (even city) level. They don't need, nor should they be, nationalized or federalized. A signing agent should be very aware of any real estate transaction "special circumstances" in the areas in which they service. For out of area property locations, the title company is your sole source of authority as to what to do. If they specify blue ink, then so be it. If it's wrong, it's their problem to rectify. Just be sure you have your instructions in writing.
I know the "witness" question has been asked numerous times and I have provided a chart showing the witness requirements for states that require them on certain documents. (Print it out and keep it handy!) It can be found by doing a search. But, just for the record, I will include it below. As for ink color, many times that question has been asked and answered. Again, doing a search may be all that's needed.
State Witness Requirements (as determined by PROPERTY LOCATION) 2008
--------------------------------------------------------------------
CT - 2 witnesses on deeds of conveyance, one can be the notary
1 witness required on a mortgage
FL - 2 witnesses, one may be the notary - DEEDS ONLY (F.S.A 695.03 & 689.01)
GA - 2 witnesses, one may be the notary (GA Code - Title 44 § 44-14-33)
LA - 2 witnesses, CANNOT be the notary
SC - 2 witnesses, one may be the notary
NOTES:
1) FL - Mortgages DO NOT require witnesses, DEEDS (QuitClaim, Warranty, etc.) do.
2) Lenders may require witnesses, even though there is no state requirement.
MN - Witnesses are not required on conveyances or mortgages executed in Minnesota. Minnesota Statute Section 386.39.
RI - Per Stewart Underwriting Manual, witnesses are not required on conveyance documents (deeds) nor mortgages.
TX - Per Stewart Underwriting Manual, witnesses are not required on conveyances or mortgages executed in Texas, unless the person signing does so by making a mark instead of signing.
VT - Witnesses are no longer required. 27 V.S.A. 341 Amended 2004
| Reply by JanetLA on 8/19/08 12:33pm
Msg #260610
No way standardized tests will work. Louisiana is TOO
different. Check out our sample scenario on the Louisiana Secretary of State website. The notaries in Louisiana are able to prepare wills, mortgages, mandates and more. We are commissioned for life and are so different than other states....No way it will work. State laws are too different, unless they change Louisiana laws. Just my opinion.
| Reply by Linda_H/FL on 8/19/08 12:38pm
Msg #260613
Maybe "standardized" was the wrong term
I just a huge proponent of strict testing guidelines...sorry for the mis-statement.
| Reply by Linda_H/FL on 8/19/08 11:56am
Msg #260596
Re: Agree and disagree
Lisa, you said "Should I be expected to know that X state requires happy faces drawn in the left bottom corner of each document? Would be nice.....but NO, not a requirement to know anything beyond my own state."
And my response was addressing the end of that statement..."but NO, not a requirement to know anything beyond my own state."".....JMHO but I disagree...if you're notarizing docs for out of state matters and the doc MAY be recorded, yes your notarization must comply with the individual state notary law but it's also part of the job to be aware that other factors may come into play and make sure that the complete information is obtained - you don't have to know other state laws off the top of your head, but be aware that other states DO have other requirements and make sure you obtain the proper information in advance to ensure doing the job correctly the first time.....JMHO
| Reply by LKT/CA on 8/19/08 8:13pm
Msg #260711
Re: Agree and disagree
Hi Linda,
I agree with PAW and Sue/PA. Your points are good too. As a SA, I would carefully read and follow the TC instructions and expect that they have done their job and informed me as they should. As I learn new things, I apply them in the next situation if relevant. But will I go out of my way to do research? Probably not. What if I did research online and the TC got wind of a new change that wasn't published yet? Like PAW stated: "For out of property locations, the title company is your sole source of authority......"
The things I would be aware of would probably come with time and experience.
| Reply by Les_CO on 8/19/08 11:19am
Msg #260589
There is a difference between being a “Notary” and being a “Notary Signing Agent.” There in much to know about a myriad of different State, local, Federal, and in some cases international law governing things like contracts, real estate, lending, marital rights, etc. and in some cases what is required by different counties as far as recording, from ink color, to margin requirements. So I say to you LKT that if you ONLY know CA 'requirements', you may be a heck of a good notary, but not much of a "Signing Agent"
| Reply by LKT/CA on 8/19/08 11:24am
Msg #260591
See my note to Linda H/Fl above.
| Reply by Les_CO on 8/19/08 12:00pm
Msg #260598
I stand corrected. As far as “notary law” one would only need to know the laws of the State their commission is in. I do believe there may be some “national” notary laws governing Indian Reservations, Military bases, and areas that fall under Federal jurisdiction. I believe that Jojo was inquiring about a source stating the many differences in State laws that we need to know to do our ‘Signing Agent’ jobs. I know of no such place, perhaps an idea for a book on someones part?
| Reply by Lee/AR on 8/19/08 11:59am
Msg #260597
Have to somewhat disagree, Les....
As Linda or maybe LKT said... if we don't know (& even if we DO know), we should ask the hiring entity in order to provide what they want. I don't believe that it's anywhere near our 'job' to know the specifics of every county in every state. Following what you 'think' is right, but is not what they specified is going beyond what we've been hired to do.
| Reply by Les_CO on 8/19/08 12:07pm
Msg #260602
Re: Have to somewhat disagree, Les....
You are of course correct. One should always ask what our employers want. If THEY know?
I find many times the “escrow officer” or the person I speak with at Title, or even the lender doesn’t have a clue of any of the ‘requirements’ that may differ from what they are doing locally.
| Reply by PAW on 8/19/08 12:25pm
Msg #260608
Re: Have to somewhat disagree, Les....
As far as I know, every title company is required to have their underwriter's Underwriting Manual available at their fingertips. If the escrow officer doesn't know, they need to look it up. Most everything a title agent (and signing agent) would encounter (for title work), is covered in the UM. If they don't know, ask them, tactfully, to please check the UM. They (and you) just may learn something new.
| Reply by sue_pa on 8/19/08 12:15pm
Msg #260604
agree w/your somewhat disagree (smiley here)
there is no way in the world we are required to know requirements around the country nor should be be expected to search for those requirements (and I'm a 'good' closer). Certainly you should know the counties you cover as part of your regular territory but not an obscure county thousands of miles away. The title companies have access to this info and should be supplying it to us - not the other way around.
I did a loan the other day with one of my favorite Quit Claim Deeds included. The title company paid an out of state 'attorney' to prepare the deed. I saw "procedural" errors, mentioned it to my client, and was told that's how the 'attorney' wants it. Alrighty then. I actually thought these yahoos/attorneys had been put out of business years ago but apparently I'm wrong. "Knowing" what's right and the way things are actually completed are often different.
A few years ago there was an abstractor in my area who was telling all the title companies that my county requires black ink - not true at all - never was true - never was any discussion about it around here - but quite a few of them insisted black be used ... I don't see that requirement any longer so I'm guessing this abstractor was one that 'appeared' during the boom and is now gone.
If you know your job and see something out of the ordinary, certainly bring it up to your client but going out of your way searching for the 'correct' way is, in my opinion, totally above and beyond and unnecessary.
| Reply by Les_CO on 8/19/08 12:38pm
Msg #260612
Re: agree w/your somewhat disagree (smiley here)
Okay…I’m not trying to beat a dead horse here..But did not Jojo mention that she was TOLD by Title to use a particular color of ink, and then asked to go back, and redo the signing because the doc’s would not record?
How many times has some CA title person doing clean-outs, called the Notary and said you forgot to stamp some of the docs, when the signing was done in Maine, or New Jersey? Or called A DC notary and said you used an embossing seal, and it won’t record!? Or the notary in Ma or CT didn’t notice the dates on the docs were other than the date of the signing?
I know that many of you have been doing this a LONG time, and are well versed in what is required in different areas, and some don’t have a clue, and some could care less.
I believe that this ‘Signing Agent’ job, if done properly requires a vast amount of knowledge….but pays less for the amount of work done, and knowledge required that anything I can name.
| Reply by Linda_H/FL on 8/19/08 11:45am
Msg #260592
In response to this..
"Or is there any way we can have a tab included in NotRot that could list by state. I do see many notaries post individual questions such as "I'm doing a closing in X county in state of WZ, what color ink do I use and do I require winesses"
Maybe Harry can add it to the Library? Just a thought.
| Reply by dickb/wi on 8/19/08 12:38pm
Msg #260614
jolene...in 12 years i have used nothing but black ink......
including loans i have closed on ca property......have never had a problem with that.....that only answers the ink question i know.....
| Reply by Linda_H/FL on 8/19/08 12:40pm
Msg #260616
As a comparison....*I* have used 95% blue ink..
with the rare "black ink" signing thrown in to keep me on my toes...
| Reply by dickb/wi on 8/19/08 12:46pm
Msg #260618
blue ink on recordable docs i wi would not record...... n/m
| Reply by Yowheelz on 8/19/08 2:14pm
Msg #260649
Anderson's Manual for Notaries Public
lists all states and notary information. Ink color is a recording issue and won't usually be found in notary laws.
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