Posted by Les_CO on 8/22/08 4:27pm
Msg #261283

SS, and other comments

To my fellow Notary Signing Agents…This is a disgusting post..but I believe it needs to be said. I read this board (and others) every day, and I see here much bashing of SS”s…regardless of what they say, and whether their comments are truthful or not. I also see many posts here, perhaps the majority, by part timers, and people that now have other jobs, and actually really no longer or seldom do signings. Along with many “Anonymous Posts.” Personally I view the advice, comments, and posts, of these anonymous people with the same credence that I give to fashion advice from a cross-dresser. There are some that post here (like Sue in PA) that do 20-30 signings a day, make unbelievable (really!) amounts of money, charge at least $200 per signing, (and get it because they are so very talented) while most of the ‘less creative’ of us struggle.
Why is it you question a SS when they say they pay $50 to $90 per signing depending on location, and how docs are sent, when MANY (more every day!) advertise/publish/post these fees! It’s public knowledge! NO, they are not lying! They get THOUSANDS to work for these fees EVERY DAY! There are more companies than I can list paying “lowball fees” or lowering what they paid in the past, and many, many paying nothing. Before they closed LFC, and even now NREIS, TransNations, Nations Direct, Archer Land Title, MIS, etc. etc etc..all low paying, you get the idea!
Yet I see here when a company says we pay $45…Or (like FASS) perhaps $50, many here say BS! What are you smoking? You want US to work for nothing? Wake up! !! They DON’T CARE!!!! SOMEONE is doing these signings for these fees. Every day! These companies are not trying to “brainwash” the few notaries that post here into taking lower fees, If you don’t take one the few signings that come along today, at their price, someone else will. Yes, a ‘part timer’, or a bored housewife, a newbie, or someone desperate. There are some desperate out there, and maybe more to come. But unless you’re Sue in PA (an absolute thriving Real Estate area, according to her,) look upon a $125-$100 offer as a godsend, and a $50 offer as the coming trend. Just my lowly non-anonymous personal opinion. (No, I don’t work as a secretary in a law office) Please please, please, tell and SHOW me that I’m wrong.

Reply by Derrick Dodson on 8/22/08 4:39pm
Msg #261289

Very intersting post. Kind of reminds me of Ford of recent, Making big money off of there trucks and not paying attention to the trend that people are wanting cars that get better gas mileage. They finally realize to late after Toyota passes them by but are too late at trying to reverse their productions and report record loses and major layoffs and can't understand why people do not want to pay for a gas guzzling truck.

Reply by WDMD on 8/22/08 4:40pm
Msg #261290

"These companies are not trying to “brainwash” the few notaries that post here into taking lower fees, If you don’t take one the few signings that come along today, at their price, someone else will. Yes, a ‘part timer’, or a bored housewife, a newbie, or someone desperate. There are some desperate out there, and maybe more to come."

I have no doubt that there are many who do take those lowball fees. But in my state they are very few and far between who are legal. And thats where the problem comes in in my state. These SS's can say all they want to that they only hire licensed TPL's but thats nothing but BS. They might find licensed ones once in awhile to take their pittence. But more often then not they have to go the illegal route. Just search MD notaries in here and see how many claim experience doing signings who are not licensed. They are getting that experience somewhere. And the SS's love that, they know they can pay them their crap fees.

Reply by BrendaTx on 8/22/08 4:41pm
Msg #261292

I hope this post does for you what you need, Les.

Good luck with all this.

Reply by CJ/Alaska on 8/22/08 4:51pm
Msg #261295

Re: I hope this post does for you what you need, Les.

I guess you could say I am one of those 'bored housewives' who do this for extra money..
That being said - when I get calls for $60 e-Docs, with 'promises of LOTS of work' if I will
agree to it ... I OFTEN tell them.. "I'm sorry, I'd rather go hang out at the mall than do THAT
amount of work for so little money.." ~ Knowing full well that a service paying $60 is getting
a bigger piece of the pie than I would..
I have the Commission.. the Background Check.. the EOI.. not to mention the costs to pass
that NSA exam.. Why on earth should a signing company make more than me when all they
do is take and make phone calls ?? Cuz in many of my deals, as soon as I accept "the deal",
thats the END of the help or service/support I get from these services.
I get the occasional Unprofessional question "Ohh, come on, Do us a Favor.." Excuse me?? Im
not a non-profit organization, here to make THEIR lives easier (and more profitable)..
So I take fewer jobs than alot of ppl .. But Im not burning thru all my ink and paper for $60
e-Docs with 20 pages of FaxBacks, to wait 60+ days for my bag of peanuts.
I am an experienced professional - I'm not "JUST a notary."
Good Luck to you all

Reply by Les_CO on 8/23/08 11:42am
Msg #261428

Re: I hope this post does for you what you need, Les.

Yes Brenda...I was just looking for response..I got it. But I guess now some here hate me?..boohoo.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 8/22/08 4:45pm
Msg #261294

Les, Correct Me if I'm Wrong...

...but you appear to be be more than just a tad critical of sue_PA & by the tone of your remarks there's disbelief of her professional success. I can tolerate the rest of your post as your "other" remarks contain at least a modicum of reality. I even agree to a large degree with your assessment of those who post anonymously. However you're completely off base with this weak attempt to discredit sue_PA's achievements in the signing industry. To borrow a phrase...you can't even carry her water.

Reply by Les_CO on 8/23/08 11:39am
Msg #261426

Re: Les, Correct Me if I'm Wrong...

You could be right...I was probably a bit more critical of Sue, that I had a right to be. It just seemed to me that when everyone else if doing poorly, and getting lowball offers she still gets many, many $200 plus jobs. Altho she chooses to remain anonoymous. Just seems to good to be true. I was not, and am not trying to discredit anyones "achievements"...just questioning.
May I ask how many $200 offers you've had this month?
As for carring her water..You're right again...I'll leave that to you.

Reply by Lee/AR on 8/22/08 4:52pm
Msg #261297

Les, I know you mean well, but you are simply wrong when you think that all notaries are stretching the truth. I have not taken a $50 signing in 15 years....and that was my 1st signing--I quickly realized they would AND COULD pay more. 15 years later, $50 IS ridiculous. (Further down in reply to that Harry SS person, I broke down a $65 signing---check it out....argue with it if you can.) Further, I still work (rarely) for those 'low-ballers' you mentioned...NREIS, FASS, Nations Direct and a few other VMs and even some SS....but at MY fees. Not $1 less. For those who wish to work for minimum wage...without any 'real job' benefits---what can I say beyond the obvious: Do the math!

Reply by BrendaTx on 8/22/08 5:04pm
Msg #261302

**For those who wish to work for minimum wage...without any 'real job' benefits---what can I say beyond the obvious: Do the math!**

And, why wouldn't anyone care enough about their time and themselves to do better than that?

That's what I don't understand. Even if $50 is the trend of the future...will anyone with a sense of integrity continue this?

I don't get it. Why would they put up with working for the likes of a propagandist like Henry Davidson to earn so little?

Is the notary business as "brainless" as some SSs say about notary vendors? Could a monkey do it? Is it worth nothing more than a few dollars an hour?

Reply by CJ/Alaska on 8/22/08 5:31pm
Msg #261315

I wonder out loud - are the banks telling Appraisers they should start lowering the fees they charge? Their fee is their fee - and the borrower knows it. If a borrower is doing the on-line refi thing, they should be aware of costs, such as one to secure an experienced Notary to come to them at their convenience for a comfortable, hassle-free signing..
The biggest problem is - there are too many Signing Agencies out there!
The technology is available for the lenders or TC's to find a good NSA at any time, and to keep a small roster of names for occasional use.. Some do it - many do not.
Its not inevitable that we must accept $60 signings.. and I don't do them...
I feel sorry for those who say they have to.. because next year, that $60 will go down to $50....

Reply by Derrick/MT on 8/22/08 5:36pm
Msg #261316

"I wonder out loud - are the banks telling Appraisers they should start lowering the fees they charge?"

No need to wonder, appraisers are lowering there fees just to get the business. Also Real Estate agents are starting to lower there fees to get the listing.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 8/22/08 6:52pm
Msg #261327

Hey, hey, hey lay off the Simians.

Some of my best friends and even a brother or two are knuckle draggers.

Reply by Lee/AR on 8/22/08 8:30pm
Msg #261346

Not Harry (apologies to Harry) meant Henry, SS person... n/m

Reply by Les_CO on 8/23/08 11:51am
Msg #261430

Re: SS, and other comments n/m

Reply by Les_CO on 8/23/08 11:53am
Msg #261431

Lee, you are probably right. I KNOW some notaries are still getting decent fees. I don’t work for $50..I still charge $125 for edoc std refi, if it’s close. I know at a half dozen Denver area notaries that do too. I know one that asks $150, and get’s it sometimes. But these jobs are becoming fewer every day,and I turn down a couple of low offers every week.
I just get tired of anonymous posters telling us all that they are getting more work than they can handle, and getting $200 plus per job, and the and we the ‘great unwashed’ are doing something wrong.

Reply by ZeeCA on 8/22/08 5:00pm
Msg #261299

LES: you have mentioned in the past you are very good

friends with someone who has a ss and does not pay high fees IF I RECOLLECT CORRECTLY. ... so when I read your post what comes to mind is you are here for your friend. Let these no nothings take these low ball offers. I get called by a bank 3-4 times a day and just go in to do general notary work and make MUCH more than these low offers for loan signings. In and out in 5-10 minutes with my $XXX in hand and no paper, ink, or time costs.

but what is unnacceptable is your SUE/PA bashings. Are you jealous? envious? or what? Sue/PA sets a standard that I admire and am grateful for.

THANKS SUE/PA FOR RAISING THE BAR

Reply by Lee/AR on 8/22/08 5:03pm
Msg #261301

Probably the MOST motivating factor for his post. n/m

Reply by CJ/Alaska on 8/22/08 5:04pm
Msg #261304

But what to Gain by it?? N/M

*

Reply by Lee/AR on 8/22/08 5:09pm
Msg #261307

A reputation -- not a good one. n/m

Reply by notaryinmo on 8/22/08 5:16pm
Msg #261311

Re: But what to Gain by it?? N/M

IMHO, I believe that sometimes, people just need to get their thoughts down and see them in black (or whatever colour) and white. It isn't often that a person types a whole page and refrains from hitting the "post" button.

I've come to realize that although most of the Notaries on here truly try to help the best they can, there are those who seem to ridicule, insult and attack other Notaries. If one is seriously bothered by those people, the best thing to do is just not read their posts.

Reply by BrendaTx on 8/22/08 5:07pm
Msg #261305

Whatever sue-pa has said is truth.

I'm with Dennis on that one.

Les has no idea or hasn't been around long enough to understand...Maybe?

Reply by Les_CO on 8/23/08 12:54pm
Msg #261446

Re: Probably the MOST motivating factor for his post. Lee

Lee ..No this time you are wrong. I find most of your posts to be spot on...but not this time. My friend does have a SS...She does not post here..she seldom reads these boards. Because of her experience, I have let us say 'softened' my opinions of SS's a bit. I think they do have a place in this business, and actually some do a good job, and are honest, hardworking, and conscientious. Some are just deadbeat thieves. No one here has to work for a SS, or has to take any fee that less than suits them.

Reply by Les_CO on 8/23/08 12:42pm
Msg #261443

Re: LES: you have mentioned in the past you are very good

No..not here for my friend (also named Susan). She has little time to read chat boards, and my posts would give her hives.
No, I'm not jealous of Sue/pa, for all I know she's a phantom. She may be a notary, or may not/ perhaps a Signing Agent, prehaps with some legal experience or perhaps not...She doesn't say, and I don't care enough to guess. What she does say is she has plenty of business, and charges top dollar for it. I take such anonymous claims, with all the the credence that the unknown poster deserves

Reply by WDMD on 8/23/08 12:49pm
Msg #261445

Re: LES: you have mentioned in the past you are very good

" I take such anonymous claims, with all the the credence that the unknown poster deserves"

Just because we can see your name makes you more credible? I would think those who have posted that they know Sue personally and can vouch for her would lend her some credibility. Wouldn't it?

Reply by BrendaTx on 8/23/08 1:05pm
Msg #261448

Re: LES: you have mentioned in the past you are very good

**Wouldn't it?**

Apparently not. Although, Julie/MI (who links to her name) has had lunch with the "phantom".

"Lunch with the Phantom" sure has a nice ring to it. I think there's a blog or book deal there just waiting to happen.

Reply by Les_CO on 8/23/08 6:03pm
Msg #261483

Re: LES: you have mentioned in the past you are very good

In my opinion …YES!
It surely does make me more credible!!
You may disagree with my opinions, and with what I post, but when I say I’m a Notary you can check with the CO SOS and see. If I say I’m a licensed Real Estate Broker you can check with the CO Real Estate Commission, and see. If I say I am in business for myself, and own my companies, and have been since the 70’s…it is of public record.
If Sue, you, or anyone else posts anonymously…you may just be that “cross dressing bartender” that is bored. How the heck am I suppose to know? Do I take some phantom's word as gospil?
If Sue or anyone else wants respect and creditability let them be at least be visible. And do not criticize those who ARE credible for asking.
You may not like what I say, and some of what I say may be wrong…but at least I can PROVE I am what I claim to be.
And for those (that are not anonymous) and posted in Sue's behalf...Thanks....Now I know.

Reply by WDMD on 8/23/08 8:59pm
Msg #261513

Re: LES: you have mentioned in the past you are very good

You caught me Les. I must admit that I'm actually a ditch digger who enjoys coming on notary forums and assisting notaries and TPL's from Maryland where in the code or handbook they can find information. Or try to warn them when some SS is trying to blow smoke up their butts to try and make them believe there are thousands of TPL's in MD taking their crap fees. It makes my day.

Reply by BrendaTx on 8/23/08 10:54pm
Msg #261534

Re: LES: you have mentioned in the past you are very good

**You caught me Les. I must admit that I'm actually a ditch digger who enjoys coming on notary forums and assisting notaries and**

Laughing out loud here...AGAIN...WDMD and this is the second time I've read it. It's perfect.

Reply by jba/fl on 8/23/08 11:03pm
Msg #261537

Re: LES: you have mentioned in the past you are very good

Well, hello, I might as well admit to Booby below that the difference between $100 signings and $90 ones is that loving sex, drugs and rock 'n roll $10 will fill my crack pipe.

Reply by CaliNotary on 8/22/08 5:15pm
Msg #261310

This board has become like Groundhog Day

How many times a week is there a new thread titled "To the notary who took the $XX signing in XX location", followed by the "Shame on you" message, followed by the many messages of outrage that anyone in this industry would work so cheaply, and it's all done as if the EXACT same thread didn't occur the day before. Or 2 days before that. The only reason I even read the latest one was because I saw Henry had spewed all over it, and if nothing else his posts have become pretty humorous, as are the reactions to what he has to say.

And the funniest thing is, there is absolutely NOTHING abnormal about any of it. Do you think the president of Best Buy has a coronary every Sunday when he opens the Wal Mart ad? "How can they sell that TV so cheap! They're not making any money! What an insult to the entire retail industry! I must go post a new thread about it on the retail management message board!"

It's this way in every industry people. One end of the spectrum is price, the other is quality. Different business models look at different factors in the spectrum and operate accordingly. It's the same reason some people buy Hyundai's and others buy BMW's. The same reason why some people eat at McDonald's and others eat at Spago. And the state of the economy is a major decision factor which can result in people moving one way or another on the spectrum. Which is why SUV sales are WAY down from a few years ago and sales for the Honda Fit are through the roof.

For anyone to act like there's something wrong with this just shows a major lapse in their business skills. It's reality, it's always been reality, it'll always be reality. Adjust your business model accordingly. Either a) work cheaper so you'll get more work, b)accept the fact that you're going to work less if you're going to be inflexible on fees in an industry that is increasingly price conscious, or c)get out of the industry altogether.

Personally, I've chosen option B, and instead started a side business that has filled in the income gap pretty nicely. And honestly, I'm ready for option C, but haven't yet been able to accomplish it, so I'm just biding my time until it actually happens.

Reply by jba/fl on 8/22/08 6:01pm
Msg #261321

Well said Cali-the times, they are a changin -

Adapt or become extinct...hard to do as we get older, but most of us are resilient w/ thick hides. It is part of life cycles

[these lyrics are found on http://www.songlyrics.com]

[Intro]
Oh oh oh
All we are is dust
Oh oh oh
All we are is dust in the wind

I close my eyes
Only for a moment then the moment's gone
All my dreams
Pass before my eyes a curiosity

Dust in the wind
All we are is dust in the wind
Dust in the wind
All we are is dust in the wind

It's the same old song
We're just a drop of water in an endless sea
All we do
Just crumbles to the ground, though we refuse to see, yeah

1 - Dust in the wind
All we are is dust in the wind
(Life's too short brothers and sisters)
Dust in the wind
All we are is dust in the wind

Don't hang on
Nothing lasts forever, but the earth and sky
It slips away
And all your money won't another minute buy

Repeat 1

Open your eyes, you've aquired quite a bit
Keep your balance, don't you slip
It could all end instantly, as you will see
Time waits for no one, it just moves on

There is a white one
Who can't accept the black one
Who won't accept the yellow one
Who can't accept the white

When will we learn
All we are is dust in the wind
Time for the healing to begin
All we are is dust in the wind
Everything is dust in the wind
Everything is dust in the wind

Reply by RickinVA on 8/22/08 7:29pm
Msg #261330

Re: This board has become like Groundhog Day

Well, heck! This is tough! I'm in "option 3", since I CAN be! I am retired, but I retired twice. Once I got no retirement since I sold a small (very) business, and then went to work in commissioned sales. I was not there long enough to qualify for a retirement plan, and went to work for a government agency. I retired on disability; laid around lamenting my lost opportunities, and then found this gig. While my retirement money is almost adequate, it is not conducive to eating out often, or taking trips and buying stuff! It takes care of my needs, but not my wants. However, the money I try to make from notarizing loan docs makes things a lot easier. I do not intend to do that for Walmart wages so I am unable to work for the many offers I get to do those jobs for 40-80 bucks. Also, I have been doing this for over 4 years and 600+ closings, so I am forced to turn down 80% of the jobs that DO come my way. Some SS's are shocked when I counter their off by 90 to 150%, and I only get 4-7 jobs a month, but those jobs are at least lucrative. An SS called me last week for a job about 30 miles away. They offered $90. After 'discussing' it for a while, I determind that they wanted a split package with 40-50 faxbacks. I offered a figure I hoped they would refuse, but they accepted it. To my relief, the borrower told me not to come because they were not going to sign. I'll have to remember to raise my price if they call back to sign it later, but it was well over my regular fee. I was figuring $25 to split and $25-40 for the Faxbacks. Obviously that's not enough for the time involved, but you can't price yourself completely out of the market.

This kinda rambles, but you can get an idea of what I'm talking about. DON'T sell yourself short!

Rick

Reply by Henry Davidson on 8/23/08 9:06am
Msg #261393

Re: This board has become like Groundhog Day

And another clear minded individual jumps out to post....Thanks.

Well said.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 8/22/08 5:27pm
Msg #261314

YOU GO SUE!!!!!!!!!! n/m

Reply by MichiganAl on 8/22/08 8:08pm
Msg #261337

I'm really disgusted too, Les

Disgusted that a few signing services have turned this into their personal propaganda board. They keep trying to convince us (apparently they've successfully convinced you) that their cheap fees are the norm and that they've got tons of highly qualified people lined up. If that's really the truth, then what's the need in continuing to hammer the point over and over and over again? They've got their cheap notaries, including you, so they don't need those of us who put a higher value on what we do. Why continue the conversation if they already have everything they need? They keep telling us how busy they are and how successful they are. So why are they trying so urgently to push this point across if they've got thousands of notaries already taking these fees? Why? Because they're so full of horse manure that it's coming out of their ears. They're sinking and they know it. They're desperate and their flailing wildly trying to save themselves. I've recently become very familiar with this kind of behavior. It isn’t pretty and it isn’t helping their case.

I don’t know about your peers, but I know what my peers average per closing. I’ve talked to other signing agents in Michigan, Illinois, Florida, North Carolina, Texas, Ohio, California, Virginia, and Wisconsin. They average double to triple the fee we’re being told to accept. Just because some signing services say it’s so, doesn’t mean it’s so. There’s nothing objective about their assertions. They’re no different than the NNA. They’re hoping if they say the same lie over and over again, it’ll turn into fact. Fortunately many of us aren’t that gullible.

And as far as which posts I give credence to and which posts I take with a grain of salt, I can say that I appreciate Sue's candor and believe her posts are always on the mark. Apparently she bruised your ego somewhere along the way for you to single her out so much in your post.

Reply by jba/fl on 8/22/08 8:22pm
Msg #261341

Re: I'm really disgusted too, Les

I have been watching Bill Moyer's Journal for the past 13 ;mins. He is focusing on the 20% unemployment in Denver, the economic downturn, college grads w/2 degrees who are unemployed and not finding anything; the middle & upper classes who used to contribute to the churches and charities who are now in line for assistance; the churches running out of food as they used to service 100 families a week and now 400 are showing up; how fast the downward spiral really becomes.

I think there is a problem beyond Sue, who I do not think is the issue at all. JMO

Reply by Henry Davidson on 8/23/08 9:12am
Msg #261394

Re: I'm really disgusted too, Les

@AL-

This totally goes against what you and I discussed and you agreed to over the phone...live.
We agreed there ARE thousands of notaries that accept these fees and are YOUR problem...my solution. Dont blame the SS's for this ....we agreed on that. Didnt we or were you BS'ing me because it was live and you were nervous?

Im not trying to MAKE you believe anything...just stating facts. I dont get anything from this board...not business...obviously not notaries so whats my propaganda? or BS? C'mon Al...This isnt at all how you sounded live!

Reply by MichiganAl on 8/23/08 2:59pm
Msg #261460

Don't lie to prop up your arguement

We most certainly did not agree that it was our problem and your solution. Do you remember Henry, I said that blaming only the notaries for taking cheap fees is like blaming just one party in the entire mortgage mess. I said the blame belongs to the signing services that offer cheap fees and the title companies that pressure you to offer cheap fees as much as it lies with those who take it. You wanted me to be your advocate for accepting these fees, I said I would not. You said FASS has thousands of people who accept these fees, I said they're Sally part-timers who do this for pin money. You said that we are a commodity, I said that me and my peers are certainly not. You wanted me to tell my title companies to call me directly for any closings in the U.S. and then refer them to you for a fee, I said I would not. I explained my ideas regarding state networks. Any of this ringing a bell?

Henry, I've spoken in front of thousands of people, performed on stage a hundred times. Believe me when I say that talking to a signing service on the phone wouldn't make me nervous. Did I stumble, did I hem and haw? I know my beliefs, and I feel quite strongly about them. You were polite, so I was polite. I never said I agreed with you, but I listened and commented respectfully. But you've been nothing but a horse's @ss on this forum and when you keep pushing the same point 100 times, it clearly becomes an agenda. That's not my idea of adding value or having a meaningful conversation.

P.S. My black cat Shadow says hi. He plans on walking across your path the first chance he gets.

Reply by Vince/KS on 8/22/08 8:26pm
Msg #261343

Competition?

Without spending a lot of time on it, it appears as though Les has a great deal of competition in his area near Denver (do a zip search here and elsewhere for Jefferson County). It is very possible with the vast number of people trying to get signing work that many of them have no idea what to charge and perhaps are willing to each do it for $5 less than what they think others charge. With that scenario, I can see the market dropping to a level that will not support a decent wage.

Reply by Julie/MI on 8/22/08 9:54pm
Msg #261357

I had the honor of meeting Sue a few summers ago. And let me tell you, she walks the walk and knows a thing or two about the Amish and lightening bugs!

She is a business woman and for those of us that have been doing this for a long time, it's exceedingly painful to compare our spreadsheets from 2002 to now.

She is truthful and has a client list that would make you shudder with glee.

I remember when she asked on an old board if Coke and Pepsi share secrets and I knew then she was my kinda a person.

Listen to what she says and you will learn.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 8/22/08 9:55pm
Msg #261358

I'm throwing my lot in with Les.

When I want a pineapple, I can't call the Big Island and just say can you send one over? Oh I guess I could, but they are much cheaper when I go to Safeway (the middle man) who probably bought from a food broker (another middle man) to get it. When I got my car I didn't go to Indiana and pick up my Outback. I had to go to a dealer (the middle man) and purchase it from them. Why do folks that participate in this industry think that there should be a direct connection to them straight from the TC, bank, whomever? I can't think of one industry/service in this country that works this way, again why should ours?

I don't know any SS people, I work for a few and when we come to an agreement we do business. No one holds a gun over me to work with them, I know what I need and if we agree we do business. There are some on this board who seem to take it personally that they were under bid by someone else and for that the under bidders are called the scourge of the industry and are responsible for others not eating. Come on, it's still America and we have competition. If you can't or won't compete, because to work for $100.00 is beneath you, good for you. Just don't bellyache
about the person down the street who has worked out that $100.00 will do fine, for their needs.

The world ain't static and those that refuse to change are pushed out and new folks take their place. This market isn't good and yes back in 2005 you were getting $200.00 to do that loan. Hopefully you saved some of that for now, when maybe $125.00 is considered good. One final thought, I would imagine that half of us at sometime at thought about opening a SS. We all thought why hey,look at what they make and I could do a better job and get a cut of the action. How many of us have? Again I would venture very few, because most were happy in what they were receiving and why go to all that work?

Reply by BrendaTx on 8/22/08 10:17pm
Msg #261365

Re: I'm throwing my lot in with Les.

**One final thought, I would imagine that half of us at sometime at thought about opening a SS. **

Nope. Not here.

**Come on, it's still America and we have competition.**

Exactly. Signing services are the notary's competition. That's the point. Listening without a filter to understand this business is folly for the notary. It's a fox in the hen house wearing chicken feathers and combs and it's driving the signing business margin of profit for notaries into a hole.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 8/25/08 1:33am
Msg #261646

That analogy doesn't work imo...

Sorry, but I have to disagree with your analogy about the "middle man". You give examples where there are physical products that have to be shipped, where buying in volume allows for economies of scale. We are not dealing with pineapples or cars. There is no such equivalent in our business where it's just as easy for a tc to email (or post a link to download) directly to us vs. a signing service. Also, if they are willing to pay a reasonable fee (e.g. what most of them are probably paying SSs), it shouldn't take too many calls to find someone willing to take the assignment. And if they choose qualified professionals - also not a problem for a reasonable fee - they don't need to babysit or answer lots of questions. (The latter assumes that all the other players have done their job right, too!)

BTW, count me in with those who have never considered or had the slightest desire to open a signing service. (And my hat is off to those very few of you SSs who do a good job, treat us with respect and pay a reasonable fee.)

Reply by sue_pa on 8/22/08 10:03pm
Msg #261359

mercy, mercy me

Someone has been festering all week, hasn't she?

I've got no idea what started this tirade nor do I really care. The other day in a thread regarding reverse mortgage applications you said about picking up docs and returning them for $50. I said the company that pays $150 requires xxx work for the money. My oh my, the rambling, babbling pm you sent me. If you look back, you'll see the name actually mentioned of the company that's paying $150 for these - not just to me but to everyone - they set the fee the first time they called me.

Your ridiculous exaggerations take away any credibility you may have had. You said in your pm that I should 'prove' my numbers to you. Why should I? What if I am outright lying and I do two $65 orders a week? What if I'm not even a notary? But, let's pretend that I really do earn a living at this job. I'll tell you what I did today - $200 (overnight docs 2 miles from my house - yeah, I love my job); the rest e-docs of $120, $125, $125, $125. Sorry, that's an average of $139 per order - not the $200 you pulled from your b.... Today I drove a total of 165 miles. Monday so far I've got $125,$200, $200, $125, $150 - getting better - $160 average. Gasp, I've got one scheduled next Wednesday (and it's cutting into my tee time) for $75. I'll tell you what I've done so far in August - I've worked for 19 different companies - 4 of them signing services who have paid more than $90. I could care less if you or anyone else believes me or not.

The point of my somewhat agitated posts lately are to present a different point of view. If no one who makes any money in this business speaks up, everyone lurking and reading will believe the services when they come on a public board and say that $90 is the going rate. Of course fees have lowered the past few years. My average used to be $175+. I used to do twice the amount of closings I do now. I am frightened EVERY day that my phone will never ring again due to the doom and gloom predicted for our economy in general.

You are 1000% correct when you say there are thousands of notaries working for dirt cheap - someone got one from Nations Signature Closers in my area Monday (should be everyone's busy day) for $65 e-docs. Good for them. I wish them well. I know this time next year they won't be around. I also know that NSC will find someone else by that time to take their $65 order and good for them also. There are still plenty of companies willing to pay a fair fee for a good job. The tremendous task for 'signing agents' is to find and retain those companies.

And yes, I am in a 'good' real estate area, not thriving as you state.

As for me being anonymous, I hardly think so. Many, many people know exactly who I am. I choose not to link my profile to my posts for my own personal reasons - one of which is the IDIOTS lurking (and now apparently) posting out here in notary world.

So, my dear Les, why you've picked me I've got no idea nor, as I said, do I care. Believe me or not that there are some people who can get more than $65 or $90 for an e-doc loan.

Reply by Lisa Prestegard on 8/22/08 10:26pm
Msg #261367

*thunderous applause* Sue....

Let me take up a tiny bit of bandwidth to say thank you. I've probably not ever told you that before, and now seems like the perfect time to let you know that in the 3+/- years I've been reading this board, there are a handful of folks that I consider consumate professionals.... some of the best in this business.... and you're one of them.

IMHO, you owe no one an explanation. Your professionalism speaks volumes

Reply by BrendaTx on 8/22/08 10:31pm
Msg #261370

Absolutely, Lisa.

sue_pa and Alex's posts have made way too much sense. I babble about hens, chicken houses, and foxes in costumes...but sue's and Alex's posts say it all.

Why all this argument if the SS reality is actual?
Why would they care to argue? It's NOT to help the notary...who might be able to circumvent them in at any given time.
Why not just shrug it off and keep on moving if they've got a good thing going?


There are good signing services...the ones you hear nothing from on NR...but as I have said before, they aren't here trying to drive fees down to nothing or saying that only SF can command a slightly higher fee. They just keep on working and keep on using reasonable bidding practices and reasonable fee cuts for their own business.

Reply by MichiganAl on 8/23/08 12:01am
Msg #261378

There are good signing services - agreed

I work with two on a regular basis. I'm happy to name them:

Angi Signing Service - I forget that they're a signing service. My relationship with them is very much like my relationship with title companies. They know the business, they're always available, they're responsive, they're in the loop, they trust me. They're not just the middlemen, they help make the whole process go smoothly. Love em.

Nations Signature, Kansas & Ohio - The first signing service I ever worked for. In an industry that has no loyalty, they've been the exception. They still pay me my same fee, and as a preferred notary with them they still call me first when something comes up in my area (although I'll admit I've had to turn down the few RESPA signings they've offered as the fees on those are really low).

Both took the time to find out about the quality of my work. Of course I don't make what I make directly from my title companies, but I'm satisfied that they're offering me a fair fee, not gouging me, not selling me a bunch of b.s.

Reply by Lisa Prestegard on 8/23/08 12:25am
Msg #261382

they protesth too much, methinks...

As for me, I'm with Sue, Al, you... there are a few good guys in the SS biz, our Sylvia being one of them. Fair, honest, available... qualities I expect when conducting business with anyone.

I've worked for many over the past 4 or 5 years, SOX included (before I was educated). And only been stiffed on fees by one, out of xxxx loans closed, and it wasn't SOX. (Search the Graham Hickey/Geoff Hickman post)

Bottom line? Perceived value for ones services.

Reply by Bernie_PA on 8/23/08 5:04am
Msg #261385

Re: *thunderous applause* Sue....

This is my first post (and probably last)....I've lurked here for some time and swore I would never post, but I must add something here.

I'm from Pa. and had lunch with Sue last month. While we were at lunch, her phone rang 3 times....all requests for signings. While I must admit I was envious, I knew the reason why.

When business was booming, Sue was ALWAYS looking for more business. I know I wasn't...I was too "busy." She's an extremely hard worker, and in my opinion deserves every bit of success she may enjoy in these tough times.

Reply by Les_CO on 8/23/08 11:27am
Msg #261423

Re: mercy, mercy me

Well Sue, thanks for the reply. First may I say that I am happy that you can still command a decent price for a signing. I would guess very few posting here today get $200 plus. Refreshing to hear that ‘sometimes’ you take less. I perhaps unfairly singled you out because, one, you are anonymous. (and I give little credence to unknown posters) And two, it seems to me that whenever someone posts here that their business has slowed, and they are having a tough time, and that they are being offered less money for their work …your answer is: “I” get $200 plus, plus and “I” still do many, many, closings a day! Well, okay, if you say so. I say you are truly unique within this community. I guess that you are VERY smart, and I along with some here are just stupid, or are just imagining that our business has slowed, and we, not YOU, but the rest of us are being offered much less for our work. Anyway, it seems that many posters here think you are just wonderful..lets hope they are right.
And I know that there are some getting more than $65 to $90 for a signing. Even here in Denver, I for one charge $125, and can name a half dozen others that do too...I just don't know of anyone (here) getting $200 plus.
I sure wish with your talent you would run for for some political office, we NEED you in the government to fix our economic mess.

Reply by BrendaTx on 8/23/08 11:41am
Msg #261427

Re: mercy, mercy me

Les said, "I perhaps unfairly singled you out because, one, you are anonymous. (and I give little credence to unknown posters)"

Les...I have "known" her, had learning opportunities and had networking opportunities with sue_pa since late 2003...or early 2004. I know her full name and where she lives. I know who some of her better clients have been and who some of her clients are.

To a great many of us she is anything but anonymous.

Read Bernie's post to make sense of this woman you find so incredulous. I consider her one of my mentors from back in the day...she was generous with her knowledge, and kindly so, I would add. Please...let's not make this debate about sue_pa. Thank goodness someone here is working FULL time in the business and doing well.

Reply by Les_CO on 8/23/08 1:08pm
Msg #261449

Re: mercy, mercy me

There have been many times in the past that some"Anonymous Phantom" comes to this board and post's whatever pops into their head. If I misjudged Sue, which I apparently have, I apologize. It would seem that she too, (as per her last post) has been hit with the present slow market, and that she is also"adjusting" her fees to reflect that market. I hope she keeps her well paying client base, and also wish her continued success.

Reply by CaliNotary on 8/23/08 5:51pm
Msg #261480

Re: mercy, mercy me

"There have been many times in the past that some"Anonymous Phantom" comes to this board and post's whatever pops into their head. If I misjudged Sue, which I apparently have, I apologize"

OK, now you're just making yourself sound stupid. You're equating Sue, who has been posting here for years, to the random newbies who pop up here and there, all because she doesn't link to her profile?

Reply by Les_CO on 8/23/08 6:11pm
Msg #261486

Re: mercy, mercy me

You may think my position stupid if you wish...But YES!!!! I equate ALL anonymous posters, and their posts, as just so much junk to get through while looking for real answers from real people.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 8/23/08 7:42pm
Msg #261503

Anonymous is one thing...but Sue has never

posted "junk" as you call it - she's one of the most knowledgeable people here...and she doesn't need to link her name for you to know that - just go back and read her postings...search for what she has posted...read the information she's shared with everyone here...you'll see for yourself...

Unfortunately, Les, I think you shot the gun without aiming on this one...a very dangerous and foolish maneuver.

Reply by Les_CO on 8/23/08 8:05pm
Msg #261508

Re: Anonymous is one thing...but Sue has never/Linda

You could be right....I may, when I get the time ,peruse all of the anonymous posts here to see in there is anything of interest to be gleaned from them. I have said... that upon the word of others less shy, I may have been mistaken about Sue! But how was I, or anyone that has never had lunch with her to know? Should we question posts from phantoms, that claim contrary to the norm, or should we just accept these writings as gosple?
I have read your posts here and on other boards with interest, and thanks for contributing.
I have always been somewhat foolish, but never very dangerous.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 8/25/08 2:26am
Msg #261649

Re: mercy, mercy me

I also think you're making too much out of the "unlinked" issue, which I consider different from anonymous. Obviously, I prefer not to link to my profile, also. It has nothing to do with trying to be anonymous and quite a few who post here also know who I am. I'm a premier member here for two reasons only: 1) to get work and have my profile read by potential clients and 2) to support this board. I don't give a rat's patootie how many other notaries view my profile. I want to know how many potential clients view it. Simple as that. And if someone is all that interested, it isn't that hard to find me. I've given out enough information over the years to make it pretty clear, I think. I'm just using myself as an example here to make a point, obviously, I hope.

I don't remember Calinotary's exact words, but I agree that I feel I "know" most of the people who have been posting here for many years, even if only by reputation. Having read their posts for all that time tells me more about them than knowing their real name - which I do for many of those you would call "anonymous", including him. Doesn't matter. The key is that we always post using the SAME handle, not hiding behind a bunch of different names so that no one can make a connection from post to post. I think that makes a big difference.

Just my two cents...

Reply by Henry Davidson on 8/23/08 8:53am
Msg #261391

Les U d Man. Other 19 need to wake up!

LES...U d Man...Finally someone with a clear head...

@WDMD- Your in a little country all by yourself. MD is totally different. Most companies I am in contact with wont even take biz in MD

@Brenda TX- If you think/get $20 per even at 2000 deals per month only means you will lose about 25k per month...maybe more depending on your payroll and technology.


PS- What am I gaining from being in here? I dont need more notaries and no one in here as volume for me so what is it besides to add a professional opinion and add some value.

Id still really like to know what this forum thinks is an acceptable fee for referring business to someone. A fee that will cover your costs...at least maybe? Beuler ...Beuler..

Bring it home people...we are almost there.

Reply by jba/fl on 8/23/08 9:45am
Msg #261400

Re: Les U d Man. Other 19 need to wake up!

I can see that your business must be all screwed up - oh, wait - that was established already. Your orders must be screwed up too, you can't even keep names straight when they are right in front of you to refer to.

Highly amusing thread - your posts have really added no value and your professional opinions are just that: opinions. Everyone has one, and they are not a one size fits all... As for referal fees: it is your business, you need to establish your own guidelines, blah, blah,blah, depending upon your level of greed and avarice. No one can do that for you...you are the king of your own domain. You rise and fall on your own decisions, even if you take the advice of others. Sue summed it up nicely - you failed to see her advice: I don't care what others think, etc. You are very dense, more than HDF.

Reply by WDMD on 8/23/08 10:19am
Msg #261409

Re: Les U d Man. Other 19 need to wake up!

" If you think/get $20 per even at 2000 deals per month only means you will lose about 25k per month...maybe more depending on your payroll and technology."


How much does it cost to run a SS? I asked a friend of mine who owns a convience store and he told me his monthly costs are around $15000. And he has to buy inventory, pay utilities, purchase equipment, pay employees, pay rent, etc.

So if, using your example, someone gets $20/per signing at 2000 deals a month that is $40000/per month. And you would still lose 25k per month? How is that possible? Are you saying you pay out $65000 a month?

Reply by jba/fl on 8/23/08 10:42am
Msg #261415

he wishes....snort, snort n/m

Reply by Henry Davidson on 8/23/08 5:26pm
Msg #261474

Costs

Why dont u try and step out of your box and figure out how many people it will take to dispatch and follow up on 2000 closings per month....then you can estimate you payroll, rent, phone, insurance etc.....have fun..! Ill review it for you before you commit your own CASH to make it happen...How does it fell out there on that limb?

Business 101....class has begun.

Reply by CaliNotary on 8/23/08 5:47pm
Msg #261479

Re: Costs

"Business 101....class has begun."

2000 closings a month, you keep $25 per closing, that equals $50,000 per month.

6 employees making $5,000 a month equals $30,000 a month. 6 employees would average less than 17 closings per day in a 5 day work week.

$5,000 should be more than enough to cover rent, insurance and utilities.

That leaves $15,000 a month for the owner, after notaries, employees, and office expenses are paid.

Of course I just pulled these figures out of my a$$. In reality I'm sure you're not paying your employees anywhere near $5,000 per month, nor do I think you have that many employees. Nor do you I think your rent and utilities come anywhere near $5,000 a month. And I know you keep way more than $25 per closing.

So add it all up and what's the answer? That you're a cheap and greedy man who underpays his notaries.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 8/23/08 7:50pm
Msg #261504

Clap, clap...

Well done, Cali - I guess he doesn't realize that some here have already passed Business 101 and are into the graduate level...

Reply by Les_CO on 8/23/08 8:59pm
Msg #261512

Re: Clap, clap...

Business 101? Well... 2000 closings may as well be 2 million. Try punching in like 400 to 600, if you're very lucky.