Posted by JanetK_CA on 8/31/08 11:11pm
Msg #262842
What's wrong with this picture?
Over the last several days there have been two very long, interesting threads which illustrate different sides of a similar issue - specifically dealing with copies of a person's driver license. First, I read a very long discussion about how important many feel it is, for good customer service etc., for a notary to have a backup plan when it comes to retrieving a photocopy of a borrower's ID. The suggestions ranged from carrying a digital camera and portable printer to just using one's cell phone.
Not two days later, Harry brings up the subject of members providing a photocopy of their photo ID and suddenly the table has turned. The overwhelming majority were ardently opposed to providing their ID -- in most cases, it seemed -- "to anyone".
Am I the only one who sees a disconnect here? I've not made any effort to match up names on one list with the other because it's not my point to put any individual(s) on the spot, and maybe there aren't any that match. BUT............. I realize there are differences (primarily that we aren't trying to borrow money from Harry!) However, I can't help but feel there's a touch of hypocrisy going on here and thought it might be interesting to examine this issue from another perspective. 
[In the interest of full disclosure, I should probably admit that I, too, would probably not send a photocopy of my DL to any signing service or hiring entity (unless it was for a full-time job). And about 6 moths ago, I DID provide a photocopy of my ID to Harry in order to qualify for the 6-hour training class (provided free to Premier Members) required to renew my CA notary commission. I didn't give it a second thought at the time.]
| Reply by BarbaraL_CA on 8/31/08 11:18pm
Msg #262844
I think it all boils down to trust and regulations. I also sent Harry my ID for the course but I crossed out the dl number.
When a person applies for a loan the lending institution needs to have a copy of the dl. I personally think it shoud be the responsibility of the lending institution to obtain the required dl copy. Afterall, they're the ones that need it, not us!
| Reply by linda/ca on 8/31/08 11:58pm
Msg #262847
Barbara wrote: "I personally think it shoud be the responsibility of the lending institution to obtain the required dl copy. Afterall, they're the ones that need it, not us!"
I agree, Barbara. I will do it out of a courtesy, however, not under the threat that my fee will be deducted as some mentioned. That is absurd.
| Reply by JanetK_CA on 9/1/08 12:27am
Msg #262849
Couldn't agree more with both of you! n/m
| Reply by Lee/AR on 9/1/08 6:05am
Msg #262854
Re: Couldn't agree more with both of you!
My viewpoint on DL copy is simply one of a 'need to know' basis. Who needs to know... and why? Lenders are complying with Federal Law--knowing to whom they are loaning money & being able to prove they know. (The 'how' is an oft-debated subject...I'm not going there in this post.)
SS, even NR are...what? (Never had a TC ask) Why do they 'need to know'? As we all must be 'properly identified' in order to receive a Notary commission from our respective states, having said Commission means we have been properly ID'd, plus it also proves the we are, in fact, a Notary with an unexpired commission. A DL won't do that.
| Reply by PAW on 9/1/08 7:02am
Msg #262858
>>> I can't help but feel there's a touch of hypocrisy going on here <<<
No hypocrisy at all. Under federal regulations a financial institution is required to identify the person(s) opening a new account. The process and documentation required must be identified in the institutions CIP (Consumer Identification Procedures). Other than law enforcement, there is no other organization that can mandate that a copy of a person's personal or financial identification ("private" information) be provided.
So, collecting copies of a D/L for the purpose of obtaining a loan, is a far cry from providing a copy for "security" to a signing service or internet provider or public bulletin board. Once you are a victim if identity theft, you boarder on paranoia when it comes to freely giving out your personal identifying information. Heck, I don't even let Wal-Mart copy my D/L number. I've filed a complaint with their management on the practice of requiring this information to receive a refund, even with a receipt. But that's a different issue.
| Reply by raiderpup on 9/1/08 10:50am
Msg #262865
I agree with you, PAW. Providing proper ID for opening new accounts for a financial instution is one thing but having to provide my DL info to a SS or anyone outside of law enforcement is another. I provided all of that info to the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania when I was duly sworn as a notary and my commission which was issued by them should be all I need to provide. They can contact the state to verify my commission and see I am in good standing with the state.
| Reply by parkerc/ME on 9/1/08 9:24am
Msg #262860
Agree with most of the above comments. In a good portion of my signings, the instructions have not required that I send the SS or TC a copy of the borrower’s DL, so I don’t. (Maybe the borrower already provided them a copy, who knows?) However, after having heard some of the comments on this forum about SS’s and TC’s requiring copies of DL but not including that requirement in their instructions, I go ahead and take a digital photo of the license, just in case (as long as the borrower agrees). If I don’t hear back from the TC or SS within a week requesting a DL copy, I just delete it from my camera. I have provided a photocopy of my DL to a few TC’s/SS’s if they asked for it upon my first signing with them, but only after I’ve blacked out the DL #, birthdate, and height, weight, hair, and eyes data and written below it “The above document has been redacted for identity security purposes” (I think I picked up that valuable piece of info on this forum!). But, like Lee, agree with the “need to know”. There’s no money/funds changing hands here. There’s nothing on a driver’s license that’s needed by NR except maybe a picture and name, and putting a picture on the site and providing a copy of our commission should be plenty. (There! I’ve done my post for the day . . week…month….whatever!)
| Reply by 101livescan on 9/1/08 9:38am
Msg #262861
My own experience is that most of the big lenders already have the drivers license copies by the time I show up for the signing. A couple of loans I applied for, the lender asked for a copy of my drivers license at the time I applied, and I sent it in with tax returns and other backup information. When I signed borrowers at the local title/escrow offices, the escrow officer required copies of the drivers licenses for their escrow files. I think it is highly inappropriate for the SS to also require a copy, they are third party...why would they need it....we as notaries are all about preventing ID theft. I have taken photos of drivers licenses with my digital camera for lenders and title and escrow and then deleted it from my camera as soon as it is transmitted....I don't want the liability of a borrower coming back on me because I took a copy of their DL and something occurred where they might want to hold me accountable. I've had a borrower call me up and ask me if I took his Drivers License with me when I left, because he couldn't find it after I left. HA! I always make sure they put their licenses back in their wallets after I am done reviewing/recording the required information in my journal.
| Reply by Stamper_WI on 9/1/08 11:03am
Msg #262866
State laws are pretty clear on this issue as well, at least in WI. Most TC's I have worked with locally do keep a copy of the DL in their file. last year it paid off on one refi when they produced a copy of a DL on a refi that showed the true owners information with the cousins picture. The cousing refird the home and it went into foreclosure. The TC, not countrywide had the copy.
How did she do it? Took a recent water bill of the owner to the DOT and said she lost her license. The bill showed proff of residence as far as the DOT was concerned.
| Reply by JanetK_CA on 9/2/08 10:00pm
Msg #262999
Maybe it's a California thing...
<<My own experience is that most of the big lenders already have the drivers license copies by the time I show up for the signing.>>
That's been my experience, too. Seems like I most often get requests for ID copies for out of state properties, but I haven't really paid that close attention. Personally, I prefer to avoid the potential liability as much as possible, too. And I feel it should be taken care of well before documents are drawn. In a perfect world... Ah, well -- we can dream, can't we?
| Reply by MW/VA on 9/1/08 12:05pm
Msg #262869
This has become a touchy subject almost everywhere--copies of ID & the fear of identify theft.
As a signing agent, I have always seen it as part of my job to get copies of the borrowers ID.
I do point out to them that I have BCG & their information is safe with me. Providing copies of the ID is a big part of preventing fraud by verifying the identity of the signers. I would never feel comfortable using a digitial camera or cell phone to copy the ID. I have heard of that being done by store clerks, taking pictures of people's credit cards, etc. without their being aware of it (factual here, not rumor). I think Harry's request about ID was for the same purposes. He had posted about some recent fraudulent activity with a facsimile of a NR stamp. If providing a copy of my ID is to help prevent fraud I don't have an issue with it.
I will not sent it to ss or anyone else when signing up for a database, because I don't know what the info. is used for. Here in VA the D/L used to be the SS#. I now have a different # on my D/L. I agree, I provided all that information when I got my Commission, and also for the background check. Unfortunately, neither of those are picture ID's, and could be used by almost anyone. Just my 2 cents worth.
| Reply by Lee/AR on 9/1/08 12:52pm
Msg #262871
Understand the lack of a photo on Commission, however, what's an SS or NR going to do with it? I'll never meet them face-to-face for them to check if my DL matches my mug. Would having a copy of a DL have prevented the fraudulent activity with a dummied up copy of a NR stamp? If so, how? The logic and the 'need' just escape me....
As my Mom used to say when I wanted to 'follow the crowd' ... if your friends jumped off a bridge, would you do it, too? My answer: Depends upon why they are jumping off the bridge.
| Reply by jojo_MN on 9/1/08 12:55pm
Msg #262872
No hypocrisy on my part.
I make copies of the drivers license because the lender and/or title company is requiring it for identity reasons, Patriot act, etc.
I will not hand it out to a website owner (no offense to Harry, at all). I personally was a victim of iidentiy theft seven years ago.
When I applied for my notary license (in MN, WI and IA), I had to prove my identity. I also had to when I got my loan closers license. That should be enough for Notary Rotary. I don't have any problem sending him copies of all certifications and licenses.
Most of the borrowers; however, haven't had the background checks, etc. before we walk into their homes or other disignated meeting place. Most of the lenders or title companies don't ever even meet the borrowers, so there is no question that they should be asking for proof of who they are.
| Reply by Paul2_FL on 9/1/08 1:02pm
Msg #262873
Re: No hypocrisy on my part.
I agree wholeheartly with both you and Lee. Harry needs to resolve this ASAP because, as he stated previously, this Identity Verification will be part of the NRCI rating process which already has a number of members ticked off.
| Reply by LynnNC on 9/1/08 4:57pm
Msg #262892
I haven't found the message where Harry brought up the subject of members providing a photocopy of their photo ID. What number is it?
| Reply by SheilaSJCA on 9/1/08 5:48pm
Msg #262893
It is message #262373 n/m
| Reply by LynnNC on 9/2/08 10:43am
Msg #262920
Re: It is message #262373
There is a problem with Harry's draft Declatration of Identity below...we cannot complete a jurat for OWN declaration! We would have to have another notary complete the jurat. In NC, we also cannot notarize our certification of something.
DECLARATION OF IDENTITY
This affidavit is being provided to Notary Rotary as proof of my identity and compliance with Notary Rotary's one-listing-per-user policy.
Under penalty of perjury, I declare that my legal name is [Your Name Here] and that I am a duly commissioned notary public in the [Your Jurisdiction].
I further declare that, to the best of my knowledge and intentions, I have a single notary profile on Notary Rotary with a user name of [User Name]. It is my intent to submit this declaration, along with a copy of the identification I provided to the notary public below as proof of my identity, to Notary Rotary for the purpose of certifying my listing.
_________________________
Signature
_________________
Date
JURAT
State/Commonwealth of []
County of __________________
[State-specific language]
_________________________
Notary Signature
(seal)
| Reply by Linda_H/FL on 9/2/08 12:11pm
Msg #262929
The form is fine...of *course* we'd need another
notary to complete the jurat - nowhere does it ask the notary to notarize their own signature.
| Reply by LynnNC on 9/2/08 12:34pm
Msg #262931
You are right! n/m
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