Posted by JAM/CA on 8/15/08 2:31pm
Msg #260214

Would you notarize?

A gentleman asked me to notarize his signature on a document. He showed me his "current" California drivers license. It had the correct photo, physical description, issued March 2008, expires March 2013, birthdate. So what's the problem? On the signatue line of his drivers license he signed it "Without Prejudice". No signature what so ever, just "without prejudice".

He had no other form of I.D. This was for a Deed and I refused to notarize. I could not compare his signature. He did not want to use Credible Witnesses. No passport.

I called the SOS, the DMV and (I know) the NNA. The SOS said call an attorney, the NNA said, don't notarize, the DMV said, "If he said that's his signature, then that's his signature, there is nothing we can do." B.S.

Seems this comes from "Common Law v. Statutory Jurisdiction". However; from what I've read, you put "Without Prejudice" above your signature.

I found this excerpt from: http://www.buildfreedom.com/tl/wua13.shtml

Are there attorneys that could elaborate on this and any way to accept something like this?

Reply by Becca_FL on 8/15/08 3:02pm
Msg #260223

Good question. Here's what I found on the subject

http://autarchic.tripod.com/dixon/chapter6.html

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-1636.html

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 8/15/08 3:34pm
Msg #260231

What's interesting is that the Calif. handbook says nothing about the ID having to have the person's signature. However they do have to sign their name to your journal so I would assume his name isn't "Without Prejudice" He sounds like a wanna be "survivalist" type person, but doesn't know how to properly fight the system.

Normally "without Prejudice" is signed before their name then they do sign their name after it however. In my experience, living out in the boonies, I have run across this a few times. Sometimes they use "under duress', because they are protesting their having to sign it. But they still have their signature on the ID, so it gives me something to compare. Years ago, a member of my gun club told me to sign my concealed carry permit that way and in fact all my government issued documents , but my ex-wife was a sheriffs' dispatcher and when a cop runs across something like that, it sends up a red flag. Of course, that was many years ago, so I just sign like a regular person. Don't want to light up any red lights.

But I digress. My attorney has always advised me that if what I am being ask to do as a notary sounds hinky, don't do it. So if something just doesn't seem right, I find an excuse not to do it. (Damn, I forgot my journal ect.) even if everything else appears in order.

Reply by JAM/CA on 8/15/08 3:40pm
Msg #260232

I love your response Glenn/Thank you n/m

Reply by John_NorCal on 8/15/08 4:08pm
Msg #260240

Re: I love your response Glenn/Thank you

I'm with Glenn on this, this guy does sound like a wannabe survivalist. The same type who claims that the government has no legal right to collect taxes, the power to collect was only a temporary power, etc, etc, etc. I'm a little more hard nosed than to say that I forgot something so I can't notarize, personally I would just say no and be on my way. I think you definetly made the right choice by not notarizing. It takes all kinds in this world doesn't it!

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 8/15/08 4:14pm
Msg #260241

Re: I love your response Glenn/Thank you

Well, normally I will just say no also. But the Calif handbook says nothing about a signature on the ID, but the handbook also says that if everything is in order, we can't refuse to notarize. This is one of those grey areas, so I give a grey excuse ....... I am mellowing in my old age, I guess.

Reply by John_NorCal on 8/15/08 4:17pm
Msg #260242

Re: I love your response Glenn/Thank you

**I am mellowing in my old age, I guess. **

And I'm getting more obstinate I guess! lol.

Reply by MeganC/CA on 8/15/08 4:24pm
Msg #260244

Re: I love your response Glenn/Thank you

"A United States military identification card with the required photograph, description of
the person, signature of the person, and an identifying number." (Page 11)

While only the military ID section specifically notes a signature, I would assume it's common knowledge that all the other acceptable paper IDs also have a signature along with a photo, physical description, and serial number, and expiration date...

But hey, I don't even have my commission paperwork yet...soooooo I guess it's just my two cents.

I wouldn't notarize it.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 8/15/08 4:29pm
Msg #260246

Good Catch

There is that word: Assume. As you know, you can assume anything. Can get you in big trouble.

Reply by MichiganAl on 8/15/08 11:11pm
Msg #260279

If Daniel Boone wants to be a survivalist, then fine.

Let him survive without the notarization.

Reply by janCA on 8/15/08 4:26pm
Msg #260245

My handbook does.

Glenn, unless your interpretation of the handbook is different than mine, it does state that the ID has to have the signature of the person. Page 10, Section A, subsection 3. "Other California-approved id card, consisting of any one of the following provided that it also contans a photograph, description of the person, signature of the person and identifying number. What am I not understanding here.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 8/15/08 4:49pm
Msg #260251

Re: My handbook does.

Yeah I know, but if you notice on page 10 under section a:

Number 1 says nothing about a signature on a driver license. Number 2 says nothing about a signarute on a passport. Only when you get to 3 under other Cal approved ID's does it mention a signature. On 3 a,b,c no signature is mentioned. d mentions a signature and e doesn't mention a signature. The original post concerned a California Driver License.

I know this is splitting hairs, but I guess I got that way working as management for a company who's employees were covered by a union contract and daily life was governed by things as small as where the comma was in a sentence. Sure glad I retired from that while I was still alive ... Cheers ....

Reply by MikeC/NY on 8/15/08 4:30pm
Msg #260247

I'm not an attorney, but the first question I'd ask is whether you need to match his signature in order to properly ID him. A person's signature is whatever he or she wants it to be - look at the undecipherable scrawl so many people use to sign documents.

That said, this guy is apparently not too bright - he was supposed to sign it and add "without prejudice", not sign it just using those words. I think what you've got is a driver's license that wasn't actually signed, but that's just personal opinion...

If the DMV doesn't care, CA notary law doesn't require that you match a signature on the ID, and all other required elements are present, is there really a problem? Do CA notaries have the authority to add ID requirements beyond what state notary law requires? Here in NY we are only required to be "reasonably certain" of ID, which leaves us a lot of wiggle room - do you have that option?

Reply by ct on 8/16/08 10:09am
Msg #260303

I'm in Ca..only ran into something like this once..the guy signed with a star..it was on his drivers license too.. I notarized his star..and he signed all the docs with a star..don't know how that one flew but I did leave a little note to title...there are some strange characters out here...

Reply by claudine osborne on 8/17/08 11:00pm
Msg #260428

Is this guy in Ohio? We have one here the next town over..Huge hand painted signs all over his house, yard and vehicles! All of them talk about anti governement etc..Funny thing is they writing is so small, you really cannot read it!

Reply by claudine osborne on 8/17/08 11:01pm
Msg #260429

Is this guy in Ohio? We have one here the next town over..Huge hand painted signs all over his house, yard and vehicles! All of them talk about anti governement etc..Funny thing is they writing is so small, you really cannot read it!

Reply by LynnNC on 8/18/08 9:44am
Msg #260441

Signs with a star...only in CA! n/m

Reply by MichiganAl on 8/19/08 12:10am
Msg #260550

I had a guy who signed by drawing a horse pulling a cart. Coolest signature I'd ever seen. Had something to do with his family heritage. Matched his driver's license. Good enough for me.

Reply by jba/fl on 8/19/08 1:09am
Msg #260552

That's a cool one Al...I've had shooting stars, many diff

symbols and, of course, chicken scratch. Does it match ID? All the time...mmine have always been legit and I am watching them consistently to see that it is done the same way w/above reasonable match and execution speed, which I would expect a forger to be more careful and not so speedy. Beyond reasonable doubt....what is required and necessary.

This world is a great jumble of stories....I liked that your's Al was reflective of their history. Very interesting...wish I could have seen that one.