Posted by SheilaSJCA on 8/29/08 2:22pm
Msg #262592
profiles that belong to signing services
Do you think there should be any restrictions in having a profile if you are:
An individual that owns a signing service, (whether nationwide or statewide) and also works as a signing agent/notary themselves.
What if they do not mention they have a SS, in their profile, but their linked website (linked in the profile) clearly states this?
I thought Harry mentioned something recently about SS having profiles, but I cannot find it. I searched with no luck. If you know the message # it was posted in, please post it now.
| Reply by Dave_CA on 8/29/08 3:24pm
Msg #262611
I don't know the message # but I have one listed in my area and planned to send Harry a message.
I'll wait and see what develops here first.
| Reply by MikeC/NY on 8/29/08 8:15pm
Msg #262660
"Do you think there should be any restrictions in having a profile if you are:
An individual that owns a signing service, (whether nationwide or statewide) and also works as a signing agent/notary themselves."
As long as they're doing signings also, why should it matter?
| Reply by SheilaSJCA on 8/29/08 10:04pm
Msg #262670
...Ok, let me ask it this way.... do you think they should be able to link to their SS website or mention their SS website in their profile?
| Reply by MikeC/NY on 8/29/08 10:30pm
Msg #262673
Actually, that's pretty much fair game. As long as they don't promote their SS in forum posts, they're not breaking any rules. If they're actively doing signings on their own, I don't understand why it should be a problem.
| Reply by SheilaSJCA on 8/29/08 10:55pm
Msg #262676
Because the Notary profiles are supposed to be just that- profiles of notaries, not companies that find notaries.
They are already allowed to have free company listings- why should they also be allowed (If they are also plugging their pay service in their notary profile )to come up in direct searches for notaries.
| Reply by ReneeK_MI on 8/30/08 7:44am
Msg #262696
My BIG problem with this is ...
...that it is (typically) a misrepresentation. There are those that fly under the radar (they're SS's that only present themselves as an individual person).
I have NO BEEF against anyone BEING a SS, against anyone doing whatever they can legally/morally do to make a living, I have plenty of clients who are SS's and even consider a couple of them to be casual friends - that's not the point.
The point is - I pay green money to be in a database of SIGNING AGENTS, here and on the other lists. I am NOT on lists of Signing SERVICES - meaning, I am not attempting to solicit in their venues, and I do not want them soliciting in MINE.
When my client decides to use a SA list to select someone from - they have made the CHOICE to hand-select an individual. When that list is peppered with SS's - usually undetectably by their profiles - it is a misrepresentation. If the INDIVIDUAL person that posts the profile happens to be Certified, or BGC'd, or has all 10 bars or WHATEVER - but is actually a SS, that is going to farm out the signing to someone THEY select, it is MISREPRESENTATION and it is IMHO an unfair infringement on my ability to market my individual credentials.
I also love how the math on the number of signings done - I should be counting the 10,000 plus that I did as an employee, instead of limiting my count to those done as an NSA?
I wonder what would happen if we NSA's were to list ourselves in the SS venues? What a mess that would make of those lists - do you see my point? Clients who make the CHOICE to seek out a SS would find how much value in a list like that?
Fries my cookies =O
| Reply by JanetK_CA on 8/30/08 6:19pm
Msg #262766
The key issue!
Overall, I have mixed feelings about this, but I think you nailed one of the key issues. Most of us advertise here (and on other boards) with the idea that hiring entities (whether they be ss's or tc's), can contact us directly. Misrepresentation is an ethical issue that shouldn't be taken lightly.
If I was a working for a company that was looking for an SA, I wouldn't be happy to find out that the assignment had been farmed off to a third party. That may be why most people are hesitant to take a referral to another notary when I've had to turn down assignments. [BTW, for the record, I've never even considered taking a referral fee for recommending another notary.] They usually want to go back to the source to check them out themselves. (I'm talking mostly about potentially new clients that find me on a directory.)
| Reply by BrendaTx on 8/30/08 8:28am
Msg #262701
I am in favor of not having signing services listed as signing services on NR. This is a notary database, not a signing service database.
I don't know how that can be policed effectively, though.
I like what Renee' said, "I wonder what would happen if we NSA's were to list ourselves in the SS venues? What a mess that would make of those lists - do you see my point? Clients who make the CHOICE to seek out a SS would find how much value in a list like that? Fries my cookies =O"
It would be nice if SSs could get a community of their own, wouldn't it?
What about the "cafe"? Did that not work either? Wait...didn't I hear that SSs began to get disgruntled because title companies were able to be members of the cafe just like SSs? That TCs began to have access to notary databases SSs were PAYING for? That made me laugh when a member of the cafe SS folks told me that. Scummy TCs developed their own SS arm and began offering the same lowball offerings that the SSs did. "Not fair!" That's what the members of the cafe said. Ha. Paybacks are heck.
It never crossed their mind that the database they were members of and paid plenty of money for would make their clients their own competition. (Sounds so familiar, doesn't it?)
So, here they are back at NR again doing the same to us. If it weren't for notary databases such as NR, signing services couldn't be as effective in taking business away from notaries.
Perhaps signing services haven't figured out how to become organized into communities because they cannot trust each other to cuss and discuss among themselves. Some signing services cannot understand boundaries and getting beyond the sense of entitlement they feel to have a piece of all the work that goes on around them....so they come here...because there's no place else for them to go...and they want to figure out schemes to make notaries hand over clients.
Therefore, they have their "referral" offerings. Pimping this model is not new. It's been tried by AnnieMae (as I recall), and a couple of failed SSs. (Remember Paul from SigningZ? Andy? They tried this if I remember correctly.) Notaries are NOT completely stupid and they see that there is NO way to know if the SSs will give them their referral fees...so, the model hasn't been successful as far as I can tell....anywhere...by anyone.
Let the SSs list as notaries. Not as SSs. As soon as they are reported and verified for listing they are an SS, they lose their right to be listed. That's how I'd love to see this handled. They've got their place on SC. Let them pay for a listing. "What??? Pay????" That would chap their hide.
| Reply by Renee Kovacs on 8/30/08 9:00am
Msg #262707
But letting a SS list as an SA ...
doesn't counter the misrepresentation issue (ok, it's MY issue!).
Say the client selects an NSA (under-the-radar SS) BECAUSE that listing states that the individual is Certified, has a BGC, experience, Premium listing, presents well, etc. Each of those criteria are hard-earned or PAID for, and for good reason.
Now, that individual who may/may not actually be performing as an NSA, they can be an 'under-the-radar' SS. THEY snag the client with those credentials, but then toss off the signing to someone ELSE to perform. That completely negates the client's choice, and completely devalues the hard-earned or PAID for criteria of those like me, bona-fide individual SA's. Not to mention what it does for our industry.
| Reply by ReneeK_MI on 8/30/08 9:02am
Msg #262708
I guess what I'm saying is...
I don't think it should be, that you can have it both ways. As far as policing - all it takes is a confirmation or invoice from that 'hybrid' to be sent in from the NSA contracted. There - you ARE a SS.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 8/30/08 9:47am
Msg #262712
Renee, I agree with everything you say...
I'm just thinking of how difficult it would be for anyone or any company (such as NR) to keep liars off the database even if they wanted to or had strict rules against it.
Liars are liars are liars. You cannot instill morals in a dedicated liar. Rules are for moral people. Without morals, rules mean nothing. You can't police liars or you'll do nothing but that all day long in this business. However, you can easier prohibit them from listing a signing service in the notary database.
I wrote five more paragraphs but decided the point is what I have stated above. Anecdotal evidence runs thick over this board's past two week history. No need to rehash it. 
| Reply by Dave_CA on 8/30/08 10:30am
Msg #262719
I agree but
I agree with everything Renee is saying and much of what Brenda is saying but it is really not that hard to discover a signing service. If you look at the profile and then follow the link to their web site it's pretty clear.
I don't expect NR has the time to police this but the individual NSA probably has the time  and the motivation to look at their competition and report abuse.
This assumes that it is determined to be against the rules...
| Reply by SheilaSJCA on 8/30/08 3:36pm
Msg #262753
Didn't Harry mention something about this recently?
I thought I saw a post by Harry this past week or so, (since the NCRI) that said something about no signing services are to have profiles, but I couldn't find it. Maybe I read something wrong, but I was hoping some one else would recall it too.
| Reply by linda/ca on 8/31/08 2:37am
Msg #262786
Re: Didn't Harry mention something about this recently?
Signing Services should not be allowed to have a profile period. Rule should still apply if they act as a NSA, they will still farm out the work, business as usual. Check out Zip Code #22801 and you will find a Title company in the #1 spot. I noticed this as I checked to see why someone was thanking Harry for the new grading system. I could not believe they were thanking Harry for anything...I would not be happy about this! I don't see how anyone else can get any business on a list that has a SS/TC in the number one position. Harry must have known as they payed for premier status. Guess I am missing something here!
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