Posted by Kathryn on 12/22/08 1:31pm
Msg #272594

Back dating.

If I closed a loan a few days ago that is supposed to fund tommorrow and the loan officer left out the deed of trust and few other docs accidentally.... am I allowed to have the borrowers date the date of the closing and they want me to date the DOT for that day also. Is that wrong. Thanks.

Reply by parkerc/ME on 12/22/08 1:40pm
Msg #272596

Last time lender discovered 3 days later that they needed a deed of trust signed and forgot to include it and most of the package had to be redone because I refused to backdate a deed of trust as they wanted.

Reply by CaliNotary on 12/22/08 2:17pm
Msg #272598

How did you guys not notice the DOT was missing? That's a pretty glaring omission.

And to the original poster, no, you cannot backdate your notarization.

Reply by parkerc/ME on 12/22/08 4:12pm
Msg #272617

No omission on my part. Sorry, it wasn't a DOT. It was a warranty deed. There was nothing to indicate to me there should have been one included. Lender discovered after-the-fact that title was in wife's maiden name. . HELOC was for both and they needed a WD to deed it over to herself (new name) and new hubby.

Reply by parkerc/ME on 12/22/08 4:14pm
Msg #272619

PS. I always make sure a DOT (or equivalent Mortgage) is there . . for Maine property, it's a Mortgage instead of DOT.

Reply by Doris_CO on 12/22/08 6:41pm
Msg #272636

If the lender wants all the documents dated on the same date, then they need to redraw the docs correctly, especially if the Deed of Trust has the incorrect vesting.

Reply by MW/VA on 12/22/08 2:51pm
Msg #272604

Why would you do a closing without all the documents in the first place?
No, you cannot backdate and the whole package will probably need to be re-signed.
Critical docs are not "left out accidentally". Remember, it doesn't matter what they ask you to do, it is about what it is legal for you to do.

Reply by enotary/va on 12/22/08 5:26pm
Msg #272627

Why would you do a closing without all the documents in the first place?

It’s amazing to me how some people think it’s up to the notary to make sure all the documents are in the package. What about the lender or the title company?

I deal with 5 different title companies that deal with probably 15 different loan companies each. That’s a lot of different forms.

I had 5 signings last Friday, 4 signed 1 didn’t. Useless it’s a form like the HUD or RTC I don’t check to see if all the documents are there.

IMHO that’s not my job.

Reply by LKT/CA on 12/22/08 7:10pm
Msg #272640

<<<It’s amazing to me how some people think it’s up to the notary to make sure all the documents are in the package. What about the lender or the title company?>>>

Agreed

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 12/22/08 8:22pm
Msg #272647

I agree with Marilyn here...

We may not be responsible for making sure ALL the docs are in the package but we sure as heck better know we don't have a Mortgage or DOT!!

"I deal with 5 different title companies that deal with probably 15 different loan companies each. That’s a lot of different forms" Maybe so - but I'll bet you knew every package needed a security instrument (Mortgage, DOT, Mortgage Deed, whatever) - and if you know your job you know if you don't have one or not...

MHO

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 12/22/08 8:48pm
Msg #272649

Re: I agree with Marilyn here...

Absolutely. I mean, we're talking about a loan package here... any decent NSA should notice the ABSENCE of a DOT/mortgage document/etc.

While it's true that, as a notary, it's none of our business.... as a Signing Agent, it very well might be.

I mean, think of it this way: you can't have a glass of milk without the glass. You could have cow's milk or goat's milk or any other kind of milk... you could even flavor it with some Quik. None of that matters if you don't have the glass to put it in.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 12/22/08 3:20pm
Msg #272608

Uhm... no, you can't backdate. It's illegal and you could lose your commission. It's just that simple.

But what really got my attention, as the others noted is why didn't YOU notice that the DOT was missing? That's kind of a big deal.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 12/22/08 3:58pm
Msg #272615

So long as your notarizations are dated on the date...

that they actually sign the dox before you , the bwr may
date the dox on a earlier date
You may not backdate your notariztions, but the DOT may be
dated as of an earlier date. The date on teh note and DOT/Mtg should
be the same date.
Again, your notarization must be on the same date that the doc is signed
or acknowledged in your presence
Unclear from your post, exactly what is being requested of you

Reply by JanetLA on 12/22/08 5:26pm
Msg #272626

Bob Chicago? Really?

I don't think I would notarize the signatures for them if I am aware that it is a new document and I watch them sign today... Maybe (once again) Louisiana is different but if they are signing today I am not taking part in it. Sounds like dishonesty to me

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 12/22/08 5:46pm
Msg #272629

Don't know much about LA , except great food and jazz..

in "Nawlens", but as NPs we notarize signatures.
If doc is signed before you today and notarized by you
as of today, the date that appears on the doc (at least if dated
today or earlier) is of no consequence.
A deed of conveyance executed in conconjunciton with a mortgage/DOT
should be dated on or before the date of the mortgage/DOT, which should also
conform with the date shown on the obligation doc (eg. Note or HELOC loan agreement)
Again , our notarizaion date is the date actually signed or acknowledged in front
of us.

Reply by PAW on 12/22/08 7:30pm
Msg #272641

Besides that, an execution of a document can be signed ...

... and dated at any time before the signer appears to have their signature notarized. An acknowledgment, which most DOT's and mortgages have, do not require that the signer sign the instrument in the presence of the notary. Therefore, the signature could show any date prior to or the same date as, the notarization.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 12/22/08 8:54pm
Msg #272651

Re: Besides that, an execution of a document can be signed .

I think in Kathryn's case, it wasn't so much the signers' dates but, "they want me to date the DOT for that day also."

They wanted HER to backdate the notarization.

Reply by CaliNotary on 12/22/08 5:46pm
Msg #272630

That would be sticking your nose where it doesn't belong

It's not our place to determine the legality of the dates of the docs matching throughout the loan package. If you witness them sign the doc, that's all you need to notarize. The contents are none of your business as a notary.

Unless that happens to be one of those weird LA laws that completely differ from the way the rest of the country does things.

Reply by JanetLA on 12/22/08 9:06pm
Msg #272652

I guess (as usual) we in Louisiana are the weird ones

because we are concerned with the content of the documents and the dates, etc. We have so much more flexibility and authority, more like other states' paralegals I assume. But it is still interesting to hear that you all have such stringent rules about the notarizations, what you can and can't "stick your nose where it doesn't belong" and the UPL. We can prepare all the documents that we notarize, and we can recommend the forms, prepare new forms and tell our signers which form to use, why the one that have might not be appropriate and more. We have a fine line (UPL) to walk here and I am very careful. Wasn't trying to step on anyones toes because I certainly know that our Civil Laws are so very different from the rest of you and your laws.

Reply by JanetLA on 12/22/08 9:14pm
Msg #272653

PS- The contents of documents ARE our business in Louisiana

and we have much more responsibility for the same here. We can be held responsible for the content of a document that we notarize if it has been prepared improperly, even if we did not prepare it. When I read CaliNotary's post I was reminded about how different we are indeed. I wonder if all the other states have any responsibility for the content of the documents...We can charge any "reasonable fee" and can prepare wills and trusts for people and charge for our time. We have no state mandated fees, but we can charge for the time to research and prepare the proper forms. I know this might be boring to people, but my mortgage was cancelled tonight and I am bored myself, so I am reading all the posts that I have missed. Happy Holidays to you all

Reply by MikeC/NY on 12/22/08 8:07pm
Msg #272644

On an acknowledgment, I don't care WHEN they signed....

They could have signed it a year ago - doesn't matter to me because I don't have to see them sign it. I only care that the date of my notarization is the date they appeared before me to acknowledge that they did in fact sign it....

As a practical matter, the mortgage or DOT is usually signed in front of us, but it's certainly not a requirement. And the date on the document is immaterial to me. I've seen some argue that you can't notarize a document that is dated in the future, because the document "doesn't exist yet" - of course it exists, it's physically sitting there in front of you, it just doesn't take effect until some time in the future. We sign those types of documents all the time. Unless state law specifically prohibits notarizing a post-dated document, what's the problem?

Reply by sue_pa on 12/23/08 10:13am
Msg #272667

Bottom line is the company wants her to backdate ... it doesn't matter discussing what can and can't be done or why or why not. They want everything dated the day of the initial closing. Keeping a client like this happy and still calling you and doing what you know is the correct thing is one of the biggest challenges we all have.

No offense, but I'm guessing Kathryn doesn't know her job ... the LO doesn't let anything out of the package - that's not his job. As others have said, how can someone not notice the very basics are missing ... if not before, surely at the table.