Posted by Claudia_NJ on 12/12/08 5:42pm
Msg #271832

From the SS side

i'm having a hard time with a notary right now and I need some advice here.

I assigned a closing on 10-24. got invoiced on 11-17 and explained to the notary that we will get paid at the end of month from TC. 12-4 notary sends me 3 e-mails and two messages (nasty tone - threatening to post about me that I refuse to pay etc....). I explain check should arrive from TC any day and that it takes about 3 days for my turnaround (deposit/wait for check to clear/get payment processed.

Saturday 12-6 check arrives I inform the notary that I will be making the deposit on Monday 12-8 and will have check processed in 3 days. 12-11 e-mails and threats continue and today the same thing.... what the ****? i've even sent a copy of the confirmation from the bank.... this is alot more than I have ever had to do with anyone - am I nuts or is this notary being unreasonable?

I've been doing this a long time and i've been honest with this lady. i've never misrepresented myself nor my terms

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 12/12/08 6:36pm
Msg #271833

Why should the notary wait until you get paid???
What happens if the TC doesn't pay you on a signing that you have assigned to a notary? Do you still pay them?

if you are operating as a signing service you should have the capital to pay your notaries when the signing is completed.

It is not the notary's concern when the signing service gets paid from the TC.

Reply by Margaret_FL on 12/12/08 6:51pm
Msg #271834

I totally agree with Sylvia, if a company does not have the up front capital to operate, they need to get out of the business.

Reply by JanetLA on 12/12/08 8:01pm
Msg #271837

What did the confirmation say?

If my confirmation says 60 days and I agree to it, then we are good. Otherwise, I think 30 days is reasonable. I don't think a business should operate on the premise that the notary should wait for the company to be paid. If however, the notary agreed to 60 days, then shame on the notary.

Reply by PAW on 12/12/08 8:05pm
Msg #271838

"am I nuts or is this notary being unreasonable?"

IMO, you are being unreasonable! YOU and the Signing Agent have made a contract for services. Upon completion of those services, the signing agent has a reasonable expectation to be paid by YOU within 30 days. Signing agents are not interested and have no concern with your receivables as that is between you and your customers (your providers), not between you and your agents. If you don't have the capital to run your business and pay your agents, you shouldn't be in the business.

What would happen if, for some reason, the title company didn't pay you? Would you not pay your agent? Do you expect to wait for payment from the title company until they get paid by the lender? Now the shoe is on the other foot.

This is one of the top reasons many signing agents do not like nor are willing to work with signing services.

Reply by Sandra Clark on 12/12/08 8:33pm
Msg #271840

Re: "am I nuts or is this notary being unreasonable?"

Totally agree with PAW - reasonable wait of 30 days - after that, pay the Notary for the services rendered. The title companies that I work for pay usually within 10-15 days of the loan funding. If you're waiting 30+ days to get paid, you're not running your business - your clients are. Either get the capital or get out of the business.....


JMHO

Reply by MW/VA on 12/13/08 9:11am
Msg #271852

Re: "am I nuts or is this notary being unreasonable?"

Amen.

Reply by Maureen_nh on 12/12/08 8:46pm
Msg #271841

You never stated your mutually agreed upon terms.
I do think you might be at the receiving end of a whole bunch of very nervous notaries.
It does appear that you attempted to communicate, BUT it has gotten so that excuses are common and a lot of us have heard them all.
The point has been made that you shouldn't be waiting for receivables before you pay your contractors.
I really hope that you have made this plain before someone accepts an assignment from you.

Reply by Lee/AR on 12/12/08 10:05pm
Msg #271844

From the Notary side...

SS and Notary are both in business. We cannot wait 'til you get paid because our creditors won't wait until WE get paid. This is the only business I can think of where we routinely pay for supplies, gas, put in the time doing the job and then wait for 30 or more days to get paid by SS. And we've all heard the sorry excuses and, yes, do get quite nervous as we have an actual financial investment in 'doing the job' for you. Maybe you should look into a line of credit for your business and really start running a business instead of letting it run (ruin?) you.

Reply by MichiganAl on 12/13/08 2:21am
Msg #271845

I see some fault on both sides

As others have said, when you get paid from the t.c. shouldn't play into it. I feel that you should have the operating funds to meet your obligations. That said, if the notary invoiced you on 11/17, they've got no reason to be squawking less than three weeks later.

Do you have your payment schedule set forth either on a contract or on your order confirmations? If it's spelled out in either place, that should eliminate any disagreement.

Reply by Cari on 12/13/08 7:08am
Msg #271849

TOTALLY AGREE with everyone's comments....

....if you haven't get the cash to pay your notaries within at the very least 30 days, get out of business.

It's SS like yours that give other 'legit' SS a bad rap!

Reply by Jane Auld on 12/13/08 9:36am
Msg #271854

Re: TOTALLY AGREE with everyone's comments....

I am the notary. Closing was on 10/24. Terms were net 30. Then I started hearing "when I get paid"...It is now December 13. I am tired of chasing money. End of story. Thanks everyone for your support!!!!!!

Reply by HrdwrkrVA on 12/13/08 10:44am
Msg #271863

Re: TOTALLY AGREE with everyone's comments....

Jane, why do't you post the name of this SS? You may want to wait (understandably) until the check clears!

SS, what reputable TC pays in 60 days??? To reiterate everyone else: if we have to wait until YOU get paid(et al), why shouldn't we not go directlt to the TC where:
1 - we get paid faster
2- we get paid more
3 - we cut thru the BS?????

Reply by MichiganAl on 12/13/08 4:27pm
Msg #271881

Jane, I have two concerns

One, did you wait until 11/17 to invoice as Claudia said? If so, I think I'd be chilling until 30 days from that date. Two, I agree that terms are terms and when a SS get's paid by their t.c. is irrelevant, but at two weeks late wouldn't a gentle, less confrontational reminder be more appropriate?

Reply by goodgirl on 12/13/08 10:23am
Msg #271856

Excuses like yours are the reasons "experienced notaries" will not work for signing services.
I don't know what fee you promised this notary, but your payment polices dictate that you are a signing service who should look for $40 notaries who are just saving up extra money for a new purse or an I-Pod.
By the way...which signing service are you, so those of us who don't know who you are don't make the mistake of working for you.
And Jane...way to go! Get your money and don't work for this slow pay "I'm going to pay my own bills first" SS again.

Reply by goodgirl on 12/13/08 10:23am
Msg #271857

Excuses like yours are the reasons "experienced notaries" will not work for signing services.
I don't know what fee you promised this notary, but your payment polices dictate that you are a signing service who should look for $40 notaries who are just saving up extra money for a new purse or an I-Pod.
By the way...which signing service are you, so those of us who don't know who you are don't make the mistake of working for you.
And Jane...way to go! Get your money and don't work for this slow pay "I'm going to pay my own bills first" SS again.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 12/13/08 10:41am
Msg #271858

Let's see...you have a free listing here

and you advertise your agency there. Hmmmm.
Why are you not paying for advertising your SS under the SS Tab?
If you ask me, you are doing a disservice to the NSA's in your local area,
who use this site for direct work leads. Snatching business from their hands,
by advertising your statewide agency where local notaries ONLY should be advertising.

Reply by Les_CO on 12/13/08 11:09am
Msg #271865

1/ You need to renegotiate your payment schedule with the Title Company. They get paid at closing. I know it is more convenient for them to pay you once a month, but if you find yourself doing any kind of volume at all, you will be ‘loaning’ them thousands of dollars. You need to get paid weekly, or at least every two weeks.
2/ You are contracting with the Notaries to do a job for you. You must be able to pay them when they perform the service. This often requires thousands of dollars of ‘your’ money to be ‘out there’ while you wait to be paid from Title. If you don’t have this capital you should NOT be in this business.
3/ This is a risky, and often unprofitable business. You must have reserve capital. You will have ongoing overhead regardless of how many signings you get. You can easily (just at 2/3 signing a day) have $10,000.00 in capital out (say 80 signings at $125= $10,000) Say you charge Title $150 per, you make $2000 gross. After expenses you make probably nothing. You are risking $10 thousand, paying your phones, web site, postage, rent, utilities, stationary, working yourself, maybe paying a scheduler, and getting almost nothing in return. Plus you need some ‘reserve’ for printing/travel/notary fees, on no-shows or no-signs. If the Title company goes belly up, as many have, you must still pay all this, plus your notaries. A LOT of risk for little return, and very scary in today’s market. The more volume the greater the capital required, and the greater the risk. To actually make money at this I’d say you need all your equipment and supplies, plus at least $50,000 in reserve…that you are willing to risk…. and a LOT of experience.
From your post, I'd say that you should consider a different business.
JMO

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 12/13/08 4:23pm
Msg #271879

Why is taking so long for TC to pay?

The Title Company gets paid at closing. If the signing was on 10-24, it's assumed closing happened before the end of October, right? The TC should have wired or sent the notary fees immediately, but certainly no more than 14-15 days. There's no reason the TC should hold on to the money for 30 days or more.

Then you say the TC doesn't pay until the "end of the month" -- if that's that case, then why did it take 6 days to get to you?

Your terms with the notary are net30... which means you have to pay the notary within thirty days. If you don't have the capital to do that, then it's your problem, not the notary's. That's why some businesses utilize temporary lines of credit. I don't know that I would do it... but if it meant honoring my contracts with my notary's, I'd seriously consider weighing the benefits of a few dollars in interest to help maintain a good reputation versus gaining a rep for slow pay and looking like you have no idea how to run your business. Sadly... a lot of "signing services" fall in to the latter rather than the former.

That said, why did it take the notary several weeks to send an invoice? If terms are net30, an invoice should be generated and sent within 72 hours. There are many companies who pay net30 based on the invoice receipt date (trust me, I deal with this everyday!) rather than the date of service. Clearly, the notary isn't exactly on top of her billing practices, either.

Reply by Les_CO on 12/13/08 5:05pm
Msg #271883

Re: Why is taking so long for TC to pay?

I pretty much agree with your post…However…
Usually if you are a SS, and have some kind of working relationship with a Title Company, you will be doing more than one ‘closing’ a month for them.
Yes, they (the TC) get paid at ‘closing’. But if you are doing …say three or four signing/closings a day for them, you would not ‘invoice’ them on an ‘individual’ or ‘per closing’, or even a ‘daily’ basis. Perhaps a ‘weekly’ basis? (They all would prefer monthly) So say on Monday you bill them for the last weeks signings (say 15), they get your invoice, by Wednesday, if you’re lucky they cut a check Friday, most likely, the following Wednesday, you get the check maybe the following Friday, more likely Monday. You are now 14 days from the signing that your Notaries did on Monday of the week you are billing. You MUST have already sent these people their payment, if they expect to be paid timely, and they ALL do! These Title Companies are just NOT going to send you 90/120 checks a month. It’s VERY difficult to get them to accept weekly billing. They ALL want to send you ‘one’ check a month. You MUST have CAPITAL (which is always AT RISK) to be in this business.
It ain’t as easy as you think
Ask Sylvia, ask Tony, ask all those that are still here struggling to do this properly. And THANK them! For their helping us get work, and risking what we won’t, to stay in this business.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 12/13/08 5:27pm
Msg #271884

Re: Why is taking so long for TC to pay?

"Ask Sylvia, ask Tony, ask all those that are still here struggling to do this properly. And THANK them! For their helping us get work, and risking what we won’t, to stay in this business"


Thanks Les It has never happened, but if the day came when I didn't have the money in my business account (I keep business and personal banking separate) to pay a notary then I would pay out of my personal bank account rather than not pay a notary. My reputation means a lot to me. It amazes me that a signing service waits to get the check from the title company and then wait to make sure the check clears before paying a notary.
This sounds to me more like a signing agent who is "outsourcing" her work rather than a bona fide signing service. Does Claudia have a bona fide signing agent service? What is her signing service name and is she registered in the state of NJ as a business???
(No, Les, I know you don't have the answers to those questions - just thinking out loud)

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 12/13/08 6:02pm
Msg #271889

Bingo, Sylvia

"This sounds to me more like a signing agent who is "outsourcing" her work rather than a bona fide signing service."

I think that's exactly what this is - based upon my first instinct after reading the post and after doing some research. Seems that's happening a lot lately - I've gotten several calls from notaries asking me to do signings in my area - they turn out to be notaries or Signing Agents with no business affilitation....I don't accept those signings. Don't ask me why but it's a situation that just doesn't sit well with me.

Reply by Les_CO on 12/13/08 7:44pm
Msg #271891

Re: Bingo, Sylvia

I “outsource” some of my signings almost on a weekly basis. To me that means that if I can’t do the job I recommend someone (Yes, my competition!) that I know that has the competence, knowledge, and work ethic to do the job correctly. I do not try and “farm it out” and make a couple of bucks on the side. In my experience this policy has paid me dividends that are difficult to identify, but none the less are there and real. The Title Company, or SS scheduler usually says thanks for the recommendation, we’ll call you first next time. The ‘recommended’ notaries, although not asked do so, have done the same for me. I think this is called a win/win situation?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 12/13/08 8:13pm
Msg #271894

Re: Bingo, Sylvia...Les

I'm not talking about referring signings to another notary in the area because I'm not available - I do that anytime I can... I'm talking about calls I've gotten from other notaries for signings, and these notaries who are hundreds of miles away from me and the signing location - they're just playing SS on the side without the hassle of setting up as a SS.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 12/15/08 2:36am
Msg #271938

Re: Why is taking so long for TC to pay?

<<This sounds to me more like a signing agent who is "outsourcing" her work rather than a bona fide signing service. >>

That was the impression I got, too. And this is one of the key reasons that I choose to "refer" business I'm unable handle to others rather than outsource.

Reply by mobitary on 12/13/08 5:30pm
Msg #271886

I'm so glad to see so many good posts about this subject, Hope the newbies read them
I rarely post anything in this forum but this thread really got my attention, You are absolutely right at least most of you, The fact that the clients of the SS pay late or even do not pay has nothing to do with the obligation the SS has with the subcontractor, if they do not have the operating capital they should be out of business or go to Washington for a bail out, like the Banks do.
That's why I do not consider many of the SS's, legitimate businesses, they are mostly opportunistic
entities that broker the services of Notaries that decided not to market themselves directly to the principal sources. please don't shoot because I tell you the truth LOL

Reply by MW/VA on 12/13/08 5:35pm
Msg #271887

Since the ss put themselves in the middle of the transaction & make money from the notary, realize they are your bread & butter. Pay her what you owe her.

Reply by thnotary_NY on 12/13/08 6:22pm
Msg #271890

Seems all's quite on the eastern front.

Reply by Ilene C. Seidel on 12/14/08 6:24pm
Msg #271929

Your been most responsive and it seems the notary is paranoid. Don't use he/she again it's not worth the stress.

Reply by RJE/MI on 12/15/08 8:32am
Msg #271943

Re: From the Title Co. Side

I worked for 2 different title companies for a total of 15 years. One was statewide and one was nationwide and they both disbursed funds the same way. The Escrow Officer in charge of the closing killed out the file personally the day it disbursed. It didn’t matter if there were 30 closings in one day and the same vendor provided services on 15 of them.

As soon as the file closed the Escrow Officer assigned to the closing cut the checks to each individual for that file. If the same termite company was on 15 settlement statements that closed and disbursed that day they would get 15 different checks and they would get sent out that day. The title companies that I worked with did not wait 2 weeks or until the end of the month to cut the checks to the vendors on the settlement statements. That is why when doing a signing for a title company we get paid much quicker than a SS.

I believe it is easier on the title company, easier to prove payment when a file gets audited and I don’t believe a title company can hold funds that don’t and never did belong to them longer than the disbursement date.

Disbursing a file is different than paying the electric bill. The funds they receive from the lender/buyer/seller/borrower are not the title companies funds. They must disburse all of the funds the day of disbursement or face many problems come audit time.

My point of this post is to let the SS know that saying the they did not receive funds from the title company yet and that is why the NSA is not getting paid does not fly and I am sure the title company would not appreciate you using them as an excuse for you to not pay your bills. It may be possible that the check got lost in the mail so you should call them right away and asked them if they sent the check but that should not be the norm. when waiting for payment from a title company.

In conclusion I am sure that things have changed in the 5 years since I have worked for a title company and I am sure there may be a very few title companies that choose not to do business this way but most reputable companies do not want to take the chance of getting in a lot of trouble for holding up funds that do not belong to them.