Posted by Richard Ingram on 2/6/08 3:02pm
Msg #234324

Cancel at table.

I had a loan signing back in November where the young couple signed all the docs and then the father showed up as I was leaving. He asked to look at the note and told the son that he did not think he should go through with the loan. I explained the RTC and with the son's approval left the signing with docs signed and in hand. As soon as I reached my office the son and father have left messages telling me not to return docs to lender and wanting me to return signed docs to them.
I explain again the RTC and the father got verbally abusive and threatening. I called the lender to inform them of the situation and they said to not return docs. They agreed to pay my fee but each attempt to collect is met with the response that I did not complete the assignment. It does seem that every time I have a cancellation at the table I have difficulty collecting my fee. Any input would be appreciated.

Reply by Gerry_VT on 2/6/08 3:26pm
Msg #234328

I'm not a lawyer, but here is my next-to-worthless opinion:

There are several essential steps to make a deed or mortgage effective; if a step isn't performed, the deed or mortgage is either worthless or its value is seriously compromised.

Step 1. The grantor signs it.

Step 2. The grantor seals it, usually by having the word "seal" or "L.S." in the document. This is not required in some states.

Step 3. The grantor acknowledges it before a notary.

Step 4. The notary completes a certificate of acknowledgement, signs the certificate, and in some states, seals it.

STEP 5. THE GRANTOR DELIVERS THE DEED OR MORTGAGE TO THE GRANTEE.

Unfortunately, I have never seen the question of when delivery occurs addressed on this board. If giving it to the signing agent counts as delivery to the grantee, Richard Ingram did exactly the right thing by not returning it, and if he had returned it, he would have violated the rights of the grantee. If, on the other hand, giving it to the signing agent does not count as delivery to the grantee, then Richard Ingram violated the rights of the grantor. I really wish someone who knows the answer would post here, as well as pointing to some authoritative document (since bulletin board postings are not reliable sources of information, including this posting).

Reply by MikeC/NY on 2/6/08 8:26pm
Msg #234394

<< Step 2. The grantor seals it, usually by having the word "seal" or "L.S." in the document. This is not required in some states.>>

In current usage, "sign" and "seal" are interchangeable - so grantor completes steps 1 and 2 at the same time.

<<STEP 5. THE GRANTOR DELIVERS THE DEED OR MORTGAGE TO THE GRANTEE.>>

Why would the grantor deliver a mortgage to the grantee? Even if the grantor was holding the mortgage, wouldn't it be the other way around?

Reply by Roger_OH on 2/6/08 3:29pm
Msg #234329

I'd have told them docs had already been dropped and that they'd need to use their RTC if they wanted to cancel at that point. Then drop docs and advise company that LO needs to talk with son - it's his loan, not dad's. With that done, you have indeed completed your assignment.

Reply by Gerry_VT on 2/6/08 4:06pm
Msg #234339

Disagree with Roger

"I'd have told them docs had already been dropped and that they'd need to use their RTC if they wanted to cancel at that point. Then drop docs..." I hate to be harsh, but notaries should not lie. I hope the quoted passage does not mean what it seems to mean.

Reply by ZeeCA on 2/6/08 4:52pm
Msg #234347

why? it is not the dad's loan.... n/m

Reply by Gerry_VT on 2/6/08 6:05pm
Msg #234369

Re: why? it is not the dad's loan....

I disagree with telling anyone that a package has been dropped (which I take to mean given to a delivery service like FedEx) when it has not been. If you want to say "I can't talk about my clients with people who aren't my clients", fine. If you want to say "I can't take requests about returning a package with someone who isn't my client" thats fine too. If you use callerid and don't take phone calls or read emails from clients until the package has been dropped, that's probably OK too.

Reply by CaliNotary on 2/6/08 7:47pm
Msg #234390

Sometimes a white lie is the best answer

Telling the dad that the docs were already dropped ends the notary's involvement and the dad would have called the TC to b!tch instead of doing it to the notary. You save yourself time and grief, and in this situation would likely not have ended up with collection problems as the assignment was completed the way it should have been.

The original poster should have at the very least gotten it in writing that they wanted him to hold onto the docs. I wouldn't even have done that, there is no way in hell I'm going to sit on signed docs. I'd just send em back and let them deal with it.

Reply by Gerry_VT on 2/6/08 8:28pm
Msg #234395

Re: Sometimes a white lie is the best answer

The original poster probably isn't in any trouble, since the father of the borrower had no standing to ask for anything. CaliNotary probably wouldn't have a problem; CaliNotary is probably savy enough not to communicate with the borrower between leaving the signing location and dropping the docs. But if CaliNotary were to slip up and accept a call from the borrower, and be asked to not send the docs, we have no clear answer what should be done. Unfortunately, there isn't any answer that is the safe or conservative answer; either you screw the borrower, or you screw the lender. One of them is supposed to get screwed, and the other isn't, and we don't know which is which.

Reply by CaliNotary on 2/6/08 9:05pm
Msg #234399

Re: Sometimes a white lie is the best answer

"Unfortunately, there isn't any answer that is the safe or conservative answer; either you screw the borrower, or you screw the lender."

How is the borrower being screwed? They still have the right and the ability to cancel the loan if you return the docs.

Returning the docs no matter what the borrower requests IS the safe answer, nobody forced them to sign them but since they did they now have to cancel the loan using the proper method. How you're turning it into an ethical dilemma is beyond me.

Reply by Gerry_VT on 2/6/08 9:47pm
Msg #234406

Re: Sometimes a white lie is the best answer

CaliNotary wrote "Returning the docs no matter what the borrower requests IS the safe answer, nobody forced them to sign them but since they did they now have to cancel the loan using the proper method. How you're turning it into an ethical dilemma is beyond me."

There are two problems with that statement. First of all, the right of recission does not always apply. Secondly, the grantor of a deed or mortgage does NOT become bound upon signing, the grantor becomes bound upon delivery. Witholding delivery is just as good a legal method of not granting a deed as not signing it. So the question is, at what point has delivery occurred, and at what point is the right to withhold delivery no longer available to the grantor? So far, I have not seen any convincing answer to the question.

If you search Google for the keywords deliver and deed, you see all kinds of strange legal cases where someone signed a deed, acknowledged it before a notary, put it in his/her own drawer or safe deposit box, then died. The deeds in these cases were ineffective because they were not delivered. The moment of signing is not the decisive moment; delivery is the decisive moment.

Reply by CaliNotary on 2/6/08 11:07pm
Msg #234418

Re: Sometimes a white lie is the best answer

"The moment of signing is not the decisive moment; delivery is the decisive moment."

It's not OUR job to determine what constitutes delivery, nor is it our place to get involved with any of that. One reason would be we're exposing ourselves to legal risk if we hold onto signed docs and cause a loan not to fund, and the second and most important reason is that THEY DON'T PAY US ENOUGH TO GET INVOLVED WITH THAT STUFF.

Whether or not the right of rescission applies is irrelevant. The borrower shouldn't have let us leave the house with signed docs if they didn't want the loan. The decision is theirs, not ours, and if they change their mind after the fact then they have to deal with whatever consequences that may entail.

It's like buying a new car. Once you drive it off the lot it is YOURS, so you better be damn sure you want it before you do that. You can't call 20 minutes later and change your mind. Same thing with docs, once I've driven away from the house then those docs are delivered and it becomes the borrower's problem if they change their mind.

Reply by Gerry_VT on 2/6/08 11:24pm
Msg #234420

Re: Sometimes a white lie is the best answer

Your position is that giving the signing agent the deed and not asking for it back before the signing agent walks out the door is delivery. Perhaps you're right, but I have not seen anything that says so. If the grantor asks for them back later and you say no, you have determined that delivery occurred. If you don't think you're getting paid enough to make that determination, too bad, because you only have two choices, give them back, or not.

Reply by CaliNotary on 2/6/08 11:48pm
Msg #234424

Re: Sometimes a white lie is the best answer

"If you don't think you're getting paid enough to make that determination, too bad, because you only have two choices, give them back, or not."

I'm not making that determination. My job is to take the signed docs from the borrower's house and to return them to the title company. And that's exactly what I do, whether or not I speak to the borrower in the interm. There is no decision to be made, that's just what happens after every single signing - signed docs go to the TC, period.

It sounds to me like you end up sticking your nose in places where it legally doesn't belong because of this ridiculous overthinking you're doing. I sure hope you have a lot of E&O insurance.

Reply by Gerry_VT on 2/7/08 12:21am
Msg #234427

Re: Sometimes a white lie is the best answer

And my opinion of you is that your usual policy is perfect, and anything different than what you're used to is wrong and stupid. I shall never again respond to one of your posts.

Reply by CaliNotary on 2/7/08 1:36am
Msg #234435

Re: Sometimes a white lie is the best answer

Aw, I'm crushed. Now I'll have to go find a brick wall to beat my head against to get the same results as I've gotten from this conversation with you.

Reply by CaliNotary on 2/7/08 1:52am
Msg #234437

I just looked at your profile Gerry

and found this:

"That is, I have corresponded with the notary coordinator in the Vermont Secretary of State office and been informed that loan signings between an individual and a big institution require an attorney, but a non-attorney notary may notarize in a transaction between individuals (e.g. a deed between neighbors to resolve a driveway issue). I feel the issue is not clear-cut, and respect those who have come to a different conclusion. "

Between that and your responses in this thread, I have to wonder how you get anything accomplished in life, you just come across as so wishy washy. Something tells me that even getting you to pick a restaurant for dinner is a chore.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 2/7/08 9:14am
Msg #234449

Re: Sometimes a white lie is the best answer

AND.........the docs are the property of the lender, not the borrower.
I agree with Cali on this one.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 2/7/08 10:19am
Msg #234459

Re: why? it is not the dad's loan....

You should probably stick with the non-real estate transactions.
You don't seem to get it...and this is from people with many combined years
and experiences with loans and real estate transactions.
JMHO

Reply by TRG_wy on 2/6/08 4:52pm
Msg #234348

I always drop docs when i am already out unless there are faxbacks.

I'd make note to the LO/SS that there were issues AFTER signing was completed; just as a headsup to them. It is the son's loan and the father has no interest in it. Let the son use his RTC and talk directly to his LO about any issues.

Reply by ZeeCA on 2/6/08 3:35pm
Msg #234330

I agree with Roger BUT when something changes... i tell them to send me an email with the "new terms/conditions/directions" good cya in the long run.. a telephone conversation can so easily be forgotten..........

Reply by Cari on 2/6/08 3:54pm
Msg #234336

i also agree wih Roger and to add my 2 cents....

i had a recent 'no sign' at the table (we were at the LO office) the borrower and his wife were being 'advised' by a friend of theirs who was also a LO and it was sort of funny because they were all arguing in the same language...

BUT getting back on point, to make sure i got paid something, i followed up with p/c's before i left the table to the ss and tc, then when i got back to my office, i followed up on those p/c's with emails to everyone....anything in writing is good - and email is one of the better ways to have yourself covered in case you need to take the issue up in small claims court, etc for lack of payment.

Reply by docs1954CA on 2/6/08 5:00pm
Msg #234351

The Father should've been there earlier n/m

Reply by lindetteh_PA on 2/6/08 6:04pm
Msg #234368

I have had this happen to me several times and I just have the borower sign the RTC on the I wish to cancel line and give them the copy they signed ack. they know they have the RTC this way the loan will not go through and you will have a tracking # back to the title co. Now If you still have the docs they signed send them in so that you can prove that you did what you were asked to do. If they still refuse to pay you them they probably had no intention of paying you after your telephone call to them.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 2/6/08 8:00pm
Msg #234392

This really wasn't a cancel at the table, was it, since they signed the docs. This happens on occasion. Last time it happened to me I told them "I am the impartial witness to their signatures on the documents. I need to complete my work by returning the docs. I did explain in detail your right to cancel documents, so I suggest you call your loan officer and review the RTC documents." Then I called in the completion report and the loan officer to and let them know that the BO's are having second thoughts. I don't know what happened after that but I got paid.

What I am having a problem with, and perhaps I don't understand your situation well, is your method. Frequently the LO can call the BO right away and talk to them for a while and save the loan. Then everyone is happy. I know you called the lender and they told you not to send the docs back, but there are always several people involved in this and perhaps the person you spoke to was wrong in telling you that. You left yourself open to a lawsuit if both parties get together lie and say that you not completing the transaction by not sending the documents caused them the loss of a rate lock or other expenses. And the person that told you not to send the docs would deny they said that in court. Probably not going to happen, but it is always possible.

Next time this happens where someone calls you after the job is completed, do your completion report noting that the work is done, but the BO is having secont thoughts and call the LO and tell him the same thing, but drop the docs to complete your end of the transaction to take you out of the legal loop. Let the BO and the LO talk it through. If the BO is still not satisfied, then they can exercise their RTC. But the way you did it did not give anyone a chance to save the transaction and you left yourself open to legal action.

Reply by Gerry_VT on 2/6/08 9:53pm
Msg #234408

Glenn's answer assumes the documents belong to the lender and should go where the lender wants them. I'm not sure that's true. If one or more of them belong to the borrower, then the signing agent has no right to send them against the borrowers instructions. On the other hand, if they really do belong to the lender, then they must be sent where the lender wants them, regardless of the borrower's wishes.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 2/6/08 11:03pm
Msg #234417

The loan is signed and closed, I have left to go to my next job or home. It's my obligation to complete what I have been contracted for. I am under contract with whomever hired me, a SS, TC or directly by a lender--- not the borrower. So it is the person that hired me that I take my WRITTEN instructions from, not the borrower. I have my written instructions on my confirmation. I let them know that the loan closed, but with issues. I also give the LO a call if I have their number. That is it. The last instruction is where to send them. When that is done, and I did my job according to state law, then I am no longer leaving myself open to a lawsuit. If you deviate from the plan and respond to verbal instructions without a written confirmation, then one or both parties can lie about what was said and leave me holding the bag. This is strictly for CYA. There is an expression I learned 40 years ago from the corporate lawyers of the company I retired from "If it isn't written down, it didn't happen." It sounds harsh, but that is the business world.

Whether the BO feels they got ripped off, or the loan needs to be canceled, they have questions, well that is what the 3 day RTC and the loan officer is for. The notary signing agent should not / cannot be involved in this process. That is between the loan company and the borrower.

Reply by Gerry_VT on 2/6/08 11:29pm
Msg #234422

If you let the borrower contact you between the time you leave and the time you drop the documents, you are involved. You have to decide who has the right to control the deed. No one has posted anything convincing to indicate who has control.

Your statement that "The loan is signed and closed, I have left to go to my next job or home" is saying that delivery occured when you walked out the door, because nothing is closed until delivery occurs. You can find lots of court cases that argue whether delivery occured or not; I don't know the answer, but I know it isn't simple.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 2/7/08 1:14am
Msg #234432

Seems to me that doing anything other than following our written instructions would require a legal determination on our part and would be UPL. I don't want to be in the middle of that mess. I think I would agree with Glenn and let the BO work it out with the LO.

Reply by Gerry_VT on 2/7/08 1:33am
Msg #234434

You assume that deciding to follow your written instructions is not making a legal determination. Your written instructions don't protect you if they tell you to do something you have no authority to do. Also, remember that the grantor never saw your written instructions, so you can't say that he was warned ahead of time.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 2/7/08 1:50am
Msg #234436

Gerry, I understand where you are coming from, however my answer was based on a legal opinion asked of my attorney 3 years ago on a situation almost exactly as the on that started this thread. The fact that I "let the borrower contact me" (what does a person do, screen numbers not to "let" the borrower make contact ?) does not change the fact that I must honor the contract and the instructions of the person that hired me as long as I am following the law. You are over-thinking a very simple situation. The borrower has no authority to tell you anything about how to handle the loan papers since you are not under contract with the borrower -- at least not in California ........


Disclamer
However, anyone should seek their own legal advice and my posts are not meant as legal advice

Reply by sue_pa on 2/7/08 7:15am
Msg #234439

..." (what does a person do, screen numbers not to "let" the borrower make contact ?) ...

That's exactly what I do. I did an application appointment the other week. Mrs. Potential Borrower called me 3 times during the next week. Each time her message was along the lines of ... we need to speak to you about some things... I never called her back because there was nothing that "I" needed to speak to her about. I've had countless borrowers call me after the fact throughout the years and I ignore each and every call. It is not my job to assist them with anything other than getting signatures on their paperwork. Depending who my client is I alert them when there is a potential problem.

Reply by Johna/NY on 2/7/08 10:30am
Msg #234463

Your obligation is to the person who hired you. Ask what they want you to do and be done with it. Don't even engage with the borrower or Dad after you explained your position.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 2/7/08 4:31am
Msg #234438

1) This illustrates the absolute need to ALWAYS drop pkgs immediately into the nearest drop box after leaving the signing. Had you done that, the entire situation would be moot.

2) The loan documents - signed or unsigned - are the property of the Lender.

3) Until the documents are signed, the loan can be revised by the lender. Once they are signed, the terms (of the Note) can't be revised and the original loan must be rescinded and a new loan drawn up if they want to change terms (and assuming they WANT to follow the law and protocol). To the lender it just means a little more work and some different procedures to follow, to the borrower the only 'concern' might be if rates have gone up.

4) You said the "lender" told you to "not return docs" - I'll take you at your word that it was truly the lender, and not a mtg broker/L.O. IMHO, you've drawn yourself into the mix by calling (again, the call wouldn't have come into play, had docs been dropped IMMEDIATELY; you've been given instructions that further implicate you into this. (Should the borrower decide to acknowledge that he DID sign that pkg - and all you have is some verbal instruction to not return those signed docs, you're putting faith in people that may/may not honor such faith.)

5) The RTC is not intended to be used as a tool to entice a consumer to sign loan documents, and this situation enters into that gray area.

Shorter version - a signed pkg leaves my hands immediately, always & without fail and for a zillion reasons, this being just one of them.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 2/7/08 10:02am
Msg #234454

The loan documents - signed or unsigned - are the property

of the Lender.
That is my understanding as well.

Reply by Richard Ingram on 2/7/08 10:03am
Msg #234455

Thanks to all for the responses as they were all enlightening. The fathers threats did not bother me. It was the son requesting the signed docs back and the fear he had that the loan would close even with his RTC. Had the lender told me to return the docs I would have no problem. However, their verbal instructions were that the docs did not need to be returned and I was told to destroy same. My mistake was taking them at their word and not getting written confirmation.
I do think, from this situation, that I will follow up on all my cancellations immediately. This follow up will include issues after printing docs, borrower refusing to meet with me and cancellations at the table.
This is just another example that we cannot be too thorough in our relationships with borrowers and lenders. I just wish the lenders, tc's and signing services would realize all the different situations we face each day and pay us fairly for our work product.