Posted by Joanne_NY on 2/16/08 12:43pm
Msg #235585
Refused to sign as printed.
Went to a closing today ... borrower had a credit rating of 458 and 13 outstanding liens/judgments/charge offs on his credit report ... but he got a loan! At any rate, when I explained that he needed to sign his name as printed ... he refused and said his signature (two initials - first and last) was his signature and he refused to budge. We called his "broker" and broker said to go ahead. On name affidavit, I explained that name needed to be signed with and without middle initial ... refused ... on note/mortgage, asked that he use all three initials on the initial line ... refused, again! I completed the closing, per the "broker" but was so mad by the time I left, my hands were shaking. To quote the borrower ... "This isn't my first time at the rodeo ... I have done twelve closings." I explained that I had done over 2000 and had never had this problem before ... but would heed the wishes of the broker. What would you have done? (Just needed to vent!) Joanne in Northern New York.
| Reply by JK/TX on 2/16/08 1:04pm
Msg #235586
That just makes you want to pop them in the back of the head! I just say, "Ok, but the lender requires yada yada so you may be delaying funding and possibly creating a resign, but it's your loan and like you said, it's not your first rodeo." (Then I would think "must of fallen on your head at your first rodeo, jackass"
One time, and one time only, the lender or title sent a one sheeter w/the docs that had "borrower instructions"... same as we get but it was directed at the borrower. Each requirement had to be initialled and then they sign the bottom. The requirements were, among other things, --Sign w/blue ink-- Sign your name exactly as it appears-- the notary cannot answer any questions regarding you loan, only there to secure signatures-- (I liked that one)-- if you do not follow these instructions, you may delay in your loan funding.
Great document!
| Reply by Demore on 2/16/08 3:34pm
Msg #235599
I would have the situation in the record -- "Official Journal of Notarial Acts."
Good Luck!
| Reply by Glenn Strickler on 2/16/08 1:13pm
Msg #235587
Hopefully you got the "per broker" in writing as they may try not to pay you for not following instructions.
I don't know what happens in your county, but in my county, if the DOT is not signed as printed, it won't record.
Personally, I have them sign properly, or "No Rodeo"
| Reply by Les_CO on 2/16/08 1:13pm
Msg #235588
We’ve all had these. You can’t MAKE the borrower do anything. In situations like this, I say “You need to sign the documents exactly as your name is written on the paperwork. The title company researched this property, and your name shows up of record as its written here. If you want the loan, sign it as directed, if not, I couldn’t care less. They pay me for my time regardless.” This usually works.
| Reply by Frenchie/TN on 2/16/08 1:31pm
Msg #235589
I have a form, I think I printed it off of PAW's website but I am not sure, that covers this situation: Essentially it says (cliff version) "I want to sign this way and I understand my loan docs may be invalid" I have never used it but I always carry it with me. If you want a copy, send me a message and I can scan it and send it. This way you also CYB!
| Reply by Barbara A Demonte on 2/16/08 2:22pm
Msg #235590
This one will probably be a re-sign. The TC's and underwriter's won't accept anything other than what is printed on the paper. When I have borrower's like this one and can't reach the TC, I tell them they have to follow the instructions from the TC or there will not be a closing. You would be surprised at how many of them cooperate when I start gathering up the documents to leave. I'm not wasting my time signing docs for a loan that won't fund and getting fees docked for not following instructions.
| Reply by MistarellaFL on 2/16/08 3:30pm
Msg #235597
How I cover my @$$: This usually gets them to sign correctly
Name Modification – Release
The notary has advised me that by not signing my name exactly as printed on the loan documents, I run several risks.
1)My loan documents may need to be reprinted and signed again by me at a later date.
2)My loan documents may be invalid which may cause me to lose my interest rate lock.
3)Other risks, known and unknown, financial and otherwise that may be associated with my choice to not sign my documents as instructed.
I understand and accept by signing the documents, as I prefer, and not to sign as the notary has instructed and hereby release the notary and his/her agents from any and all liability resulting from my decision on this matter.
I understand that the notary is not an attorney and may not give legal advice, or accept fees for legal advice.
______________
Date
______________________________ _______________________________
Borrower Signature Borrower Printed Name
______________________________ _______________________________
Borrower Signature Borrower Printed Name
_______________________________ _____________________________________
Notary Signature Notary Printed Name
| Reply by WDMD on 2/16/08 7:08pm
Msg #235631
"This one will probably be a re-sign. The TC's and underwriter's won't accept anything other than what is printed on the paper. When I have borrower's like this one and can't reach the TC, I tell them they have to follow the instructions from the TC or there will not be a closing. You would be surprised at how many of them cooperate when I start gathering up the documents to leave. I'm not wasting my time signing docs for a loan that won't fund and getting fees docked for not following instructions."
Question:
If the borrower says that is my signature, I'm signing the way it is typed, do you adjourn the signing if it does not meet your approval?
My signature has a W_____(not readable) and a D---------(not readable). I can guarantee you if I'm borrowing $350,000 no notary is going to tell me I have to sign to their approval. (I've never had to re-sign doc's yet because of my signature, and if I had to I'd get another lender).
| Reply by Pat/IL on 2/16/08 9:47pm
Msg #235644
Nobody has a right to demand a borrower change his or her signature. And nobody has a right to demand that a particular lender fork over the funds. It's the borrower's choice.
Disclaimer: Message board banter, not legal advice.
| Reply by Philip Johnson on 2/16/08 3:15pm
Msg #235595
Here your signature is on your license
and if it looks close to what their signing on the paper, who am I to question their signature? My signature consists of pretty much a series of loops so I try not to get too deep into what is a signature.
| Reply by jba/fl on 2/16/08 3:35pm
Msg #235601
Re: Here your signature is on your license
I'm w/Phillip on this one - if this person has sig similar to DL or whatever ID presenting, fine w/me. Then, I make absolutely sure that on the signature/aka affidavit that they sign exactly the way they did on the mtg.
Had a guy do loop-d-loop all the way through the pkg, then on sig. aff. just as pretty as can be: George M. Washington (made up name folks). Had to go back to get that one redone as I didn't catch and/or connect at the time.
| Reply by JanetK_CA on 2/16/08 4:05pm
Msg #235609
Re: Here your signature is on your license
I tend to agree with you, depending on what the initials look like. If they are very neat and concise, I'd likely take action as some have noted above, but if it's initials with a squiggle or such, I'd ask if that is his signature as "John Q Pubic". If he says yes and it matches his ID, I'd probably accept that, and just have him sign a note explaining that he has signed with his normal full signature. I've had some with 3 or 4 different name variations on the Sig/Name Aff where the signature looked the same for all of them. Never been a problem.
If a person has signed his/her name on every legal (or otherwise) document for most of their life, then has to sign something as important as loan docs with a signature that they have NEVER used before and that does not look like any other they have used, that could be asking for trouble. If the docs ever ended up in court, many attorneys would pounce on that with a good likelihood of having the docs tossed out of court. (I've heard this from more than one attorney -- but this is still jmo -- do not consider this legal advice....)
| Reply by Vince/KS on 2/16/08 4:28pm
Msg #235612
Re: Here your signature is on your license
Glad to hear it isn't just a Kansas thing. Many times here the drivers license saves the day. If the signature is consistent and looks like what is on it - he may have a case that the squiggles are his “legal signature” (if names match). Have not had one returned yet on that basis. Otherwise it’s back to Plan A.
| Reply by Maureen_nh on 2/16/08 4:25pm
Msg #235611
When I first started I used to get heartburn over this. Your case is a little extreme but I carry a refusal to sign form with me and just add on "as printed".
Then the borrower adds his/her explaination.
God bless squiggles.
I only had one problem with a squggiler--she seemed to think she was some sort of abstract arist and was not consistant at all. This was supposed to prevent fraud. HUH? When none of them looked alike and none of them matched her ID.
Takes all kinds and working with the public you meet them.
| Reply by LatteLady/NV on 2/16/08 11:01pm
Msg #235657
There have been a couple of times in my notary career that the borrower's printed their name instead of using cursive writing. At first I found that very odd, but in some cultures, that is the way they do it. I asked the borrower if she would kindly sign her name and not print it. She told me she didn't know how to. What does that say about our education system?
| Reply by LKT/CA on 2/16/08 11:13pm
Msg #235658
<<<he refused and said his signature (two initials - first and last) was his signature and he refused to budge.>>>
I understand where he's coming from. My last name is Thornton.....made in 3 strokes only!! I sign first name, middle initial and 3 strokes for last name and I run it all together. One can sort of see the first name and middle initial, but the last name is illegible....unless my name is printed somewhere near it, no one could tell those 3 strokes were Thornton. My signature matches my driver's license signature which is my legal signature. For 18 years I've signed one way no matter how my name is printed.
As a Notary, I do instruct borrowers to sign their name as printed on the docs. I've haven't had an issue so far and hopefully I won't going forward but if I ever do, I'll work it out at that time.
| Reply by Ernest__CT on 2/17/08 12:37am
Msg #235668
I've got two forms that get sent with the docs.
One says that the signer's signature is the same as is signed on their identification.
T'Other says that the signer refused to sign as instructed. I have the signer write out a statement that they are signing as they want to rather than as they were told. If they won't write and sign that statement, I gather up all docs and leave. Period. That stops all nonsense.
| Reply by WDMD on 2/17/08 6:15am
Msg #235675
Re: I've got two forms that get sent with the docs.
"T'Other says that the signer refused to sign as instructed. I have the signer write out a statement that they are signing as they want to rather than as they were told. If they won't write and sign that statement, I gather up all docs and leave. Period. That stops all nonsense."
Why is it "nonsense" if the borrower has sloppy handwriting? Not everyone has nice penmanship.
| Reply by jba/fl on 2/17/08 6:58am
Msg #235677
Re: I've got two forms that get sent with the docs.
Some people sign an inordinate amount of documents daily and their signatures, initials, have evolved to a speedy 'get it done' approach.
I know another Julianne with a longer last name and she only signs Juli. The first time I saw it, I was concerned that she forgot to finish signing, but was assured by her and her atty that this is the way she signs everything.
Many years ago JFK remarked (someplace, sorry can't quote source) that for speed he signed without lifting pen from the paper, so I tried that, and lo and behold, it is much faster, resulting in another evolution in my signature. Then, having to initial everything I saw in a job taught me that lower case is faster, and to this day, one of my pet peeves is when someone initials in all caps and has to put periods (not dots-lol) after each initial. (I just want to scream: do it this way and show them - but I do contain myself)
Like many others, my signature has evolved over the years. I practice while doodling, and will have a new sig. to put in place when I renew my commission and will be sure to change my DL to support it. This is part of life, this flexibility.
| Reply by CF on 2/17/08 8:31am
Msg #235680
How can we force a person to sign their name?
I have a lot of people that do not sign the way it is printed. I have never, 3500+ signed, had one loan rejected by the lender b/c of the borrower’s signature. I do not sign my first full name on using my notary seal only first initial and last name. That is my signature and I challenge anyone trying to get me to sign another way!!!!! I will not sign my name on mortgage docs any other way than what I sign it. I have bought 2 homes and refi’ed 2 times: never a problem.
Most of the time a signature can not even be read- let alone compared to a printed version. This just seems trivial.
I would like to know how many people have had loans rejected b/c of the signature? I am just curious b/c I have never instructed any borrower to sign differently than the way that they sign! I know this will strike a bone with people- but I just can not see how- we the notary- lender- or TC can dictate to a person their legal signature???
| Reply by TRG_wy on 2/17/08 9:23am
Msg #235683
Re: How can we force a person to sign their name?
Well, it comes down to what title and lender will accept. Some lenders do not service loans and they are the picky ones because they depend on being able to sell the note. If a signature looks "hoaky" to them then they have issues.
I have signed close to 5,000 loans now and I could count on one hand where this was an issue. Only one required a re-sign, all others wanted a signed statement letter from the borrower and for me to verify it matches signature on valid ID. I imagine that it why too that I see more and more requirements to include borrower photo ID.
| Reply by CJ on 2/17/08 10:10am
Msg #235685
My two cents.
When I was new, I did have to go back one time to get "proper" signatures. Of course, I did not get paid and I rememered that. So when someone has an illegible signature I say this: "You must sign the way it is typed. However, I know you want to sign like this. So if they ask you what this says, DON'T say, "that's my legal signature", say, "Yes, this says 'John Q. Public', just like it is typed". Otherwise they will make me come back and make you sign the whole thing legibly."
If they give me more hard time, as in, "But that's not my legal signature", (As in "but I never use my middle initial" I say, "They don't want your legal signaturre, they want it to match the vesting" (and I show them the DOT).
For me, that has worked every time. I have also run into people who cannot handwrite their name, but they were not raised in America, so you can't blame our eduacation system. I have noticed those people also can't read. One time the lender was insistant that the guy who printed MUST handwrite their name, so I handwrote it for him so he could copy it.
One time a couple bought the house before they were married, then they got married, but the vesting had the wife's maiden name. I remember I was able to get ID in her maiden name. She was upset that I was insisting that she sign the way it's typed becuase she wanted to sign in her married name. She said, "Don't they care that's not my legal name?!" I said, "NO, they only care that it matches the vesting."
Last story: one time a guy was happily signing along, and I was having him work on his stack while I double checked the finished docs. I realized he had printed his name on some papers and signed others. I said, "Why did you do this?" He said, "I am very smart: here it says, "borrower", and here it says "signature". I had to argue with him to SIGN where he printed. He caved in and did it, but it was obvious he thought I was stupid to see he didn't REALLY have to "sign" there.
I really like the form someone previous posted in this thread, and I am going to make some to take with me. Thanks!
| Reply by kathy/ca on 2/17/08 1:42pm
Msg #235689
I always say to sign your normal signature, & as long as it
mathces their ID signature, it is acceptable even if illegible.
| Reply by Joan_OH on 2/17/08 3:26pm
Msg #235692
I saw a rejected loan once......
About a year ago, I got a mobile notary call from 2 asian doctors in a nearby city. Said they had loan docs that had to be resigned. When I got there, I found out why.
They were buying a home in CA, 1st & 2nd Mortgage. Countrywide refused to fund the 2nd because after the notary asked the wife to sign the signature affidavit and it was a complete scrawl as you would expect from a Doctor. However, the notary made the Doctor sign all the lender docs "exactly as printed". Doctor didn't want to, but the notary threatened that "the loan may not fund". Well, it didn't fund because of the notary's forced the Doctor to sign in a way that was not how she normally signed as evidence by the signature on her ID & Signature affidavit. Asian Doctor had 5 names on her ID as so many immigrants will.
My feeling is if they scrawl - Hooray!!! If it matches the ID - Double Hooray. If it's legible and there is an obvious ommision of a middle initial, ask them to sign with their middle initial. Haven't had one rejected yet.
Another time, I had a young, immigrant man sign a cash purchase deal. I noticed he seemed to be struggling with his signature so I picked up his ID and found it was printed on his license, yet he was signing in cursive - obviously not his natural choice evidenced by the way he was struggling. When I asked him why, he said his Real Estate agent told him he had to use cursive on Real Estate documents. I told him to sign like on his ID. RE agent was there specifically to pick my brain about how to do my job and how to get business - Good Grief. Don't think I have to worry about her as competition.
Almost 4000 loans and haven't had one rejected due to a signature. Common sense really prevails here.
Joan-OH
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