Posted by jac_il on 1/6/08 11:29am
Msg #229123

Back dating

What do you think the penality for backdating a set of loan documents should be? Let me first say we all know this is illegal and only the true bottom feeders do this. So this is a what if scenerio.

Scenerio: Notary and/or Attorney notary backdates a set of loan documents. Borrower reports it to lender and title also finds out. Recession period has to start over due to this. Loan still funds but one day late.

As notaries what do you think a fair penalty to you would be for back dating? What would you expect to happen to you for doing this?

Reply by Negrete on 1/6/08 12:06pm
Msg #229124

AHHH how about go to jail and lose your commission for life.

Reply by Roger_OH on 1/6/08 12:19pm
Msg #229125

Simple, Simon.

Backdating a notarization is a fraudulent act. Fraud is a felony. Even lower-degree felonies are often 2-5 years in the can (as well as the aforementioned loss of commission), where you can backdate all you want as the new wife of Bubba.

Reply by jac_il on 1/6/08 12:40pm
Msg #229127

As we all know proving what occured is another story. We also know that the borrowers almost never report it any further than back to the lender.

I am just wondering what people think would happen to them. How many notaries have thought about the penalties. Or is it that they think nobody will every take the effort to report it and then follow up on it etc.

Reply by Ruby on 1/6/08 1:13pm
Msg #229131

As a Notary, and you know the rules, why would you even think about it? Even more why would you ask?

Reply by jac_il on 1/6/08 1:58pm
Msg #229139

I am not thinking about it. I know the laws. I know someone who did this and I am just wondering what all the back daters think. I am wonder "if" they consider the ramifications when doing it it. Or if they do it because they think the chances of getting caught are slim to none.

Reply by desktopfull on 1/6/08 2:29pm
Msg #229143


If you know the person doing this and not reporting it, you are complicent in their deeds and enabling them to continue breaking the law. In essence you are letting a bad notary keep their commission and tarnish the professional standing of other notaries. Congratulations.

Reply by jac_il on 1/6/08 2:45pm
Msg #229146

who said it has not been reported?

Reply by desktopfull on 1/6/08 2:50pm
Msg #229147

I believe I said "if", which indicates that the reporting of said incident was "unknown" at the time of my post.

Reply by Howdy/LA on 1/7/08 8:46am
Msg #229192

Just make certain your own house is in order. People who live in glass houses...

Reply by jac_il on 1/7/08 9:53am
Msg #229202

shouldn't throw rocks Burton. Come on. Do you really think I think this is anyone BUT you? I have not posted on this message board in YEARS! Nobody has a beef with me but you.

Reply by Howdy/LA on 1/7/08 10:10am
Msg #229207

desktopfull, you are correct. We do need to tighten up our industry and start filing complaints against companies who violate the law. The industry has a lot of dirty practices that vary from what the laws require. These practices occur on all levels of the food chain.

Reply by Howdy/LA on 1/7/08 10:16am
Msg #229211

Ruby, don't you think that the "rules" are often unknown. Don't you think it is too easy to do loan closings. What qualifications does it really take before starting to do loan closings? It is an open-door industry.

Reply by Ruby on 1/7/08 11:08am
Msg #229225

Howdy: No, I do not think that the rules are unknown. If you can read and follow directions from our Ca. handbook you shouldn't be breaking any rules when you are a Notary. The Ca. handbook spells it out very clearly. But of course, there are few that doesn't like to follow the rules. As far as qualifications, someone should have some background in the real estate industry
or contract law. But it's just like parenting, everyone thinks they are qualified. Some parent are not, but a child comes along--too late.

Reply by Howdy/LA on 1/7/08 11:17am
Msg #229226

Perhaps this is why notaries should undergo mandatory testing and continuing education as part of licensure.

Loan and title companies are some of the biggest offenders for not following laws so a book alone is not sufficient to assure good practices.

Reply by Ruby on 1/7/08 11:33am
Msg #229231

Perhaps you are not following the Ca. laws. We do have mandatory testing and continuing education for Notary's as part of licensing. As for Loan and title Co. some things will never change. You cant change human nature.

Reply by Howdy/LA on 1/7/08 11:38am
Msg #229234

Bad Judgment At All Levels of the Industry

I'm speaking generally. Yes, I am aware regarding California, but that is just 1 of 50 states. We need to control human nature as greed in the lending industry has caused lenders to make bad judgments in their business practices and this is true for all levels of the industry...

Reply by jba/fl on 1/7/08 11:51am
Msg #229238

Message Deleted

This message has been deleted by a forum moderator.

Reason: Generally Inappropriate

Reply by Howdy/LA on 1/7/08 12:18pm
Msg #229253

Re: "We need to control human nature..."

Can't help you there as you suggest actions beyond my control....

Reply by Ruby on 1/7/08 11:51am
Msg #229239

Re: Bad Judgment At All Levels of the Industry

All I'm saying is, if we look back at the Real Estate industry and lending. Starting from World war 11 is we needed rules and regulation to control this industry and no matter how many rules and regulation they pass someone will always find a way for greed. It's a age old problem. Why did we need the HUD and why the usury law and others? But I guess we keep on keeping on. We keep the honest one honest. Anyway no backdating

Reply by Howdy/LA on 1/7/08 12:19pm
Msg #229254

Re: Bad Judgment At All Levels of the Industry

We have beaten the horse and I think he is dead, but folks will still be asked to do it and there will be lenders and title companies that will violate the laws out of greed.

Reply by desktopfull on 1/6/08 1:09pm
Msg #229130

An attorney/notary should be disbarred, based on ethics alone. Lose their commission forever, fined and sent to jail. They more than anyone else know the law and that are performing an illegal act. They sure wouldn't hestitate to bring charges against another notary that isn't an attorney.

Reply by docs1954CA on 1/6/08 1:23pm
Msg #229133

Is this the Realsource story on 123? n/m

Reply by Howdy/LA on 1/7/08 10:58am
Msg #229221

Re: Is this the Realsource story on 123?

Sounds like a lot of personal agendas this morning....

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 1/7/08 2:40pm
Msg #229306

Re: Is this the Realsource story on 123?

"Sounds like a lot of personal agendas this morning...."

You know that is exactly what I thought as I have read your posts.

Reply by Howdy/LA on 1/7/08 2:48pm
Msg #229310

Re: Is this the Realsource story on 123?

I have thought the same thing about the posts of others today so great minds must be at work today.

Reply by Gerry_VT on 1/6/08 1:35pm
Msg #229135

Backdating occurs for a reason. Maybe someone working on something akin to commission wants this transaction to be included in his next paycheck, rather than wait an extra month. Maybe someone wants to complete the transaction before an interest rate lock expires.

How about this: if the interest rate would have been higher had the backdating not occured, everyone involved is liable for the difference between the total of all morgage payments between the higher and lower rates.

Reply by canotarygal on 1/6/08 1:53pm
Msg #229136

So if the intent of backdating is for the clients benefit, to get the best rate for example, then fraud would not be an issue?

Reply by jac_il on 1/6/08 1:56pm
Msg #229137

and that makes it okay? When you notarize a document it states the person appeared before you on such and such day.

Reply by Negrete on 1/6/08 1:58pm
Msg #229138

I can not even phantom what I just saw in writing from you Gerry.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 1/6/08 2:01pm
Msg #229140

Hopefully, Gerry, you were just trying to explain why someone would be asked to backdate and not condoning it?

Reply by Gerry_VT on 1/6/08 2:17pm
Msg #229142

Yes, I was pointing out that people don't backdate just for fun, someone unfairly benefits from backdating. Therefore, someone else unfairly suffers. If the backdaters are caught, the backdaters should be forced to compensate the person or corporation who suffered for their loss.

There might be cases where no one benefits and no one suffers. Perhaps some ignorant person thinks he/she will get in trouble if something isn't done on the planned date without understanding the big picture, so backdates just to make everything look nice. It could be that all the payments would have been the same, no matter which date was used. In this case, there wouldn't be anyone to compensate, but revocation of the notary commission would still be appropriate.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 1/6/08 3:20pm
Msg #229148

Very good, that's it exactly.

It is always good to post about this subject every now and again ...... That way, the newbies can see just what they are risking if they do agree to backdate. And the newbies will be the prime targets.

Unfortunately, not a week goes without me being asked at least once to backdate ..... So people out there are still doing it. ...

Reply by desktopfull on 1/6/08 2:34pm
Msg #229144

Everyone breaking the law always has an excuse for their actions. There is never a justifiable reason to back date a document.

Reply by Howdy/LA on 1/7/08 11:35am
Msg #229232

The Industry Abuses Are At All Levels

There are so many laws that are being broken on all levels of the lending industry that you can see why the industry has the financial problems it has today.

Reply by dickb/wi on 1/6/08 5:04pm
Msg #229151

i can't believe you even wrote this.......

and who cares if the interest lock is lost......then the lender and title co need to get their packagesa out sooner so thay don't have to ask a notary to back date.....sheesh...

Reply by Les_CO on 1/6/08 2:06pm
Msg #229141

Why all this discussion? Is everyone bored? It’s illegal…everywhere….don ‘t do it…ever! One wonders why Notaries get a ‘bad name’. And Notary Signing Agents in particular? If you don’t know what “day” it is..ASK! Professionals? Whewhh!

Reply by canotarygal on 1/6/08 5:55pm
Msg #229154

Ok, I hav thee the book from the NNA and 12 Steps to a Flawless Notarization. It states on page 32
"For acknowledgements, a document's date may precede,.. or be the date on the Notary Certificate. Now, precede, does this mean just one day before or days before.

Reply by jba/fl on 1/6/08 6:07pm
Msg #229155

"a document's date may precede..."

that is the date on the document, ie., mortgage, note, etc, not the date of the notarization. The day you put your signature and stamp on the paper is the date you write down on notary certificate.

Sometimes, not often, documents will have dates that are not the signing date.

Reply by Gerry_VT on 1/6/08 6:14pm
Msg #229156

Remember you don't have to see the signer sign the document for an acknowledgement, all that is necessary is the person who signed the document a few seconds ago, a few days ago, or a few decades ago, acknowledge to you that they signed of their own free will for the purposes indicated in the document. The exact words or conduct required to acknowledge are not specified, so long as the message gets from the signer to the notary.

Reply by CaliNotary on 1/6/08 7:44pm
Msg #229163

"Sometimes, not often, documents will have dates that are not the signing date."

Not in CA. Whenever I get overnight docs (which is admittedly rare these days) they are almost always dated the date that they were prepared, not the day of the signing. It's quite common here.

Reply by Howdy/LA on 1/7/08 10:07am
Msg #229206

We have the same experience...

Reply by Howdy/LA on 1/7/08 10:25am
Msg #229214

Agreed.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 1/6/08 4:47pm
Msg #229150

Ok - several years ago I got a loan package from Service Link. One of the documents in the package was for a Service Link person to sign and have notarized. The notary certificate was already filled out and had the signature and seal of a notary and it was dated for the same day I got the docs, which as they had been overnighted the day before it was impossible to have been notarized the day I got the docs. I called Service Link and they told me it was none of my business and as the document didn't concern me just to send the package on when I had the docs signed. I told them I wouldn't be a party to notary fraud. So, this guy tells me if I was so uncomfortable with it just to destroy the document. I told him I would have to report it to the CA SOS as it was a CA notary who had notarized it. He said if I did that they would never use him again. I told him that was fine by me.
I called the CA SOS office and also faxed over the document in question. The person I spoke to agreed with me, but asked me what I wanted her to do about it!!! I told her I expected her to uphold the notary laws in CA. She said she would send a warning letter to the notary.

Reply by Stamper_WI on 1/6/08 5:47pm
Msg #229152

I ran across the federal penalties for falsifying information to induce the funding of a loan in the US Codes. This included falsifying the dates on loan documents. I recall the fines are up to 1 million and jail time.

Reply by Stamper_WI on 1/6/08 5:51pm
Msg #229153

The fine for doing this is
up to $1,000,000 or prison up to 30
years.
For more information, refer to Section
1014 of the US Code. (18 U.S.B. 1014)

Reply by Charles_Ca on 1/6/08 7:35pm
Msg #229159

Not trying to be picky but its rescission not recession! n/m

Reply by jac_il on 1/6/08 8:48pm
Msg #229165

yes you are right, typos happen such is part of life.... n/m

Reply by Howdy/LA on 1/7/08 12:14pm
Msg #229250

Re: Not trying to be picky but its rescission not recession!

It only feels like a recession we are entering...

Reply by MikeC/NY on 1/6/08 7:49pm
Msg #229164

<< As notaries what do you think a fair penalty to you would be for back dating? What would you expect to happen to you for doing this? >>

In NY, it's a class D felony - so if you're caught doing it, you can expect to spend as much as 7 years as a guest of the state.

Personally, I think anyone who asks a notary to backdate should be held accountable for their actions also, but unfortunately the law doesn't work that way.

Reply by Gary_CA on 1/6/08 9:29pm
Msg #229168

Fortunately the law does work that way.

In CA it is a misdemeanor to ask a Notary to falsify their journal... as it should be.

But I disagree that the Notary should go to prison... anyone who would violate their own sense of ethics and take the liability of participating in a half million dollar fraud for a $100 signing fee belongs in a mental institution.

Reply by desktopfull on 1/7/08 3:31am
Msg #229180

Extremely valid point! n/m

Reply by LisaWI on 1/6/08 9:28pm
Msg #229167

I think this is a great post and responses. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the intent of the original author was to express that this happens all the time and the perpetrators get away with it. More often than not. I would personally like to see this cracked down on harder and for some of the states to take it a little more seriously. I agree with whoever said that the people that ask it to be done ought to be penalized somehow. I personally would like to see a national hotline that these incidents could be reported to and investigated. As far as Im concerned backdaters take food out of my mouth by being unethical and deceitful and it ticks me off. And to boot, some have even bragged about it, like its no big deal. Argggggggg!!

Sorry, got off on a rant.

Reply by Stamper_WI on 1/6/08 10:05pm
Msg #229170

I talked with our SOS about this 2 yrs ago. They are quite willing to pursue it, but it has to be reported and have some kind of documentation. I doubt these requests get put in writing because they know its wrong.
Here is the typical scenario:
1. You have a confirmation for a signing, and the documents don't arrive in time for the signing that day. Remember the day ends at midnight.
2. They call the next day and ask you to backdate the docs. You decline.
3. a month or so later you go to the register of deeds and see that the mortgage was recorded and dated for the original date of your confirmation.
Your documentation consists of the original confirmation, phone records on both days and a copy of the mortgage. Have no doubt that at the least you will be questioned. In WI, the SOS turns the investigations over to the Attorney General. You may be asked to testify in any court proceedings. This does not appleal to the average honest notary but we need to get over that.
The one time I called the SOS notary was on one that was already in trouble with the Dept of Regulation and licensing for things he did as a Realtor which included "witnessing" a wifes signature on a deed when she had not signed it and did not appear before him. The SOS was already aware of this guys actions through the Dept of Regulations.
There is another case where another notary has the documentation, I was called to backdate after she refused and only have 1 phone record (which doesn't say anything about what we talked about no borrowers name). She decided not to report it because of the hassles involved.
I get as many after the fact requests for Quick Claim Deeds that should have been in the loan package. Usually they tell me I forgot to have then sign it. Every time this has happened, I call the borrower and they confirm that it is an afterthought document and/or they were told I would back date it.

Reply by Pat/IL on 1/6/08 10:27pm
Msg #229171

Re: The Solution

Interest rates are not so volatile that the entire package can't be scrapped, redrawn and reclosed in a matter of days. If the rate lock has expired and interest rates have risen, the party at fault can buy down the rate. They might pay a few hundred, but not the interest over 30 years. They might also pay redraw fees and a few additional charges. It still beats the potential penalties brought up in this thread. Not to say that any state would enforce to the fullest, but jeez. Ask the hiring party to shame the guilty partyt into making it right.

Reply by desktopfull on 1/7/08 3:34am
Msg #229181

The company can also give an extension for the lock in. n/m

Reply by Howdy/LA on 1/7/08 11:02am
Msg #229222

Multiple Closing Dates On Documents

What do you do when you handle a closing and you leave out a couple of documents and go back the next day to sign those few documents? Do you find that lenders complain when there are multiple dates in the closing package?

Reply by desktopfull on 1/7/08 4:30pm
Msg #229332

Re: Multiple Closing Dates On Documents

I never forget any documents, but if the company sends additional docs they get dated on the date they are signed. Or as is usually the case with my clients, they send a new package and we re-sign the whole thing over with the new date. Why do you ask so many "what if" questions?

Reply by Howdy/LA on 1/7/08 4:50pm
Msg #229337

Re: Multiple Closing Dates On Documents

Why do you ask so many personal questions?

Reply by desktopfull on 1/7/08 8:40pm
Msg #229386

Re: Multiple Closing Dates On Documents

How is it personal to ask what your purpose for all of these questions are? I not asking for any personal information concerning you, just your motives for the "what if" questions. But I see you prefer to evade answering. I was right in my original evaluation of you. Have a nice evening, I'm done here.

Reply by Howdy/LA on 1/7/08 8:50pm
Msg #229388

Re: Multiple Closing Dates On Documents

Your perception is your reality and flows from your inner core...

Reply by jba/fl on 1/7/08 7:29am
Msg #229186

Quick Claim Deeds should be Quit Claim Deeds

We slam the NNA for all the incorrect info they give, then expect newbies to respect that we know what we are talking about. We need to consider that some typos are not permissable.

Rule: write for the ignorant reader.

Reply by Stamper_WI on 1/7/08 8:07am
Msg #229188

Sorry, didn't catch that n/m

Reply by Howdy/LA on 1/7/08 8:40am
Msg #229190

If the documents arrive late and the notary is prepared to close, but the borrower wants to sign the next day, should there be a penalty to anyone?

Reply by desktopfull on 1/7/08 9:07am
Msg #229193

Regardless of the reason you don't back dating, it's illegal n/m

Reply by jac_il on 1/7/08 10:12am
Msg #229208

If that is the case then the dates on the NORTC need to be changed/intialed and the lender/title company needs to be informed of the change of time and date. Or new docs need to be redrawn.

Late documents is not the issue in all cases and it was not the case in this situation. Closers over book themselves because several appointments will fall through the cracks and be cancelled through the course of the day. Signing Agents often times finds themselves in a jam when none of the appointments fell to the wayside and find the solution is to back date. This is not a solution.

Bases upon this response Howdy Doody you are SO A BACK DATER!

Reply by Howdy/LA on 1/7/08 10:24am
Msg #229213

Sticks and stones and all of that sounds like a lot of grade school conduct.

Reply by desktopfull on 1/7/08 10:42am
Msg #229218

This is a professional site and no one really had the time

for your grade school antics. Read the thread, no one approves of performing illegal notarial acts here. Please quit trollin.

Reply by Howdy/LA on 1/7/08 10:54am
Msg #229219

Re: This is a professional site and no one really had the time

Trollin' are you kidding. . . . What makes you think you are acting professionally by your personal attacks. Contribute something meaningful... In what states do you practice? We work in multiple states. How about you?

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 1/7/08 2:45pm
Msg #229307

Re: This is a professional site and no one really had the time

"We work in multiple states"

I only work in one state as do most of the signing agents on here.

What states do you practice in??????

Reply by Howdy/LA on 1/7/08 2:47pm
Msg #229308

Re: This is a professional site and no one really had the time

Hello Sylvia, too many to mention them all, but in Florida too. How's the weather today?

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 1/7/08 4:10pm
Msg #229326

Re: This is a professional site and no one really had the time

The weather is fine. Not as cold as it has been.

You cannot be a notary in multiple states.

Reply by Howdy/LA on 1/7/08 7:23pm
Msg #229364

Re: This is a professional site and no one really had the time

You cannot be a notary in multiple states.

>>>>>>>Some states do not have a requirement for residency. Florida does have this requirement. Other states only require that you have work in their state, in essence a sponsorship by an employer.

Reply by Howdy/LA on 1/7/08 10:56am
Msg #229220

Multiple State Practices...

We do not have enough information.

What states do you practice in? How do you maintain compliance with the laws in each of these states?

Reply by Stamper_WI on 1/7/08 11:43am
Msg #229236

Re: Multiple State Practices...

By doing your homework and researching each state. No quick answers for what you are looking for. You seem to be concerned about your liabilitities which is refreshing from what appears to be a signing service. As notary's we cannot practice law. I would hate for you to rely on our opinion of where you could do business and not. A legal opinion is needed and I am sure any E&O provider would consider you a better risk if you did so.

Reply by CJ on 1/7/08 12:08pm
Msg #229247

backdating

I would never back date, and I know it is a felony, but one time I asked the SS about it so I would have a better understanding. They said if we back date, the notary is in trouble, the SS is in trouble, the loan and title people are in trouble, and the borrower is off the hook for the loan. It is a misdomeaner to even suggest it. When I am asked to backdate, I tell them it is a misdomeaner to suggest it, and I will not do it. Then I tell my SS, who is grateful for the info. I would rather loose work with one corrupt company that loose my livelihood and my freedom. If I backdated and lost my job, paid fines, and went to jail, do you think the borrower would care? NO WAY!

One time they asked me to back date and I said no, and he said, 'Aw c'mon, all the other notaries do it for me". He sure sounded like slime in the backseat of a car. I told him to get one of them.