Posted by Sharon Robinson on 1/11/08 11:25am
Msg #230223

Notaries Express non-payment policy

I would like to comment as I feel this is an unethical business practice and I would hate to see it catch on to other signing companies. I have worked with Steve and Svitlana of Notaries Express (formerly of Vallejo, Ca now in Walnut Creek, CA) and have a contract dating back to 2005.
I performed a signing w/edocs back in Nov. 2007 and when I inquired 45 days after the fact I was told I would not be paid as of this new non-payment policy adopted sometime over the summer of 2007. Svitlana even admitted that they had never made any attempt to inform me either by phone, email or in writing In fact they had simply buried the notice in their confirmation in a way that no one would notice it. I explained that had I been made aware of this new policy I would have declined the signing and taken Notaries Express off my client list.
I feel I need to get the word out to other notaries about this as it's been my experience to be compensated at least 1/2 the agreed fee for non-funding loans and I would hate to see other signing companies adopt this practice. Notaries Express even advertises on it's website www.notariesexpress.com that 'If your loan doesn't fund...NO FEE!' How unethical is that?!
I urge everyone that has been used in this way to go to the Better Business Bureau and report them as I have done. Notaries Express should not be building their business on the backs of hardworking notaries!

Reply by Linda Juenger on 1/11/08 11:45am
Msg #230227

In response to what they say on their website "If your loan doesn't fund, NO FEE". This is directed to the borrower, not the notary. If the borrower's loan does not fund, no fee means that they do not owe any money.

I feel your pain and am afraid that's the way its headed.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 1/11/08 11:46am
Msg #230228

Did you call the borrower and check to see if the loan

cancelled?

Reply by Sharon Robinson on 1/11/08 2:25pm
Msg #230265

Re: Did you call the borrower and check to see if the loan

I called the escrow agent and was told the file had not funded, I would not contact the borrower.

Reply by Sharon Robinson on 1/11/08 2:23pm
Msg #230264

Yes, I realize the advertising is directed towards lenders but that inducement puts unwary notaries at risk to gain business for them.

Reply by Les_CO on 1/11/08 12:48pm
Msg #230242

There are several companies (and more every day I fear) that do NOT pay the Notary Signing Agent if the loan does not fund…for any reason. As long as they tell you in front that this is there policy you have no complaint. No one out there says you MUST work for anyone on their terms. In these lean days unless the title company has an agreement to the contrary, if the loan does not fund, the lender pays title nothing, therefore title pays everyone down the line nothing. Unfortunately in today’s market many title companies just hanging on, don’t have the excess cash to pay the notary and eat the loss. Sorry… but stuff happens.

Reply by NExpress on 1/11/08 1:21pm
Msg #230251

Sharon, you have done over 35 signings this year for us, and you have received payment on every single signing so far. This is the ONLY signing that did not fund this year for you! I did not tell you that you will not be paid; I said that we are in the process of verifying if this loan has funded. I did email you a reminder that we don't pay on files that do not fund. Since our new policy, you have done a handful of signings for us. Our "no fund, no pay" statement is clearly stated on every confirmation, next to the agreed signing fee amount. I was not aware that it’s "hidden” in any way. The "no fund, no pay" statement has been on our confirmations since June 2007.
Not only were you a notary, we considered you to be a friend. We loved working with you every time. As to us not verbally notifying you about our new policy, I do apologize, but it is up to the notary to read our instructions every time a signing confirmation has been received.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 1/11/08 1:29pm
Msg #230252

Why should the signing agent forfeit their fee if the loan doesn't fund? They did their job! Printed out docs (on an edoc signing), drove to the borrowers, spent time with the borrowers, got the documents signed and notarized, drove to the Fedex or UPS etc and dropped the package off. They should do all of this gratis??? I don't think so (and I am speaking both as a notary and a signing service)

"Not only were you a notary, we considered you to be a friend." Friends don't screw their friends.

Reply by Burton Georgia Loan Closers.com on 1/11/08 1:40pm
Msg #230257

I agree with Sylvia on this one.

It is the responsibility of the signing service to have sufficient cash reserves to handle the inevitable number of closings that will fall through. Notaries are not paid very much for the tremendous service they provide so it is only fair.

To correct an earlier statement of my own, we pay our notaries 100% even though the closing falls through and our attorneys 75% as attorneys bill much higher than notaries.

To summarize, if you hire, you pay!

Best wishes.

Burton F.

Reply by Sharon Robinson on 1/11/08 2:44pm
Msg #230271

Thank you so much for your fair business practice, I hope there may be some time that I can be of service to you. Again, I really think it is distressing direction for our businesses. I for one will always ask now and have the signing agency put their policy in the confirmation.

Reply by Negrete on 1/11/08 3:49pm
Msg #230284

I SECOND THAT NOTAION BURTON

I have the same policy Burton. And I agree 100% with Sylvia also

Anthony J Negrete
Negrete's Notary Service Inc.

Reply by Sharon Robinson on 1/11/08 2:41pm
Msg #230270

Amen to that sister notary! That's my opinion too! But think about what could happen to our industry if this becomes universally practised!

Reply by Shane_OH on 1/11/08 1:30pm
Msg #230253

You are aware that in many states your "no fund, no pay" rule just wouldn't hold up in a small claims filing right?

I mean, we offer a service. If we perform a service, we get paid.
Period, no questions asked, its the law.
You may negotiate a lesser fee, but a payment is required for services rendered.

The fact that the loan didn't fund, is not our problem.
What is our problem, is that we performed a service for you, when we could have used that time to perform a service for others and gotten paid.

Its simple....

Service performed.
You pay.
If not, small claims within 30 days, where in some states you can end up paying 3 times the agreed upon fee + filing fees.

Deal with it, or get out of the business. If you're cash reserves aren't enough to handle paying out on some non-paying businesses, then you are A) undercharging your clients or B) not ready to be in Business.

Damn, is it really that hard?

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 1/11/08 1:35pm
Msg #230255

Welcome Back Shane:) n/m

Reply by Shane_OH on 1/11/08 3:33pm
Msg #230280

Re: Welcome Back Shane:)

Thanks

I'll float in and out occasionally hehe

Reply by Les_CO on 1/11/08 2:13pm
Msg #230261

I did not say that a Notary Signing Agent SHOULD work for nothing. I did not say that I thought the practice of not paying the Notary if the loan does not fund was (morally) right. I said that some companies are doing this, and IF you know the “terms” in front, and still choose to do the signing, you have no complaint.

As for the companies (lenders/title/signing) If they don’t get paid, they should charge their all customers MORE to make up for the losses on a very few? This is like the Hospital justifying charging me $7.00 for an aspirin, because some others don’t pay.
So to Shane I would say (to Paraphrase) Charge YOUR customers (title/SS) MORE for your services to be able to make up for the losses you suffer working for companies that don’t pay if the loan goes south. “Deal with it or get out of the business.” What do they say? “What’s good for the goose is good for the gander?”

Reply by Shane_OH on 1/11/08 3:31pm
Msg #230278

Les - I've been doing this a long time. I would have to say my % of non-pay companies that I deal with is less that 5% easily. And those 5% are Signing Services that call for a closing, and I just happen to be free, and in a good enough mood to say yes to a signing service.

Most of my long term clients pay what I would consider an above average fee, and none of them DON'T pay if a signing doesn't close. However; I will occasionally tell them not to worry about one or two, because things happen....its good for business to forgive them, especially when they are sending me a ton of business.

As for people not paying, well, most title company's rates reflect an expectation that 60-70% of the title orders they get WON'T CLOSE. They perform a title search, on countless loans, that never close....so their prices to the lender reflect that. If you are looking at the HUD to determine what the title companies are being paid for the closing, STOP. Because what is listed under settlement/closing fee....is not what they are being paid for the closing. Many lenders will ask a title company to break up their fees a certain way on the HUD, to reflect better to a customer. Some will have no settlement fee listed, and higher title search. My most common is a $250 settlement fee, and the other fees vary. It just depends on the lender.

Now, having worked for multiple years a closer, a loan officer, and for a title company, maybe, I know a thing or 2.... but thats just me.

You work, you get paid.
If you Les, want to work for free...... I'll send you all the business I can, and sit at home and watch the primaries.

Reply by Les_CO on 1/12/08 10:30am
Msg #230357

Re: Notaries Express non-payment policy/Shane

I thought that may get a response.
Please understand I am NOT condoning the practice of not paying the notaries for work performed. I believe the Notary Signing Agent SHOULD be paid for their time efforts, as well as travel, printing, etc. However we too are in business, not employees of the hiring company. So we too must suffer the potential losses from time to time.

The companies that don’t pay if the loan doesn’t fund, are very few, and if that is their policy, it is their business decision. They don’t worry me, as I still choosewho I work for. It’s the DEADBEATS, and the out and out thieves, and liars that get me. Those that have no intention of paying, just preying on gullible or misinformed notaries. And they are many.

As far as Title Companies, the big profit is not in the ‘closing costs’ but the premium charged. My personal opinion is that having an insurance company and particularly a Title Insurance Co is like having a license to steal! Most “insurance” insures against ‘things to come.’ An accident, an injury, an illness, a death, a disaster. With Title Insurance they are insuring against things that have already HAPPENED! So IF their people can READ they need NEVER pay out a claim. Think of it, you get to collect premiums, and never pay a claim. (Sounds better than roulette, for the house) And here is the REAL plus. You insure the LENDER, and charge the BORROWER the premium. Plus, you give the borrower NO CHOICE!

I agree that if you work you should get paid. However in this business that is not always the case, as the many posts on this and other boards indicate.

Reply by Sharon Robinson on 1/11/08 2:47pm
Msg #230272

Thank you Shane! I believe you are correct. I actually have a contract with them that dates back to 2005 that I dug up that says they will pay within 30 days, etc. and no mention of what happens if the loan does not fund. I never agreed to risk my fee and I know I could win in small claims.

Reply by LKT/CA on 1/11/08 1:54pm
Msg #230258

Payment should never be contingent upon a loan funding. If the borrower won't sign or is a no-show, then a trip fee + a print fee (if edocs) is warranted. However, if the borrower signs, the docs are properly notarized and returned to you, the Notary has fulfilled their part in the agreement. By not paying the Notary for a job completed, you are NOT fulfilling your part in the agreement. It is your obligation to pay for services rendered.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 1/11/08 2:10pm
Msg #230260

When the borrower doesn't sign, you can bet that the signing agent has spent quite a bit amount of time with the borrower -probably had to wait while the LO tried to sell the borrower on the loan terms over the phone. So, I believe the signing agent should still receive full fee even if the borrower decides not to sign.

Reply by Sharon Robinson on 1/11/08 2:53pm
Msg #230273

Thank you, that is my point exactly. I so appreciate everyone's response to this very important issue as it could affect all of us if it were to become universally practiced.
What's strange is that they do put in bold that they will pay 1/2 for a borrower no show, but the part about not paying for non funding loans is not.

Reply by Burton Georgia Loan Closers.com on 1/11/08 2:58pm
Msg #230274

Sound reasoning....

Reply by Sharon Robinson on 1/11/08 2:39pm
Msg #230269

As I have said before, I think you should notify everyone in a general email of your policy change, and put it in BOLD on your confirmations.
But the PRINCIPLE remains the same:
Signing companies should not be in the practice of not compensating their notaries for a job performed properly. We should be compensated for services rendered even if it's a reduced fee.
They should not be inducing lenders with advertising 'If your loan doesn't fund...NO FEE!' on the backs of hardworking notaries.

Even if I had been paid and just found out today of your policy of non-payment I would not work for you again on the principle of what you are doing to our industry.

Reply by MonicaFL on 1/11/08 3:34pm
Msg #230281

I guess we could all follow Notaries Express' policy and not pay our light bills, phone bills, etc. because maybe this month my company didn't pay me any overtime and because of that I am going to take it out on the light company, phone company, etc. What do you think would happen to your phone service or light service if you did that? They would cut you off. Now you companies who think that if the LO doesn't do his/her job and the loan doesn't close, well we will just take it out on the notaries because they couldn't convince the borrowers to sign (which is NOT, i repeat NOT our job and it is against the law since we are not lawyers (and I think that if we tried to pursuade borrowers to sign, even if the L/O screwed things up or tried to pull a fast one on them) would be practicing law without a license. You companies need to get some balls and charge properly and QUIT taking the notaries for a ride!!!!

Reply by Sharon Robinson on 1/11/08 2:31pm
Msg #230268

No need to be sorry. My contention is the principle that every signing agency should inform the notary of their policies up front and in BOLD so that we can make informed decisions. I for one will not risk my time and resources without an assurance of some compensation, I will not work for free. I'd hate to think people are so desperate that they would reduce our industry to wishful thinking.

Reply by SoCal Signing Co. on 1/11/08 5:17pm
Msg #230298

if a signing company has a policy like this, they are financially desperate, and should be avoided.
The step after this will be, if you make any errors we do not have to pay you. then, if we are broke we do not have to pay you at all either, if you trip on your way into the borrowers house, we do not have to pay you.

A signing company must have the financial backing to cover loses.

Reply by Margaret Paddock on 1/11/08 9:06pm
Msg #230318

Thank you so much for sharing this. I did several signings for them in Dec. - one I am very upset about because there were 4 loans for one person - all diff. addresses and Svitlana wants to pay me only $40 ea for two of them.
I will never work for them again. This was a big mess and I am the one who did the work to sort out the loan packages as I printed - they came late - I printed until 1am then got up & met borrower at 7am - did signings and got treated this way. No thanks! I just hope they all closed. I learned my lesson - I am not doing special favors for any signing company ever again.

Reply by WDMD on 1/12/08 5:26am
Msg #230348

"I learned my lesson - I am not doing special favors for any signing company ever again."


Funny how the favors always seem to end up one sided.