Posted by canotarygal on 1/2/08 1:56pm
Msg #228651
Scared in Ca.
I recently came back to the loan signing notary profession. I am a mom and a wife and I need a job that is flexable, with my time. I stopped doing signings when a loan officer yelled at me. This was the first notary I did on my own. Normally I would go with the loan officer, just to notarize. Yes, I am scared, any advice? I have a Reverse Mortgage to do this week, and I am afraid. I remember in those classes I took they always said, Do Not Explain the Docs.! Do most L/O's expect you to anyway? Any professional feedback would be appreciated
| Reply by John_NorCal on 1/2/08 2:03pm
Msg #228656
First take a deep breath. Don't ever let a loan officer or anyone else yell at you for any reason. Take your time with the borrowers, explain the purpose of the document , then have them sign. If they have questions about their loan, have them call their loan officer. It's the loan officer who should explain in detail all the nuances of their loan.
| Reply by *** Amada Preciado*** on 1/2/08 2:09pm
Msg #228659
Thanks. I have been reviewing documents and the "jargon" in case it comes up, I can at least point to the right page. How is business in Northern Ca.? Assuming Nor. Cal., is for Northern California.
| Reply by kate_nortca on 1/2/08 2:07pm
Msg #228658
What exactly are you afraid of? Being yelled at again? I'm sure you are adult enough to realize that not everyone out there is nice whether it be the loan officer, borrower, the FedEx guy who picks up your docs..,you know what I'm saying.
But if you have not done anything wrong and are following instructions you should not need to defer to anyone. Just keep your composure, be a professional and do your job. You'll be fine.
Kate
| Reply by canotarygal on 1/2/08 2:10pm
Msg #228662
Thanks for the "tough love" Kate. I need to stop being such a " Chicken".
| Reply by kate_nortca on 1/2/08 2:16pm
Msg #228663
I hope I did not sound disrespectful. I did not mean to be snide at all. I just don't want you to think that you are in a subservient position here at all. I have been screamed at by loan officers before. I know it sucks. Sometimes I deserved it, other times the issue was borrower created and more often than not it was the failure of the title company or loan officer.
Just maintain your dignity and smarts and you will be great! I guess my perspective is if the LO really has a major issue with you that cannot be resolved they can find another notary and life will go on for you and there will be other signings.
Kate
| Reply by canotarygal on 1/2/08 2:18pm
Msg #228664
No, you were not disrespectful at all. Thanks and Happy New Year!
| Reply by desktopfull on 1/2/08 5:42pm
Msg #228690
Just a little curious, just how long were you a NSA before?
Especially since you now need to ask if it's okay for you to explain loan docs to a borrower or if it's okay for a LO to yell at you? It sounds more like your a newbie and are seeking info because your nervous about doing a closing you accepted. Do yourself a favor and use the orange search key and start with message #33325 and starting reading from there.
| Reply by Candy Nordquist on 1/2/08 7:56pm
Msg #228722
Hi Notary Gal,
Cute name! The best advise I can give you is JUST DO IT! I'm sure you will find out that its not as hard as you thought it would be. By the time you have done 10 signings, you will be a pro! Take your time and review the documents before you leave, and then again before you send them off. You will make a mistake some time in your career, we all do even though we won't admit it often, but most times it is easily fixed. Call me if you need a pep talk, I too live in California.
Candy
| Reply by CJ on 1/3/08 12:10am
Msg #228779
When people yell
it is because they are afraid they are not going to get their commission. It is not your job to explain the docs, but if you can, fine. Older people are also scared. Get the phone number of the LO, and for every question that comes up, just call the LO and say, "We have a concern". If it is your only job for the day, just take however long it takes, even if it takes hours. If they have to read every page, so what? When you are done, you will have learned so much, and your borrower will be so happy that you were so sweet and patient. Use your mom skills.
| Reply by desktopfull on 1/3/08 12:39am
Msg #228780
It is not your job to explain the docs, but if you can, fine
Oh come on now, you know NSA's aren't allowed to explain the docs unless we are also mortgage broker, loan officer, title officer or attorney. It's called practicing law without a license. I don't know about the state your from, but the Florida Bar wouldn't hesitate to bust a notary for giving advice to a borrower concerning loan docs. Not to mention the fact that the borrower, lender, or title company could sue you for giving the wrong explantion in civil court if it cost them the loan. Also, your E&O insurance won't cover you on that either. Never, ever give advice on a loan or explantions. Memorize this statement: "You need to call your loan officer and they will answer your questions."
| Reply by CaliNotary on 1/3/08 1:40am
Msg #228785
Re: It is not your job to explain the docs, but if you can,
"Oh come on now, you know NSA's aren't allowed to explain the docs unless we are also mortgage broker, loan officer, title officer or attorney. It's called practicing law without a license."
??? No it's not. Loan officers don't have law licenses either.
Our job IS to give a basic explanation of the docs. When you leave a signing they should have a pretty good understanding of what they just signed.
| Reply by desktopfull on 1/3/08 6:45am
Msg #228791
What do you consider a basic explaination?
Also, the LO explains because they are assigned by the lender to represent the lender who is licensed in the mortgage banking business. You know it's like Clinton saying "it depends on what "is" is. We aren't supposed to answer any question but where, on closing docs. Even the NNA got that right.
Our job is to verify the right people are signing the docs, get signatures, initials and dates on the docs in the proper place, notarize properly and return the docs to party or parties indicated. Anything other than this in FL will land you in a lot of potential trouble.
| Reply by jba/fl on 1/3/08 7:27am
Msg #228797
Re: What do you consider a basic explaination?
The purpose of this doc is, ie, 1003: your loan app. as taken by so & so (p.3) by telephone (p3); or any other 10-15 word spiel that will explain the purpose of the paper they are about to sign/initial. Again, only the basics, not specifics, except what I can point to and they can read and they can interpret.
| Reply by desktopfull on 1/3/08 9:39am
Msg #228812
Re: What do you consider a basic explaination?
These are legal documents, how could you possibly know the full purpose of a doc that the lender put in a package? What do you think will happen if the borrower feels that you weren't completely honest with them, or misled them with your explanation of the purpose of a specific document?
You are in fact advising on a legal document when you do this. You simply hand them the page and say this is your note, or mortgage, etc. You don't explain that one is a security instrument and the other a collateral instrument. If the borrower wants to know why they are signing something then they can get that explanation from someone licensed or authorized to give them the information. That means they talk to their LO, TC, or lawyer. My brother, who is a member of the Florida Bar, stated that you are risking a potential lawsuit in civil court and losing your commission by telling the borrower anything other than the name of the document or showing them where something is at in their documents. If you want to take the risks that up to you, I won't.
| Reply by jba/fl on 1/3/08 10:13am
Msg #228820
Re: What do you consider a basic explaination?
So you hand them the stack of docs and a pen and have them go at it?
| Reply by desktopfull on 1/3/08 1:36pm
Msg #228855
Re: What do you consider a basic explaination?
This absurd statement is the conclusion you came to from my comments. Go ahead and give explanations and define the contents of the packages you sign to the borrowers it's your choice. We both know how honest LO's, TC's, MB's and borrower's are, don't we, I just don't think it's worth the risk.
| Reply by Becca_FL on 1/3/08 10:42am
Msg #228825
Re: What do you consider a basic explaination?
"You are in fact advising on a legal document when you do this. You simply hand them the page and say this is your note, or mortgage, etc. You don't explain that one is a security instrument and the other a collateral instrument. If the borrower wants to know why they are signing something then they can get that explanation from someone licensed or authorized to give them the information. "
Balderdash! My friend, a judge, disagrees with your brother the lawyer. It is NOT UPL to say the mortgage is a security instrument..."Security Instrument" is written in BOLD on page 1 of all FM/FM/MERS Uniform mortgages. If the borrower does not understand that the mortgage is a security instrument, it could be argued that you should not notarize the mortgage because the borrower does NOT have a full understanding of the document.
You don't 'walk' your borrowers through the Note? If you are conducting your closings in this manner, you are doing a dis-service to the borrower and this profession, IMO.
| Reply by desktopfull on 1/3/08 11:42am
Msg #228836
Re: What do you consider a basic explaination?
When I hand the note to the borrower and tell them "this is your note please check it over and make sure it's correct," how is that a dis-service to the borrower. If the borrower says that the rate, payment, or prepayment penalty is wrong then we call the LO or TC, period. I've had to leave a closing because the husband flat out told the wife he would divorce her if she didn't sign the documents, he had lied to her about the terms and didn't know that she had to sign because he was the only one on the note, I called the TC and they told me to pick up the docs and leave as soon as possible. Was I supposed to sit there and explain the misconceptions to the wife and convince her to sign? No, that's not my job.
Please tell where in the notary laws that it states the notary is supposed verify that the party signing a document has a full and complete understanding of the document. To my knowledge we are supposed to make sure they aren't incapacitated, that they speak and understand the language the notary speaks, is signing of their own feel will and that there are no blank lines on the document being notarized. If that's the case, then I will surely change the way I do notarizations. Until then I will follow the advice of the family lawyer.
| Reply by Becca_FL on 1/3/08 12:23pm
Msg #228842
Re: What do you consider a basic explaination?
Well, let’s hope your family lawyer never has to represent you in front of my friend.
“Please tell where in the notary laws that it states the notary is supposed verify that the party signing a document has a full and complete understanding of the document.”
It’s in the “Governor’s Reference Manual For Notaries.” Ever heard of it? Page 28, “Assure that the Signer Understands the Document”
IMO, not only are you an incompetent NSA, you have also proved to be an incompetent notary.
How long have you been getting away with this ‘I know nothing’ attitude?
| Reply by desktopfull on 1/3/08 1:15pm
Msg #228850
Re: What do you consider a basic explaination?
I am not incompetent in either catagory. From the Governor's manuel pg. 28
"Assure that the Signer Understands the Document.
You are not responsible for the contents of the document; however, you should be satisfied that the signer has read and understands the document, and that the signer is competent and willing to sign. If the signer has unanswered questions about the document or its effect, you should refer him or her to an attorney and not notarize."
I believe that the paragraph underneath the heading is exactly what I said that I do, and it very clearly states that if there are any unanswered questions by the signer to refer them to their attorney, or in the case of a NSA to the proper authority which is their LO, MB or TC. Also, it clearly states that you are not responsible for the contents and thereby, you don't relate the meaning of the contents to the signer. It would appear that you and I have a different interpretation for that section, and it certainly doesn't mean that either of us is incompetent. Like most laws, there is an argument for many sides.
I ask the borrower's to check over their documents and if they have any questions to please let me know so that I can get their LO on the phone to explain any conflicts they have. If that make me a bad NSA then so be it, I will not explain or give the definition to any of the contents of a legal document to anyone when I am working in an official capacity as a notary. However, I will and do encourage the signer to read the contents and ask questions of the proper authority.
| Reply by Becca_FL on 1/3/08 3:10pm
Msg #228866
Re: What do you consider a basic explaination?
"If the signer has unanswered questions about the document or its effect, you should refer him or her to an attorney and not notarize."
Notice the word "effect." Pay attention to "questions about the document."
Now, read the following threads and get a grip on what the function of an NSA truly is. If, after reading, you still do not understand, please hang up your stamp and get a job. It's NSAs like yourself that tarnish the NSA profession. You have no business in this business if you can not facilitate a proper closing.
210767
210797
210812
210863
207487
207497
There are many more, but this should get you started in the right direction.
| Reply by desktopfull on 1/3/08 5:35pm
Msg #228888
Re: What do you consider a basic explaination?
Per Websters Dictionary: Explanation: to give reason for or cause of
The big difference that I see in this disagreement is that when I say "explain the docs," I see it as giving a definition and reason for the contents in the document, if a borrower wants to know why something is in their paperwork I'm not going to answer that question, I'm going to have them make a phone call. Pointing out the docs, to me, is not explaining them. Telling the borrower that the TIL shows their financing costs, what their payments are over the course of the loan, and that it indicates if there's a prepayment penalty or not is one thing, telling them how the company arrived at those figures and the reason they may have a prepayment penalty is quite another.
Considering the fact that I have been in this business for 7+ years and averaged (with doing the closings myself) over $60,000.00 a year net, I would say that my clients were very pleased with my job performance. The borrower's must have also been very happy as well, since many of them have refied several times and requested that the company send me to do their closing. Another thing, when the title officer's changed jobs they took my info with them and I was able to acquire new clients. Also, given that most of my closings take an hour to 1 1/2 hrs, I would say that I do a little more than "point and sign" with the borrower's. So I believe I will stick around a while longer. And I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point.
| Reply by Becca_FL on 1/3/08 5:57pm
Msg #228894
Re: What do you consider a basic explaination?
Then you DO explain the the docs! All of this BS over semantics?
| Reply by CaliNotary on 1/3/08 2:13pm
Msg #228857
Re: What do you consider a basic explaination?
"Was I supposed to sit there and explain the misconceptions to the wife and convince her to sign? No, that's not my job."
No, your job is to hand the note to the client and point out the loan amount, interest rate, monthly payment, prepayment penalty clause, interest rate change date, interest only period, and the grace period. You don't try to explain why they are what they are, you simply make sure that they've seen them.
Handing them the note and saying "look it over and make sure it's right" doesn't ensure they've seen all the important details. You have no idea what they read or what they miss.
| Reply by SueW/Tn on 1/3/08 6:56am
Msg #228793
I couldn't agree more Cali
If all you can do is point to a signature line and ask the BO to sign then you're a NP that acts as a courier and $40-50 is the going rate. LO's know terms and conditions and the reason why a specific rate is what it is. They do NOT understand NBS's etc. and I had one that attended a signing with me that didn't have a clue about the RTC! If you're referring the BO to the LO over every question your shelf life in this business will be very short.
| Reply by desktopfull on 1/3/08 9:48am
Msg #228815
Re: It is not your job to explain the docs, but if you can,
" Loan officers don't have law licenses either."
Your right, the lender's are licensed to do business in the state and the LO is authorized to speak for the lender. Therefore they can legally answer any question put to them by the borrower. The same applies to the TC or mortgage broker.
Our job is to identify the proper person to be signing, then execute the docs properly and return them per instructions. The borrower should already have a good understanding of what they are signing and if they don't they should be directed to an authorized person to clarify the situation for the borrower.
| Reply by MikeC/NY on 1/3/08 6:57am
Msg #228794
Re: It is not your job to explain the docs, but if you can,
You can explain or describe what the document is without giving any advice; there's no UPL involved in doing that. The point where you cross the line is if you go beyond a general explanation into what it means in their particular situation. For instance, I can tell someone the purpose of a compliance agreement; if they ask "but what happens if...", however, I would have to direct them to their LO or attorney for an answer.
The ABA is very clear on the subject of UPL - explaining the law in general terms is just sharing knowledge and is something anyone can do; applying that knowledge to a specific set of circumstances is practicing law, and is something only an attorney can do. Know your limits, and you won't have a problem.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 1/3/08 5:26am
Msg #228787
Re: When people yell
**it is because they are afraid they are not going to get their commission.**
I disagree.  Splitting hairs here, but they yell because they know they know they don't deserve their commission and hope that by yelling they can intimidate the notary into being some kind of salesperson who'll be scared and do whatever it takes to get the loan signed.
That's when the notary slows down their speech and speaks softly back to the LO as if talking to a raging child.
Like I said in an earlier post, this is a tough-talk business. If you are fearful of the words of jerks this job will drive you crazy.
| Reply by JanetK_CA on 1/5/08 2:39am
Msg #229023
"By the time you have done 10 signings, you will be a pro!"
Sorry, but I just couldn't ignore this -- and I'm surprised no one else said anything. I'm sure you wanted to be encouraging and meant well, but I just want to clarify a point. If you meant that by the time you've done 10 that you will have gained a significant level of confidence, then that's a whole 'nother story which I wouldn't disagree with. However, after 10 signings, someone will hardly have begun to know what they don't know, let alone have become a "pro". But you probably know that. I just want to make it clear to newbies that there is a lot more to learn about this than meets the eye. If you eventually want to succeed at this (and that's a tall order in this market), then you have to stay in learning mode - for years, if not forever.
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