Posted by BBuchler/CA on 1/14/08 1:37pm
Msg #230515

Why I'll take the $50 jobs

So, here I am a new SA, have read, ad nauseum, the postings on bazillion forums, and know business is slow, but also know there is business. I have read how the “lowballers” are killing the business. How they should be ashamed of themselves for taking signings for $40, $50, etc. Then I go back to signing up with every single signing service known to man, with the question asked on each and every one of them – how many loans have you done – and my big fat ZERO as the answer. And is the phone ringing off the hook – hmmm, let me listen, maybe it’s out of order, but don’t think so.

So you want to know who will take those lowball jobs – ME. There I said it – ME. Why in the world would I do that? One word – EXPERIENCE. Instead of putting down zero, over and over, and over again, I will be able to put down 1, 2, 4, 10. I know, I know, you won’t leave the house for less than $XXX. Well, it doesn’t pay me if I don’t leave the house. Would I love to make $150 – you betcha. I’d settle for $100. But with NO EXPERIENCE it isn’t happening. Nothing, nada. Yes, the services offering this work are making a bundle, yet don’t pay what the work is worth (to experienced people). Well, in terms of education – MINE – it is worth my taking these low paying jobs. There will be some restrictions on taking these jobs. Some costs need to be covered. I’m not a complete idiot J. (And as an aside, if you do a $150 job and they stiff you, didn’t you just do a job for nothing? Seems to me that I am reading a lot of comments from the “experienced” people who are getting stiffed left and right. But I digress.)

Yes, I can PAY to ride along with another notary ($175), better yet, I can actually do the work and get paid. At $50 a shot, I can see 4 clients and get 4 times the experience, for the same $175 (give or take). My “competition” isn’t going to mentor me, I’m on my own, completely understand. No problem. I’ll do it the old way, thru the school of hard knocks. I will read until my eyes hurt to learn what I need to learn to give 110%. I will go to the borrower’s house knowing that I have learned as much as I possibly can and also know that “stuff” may happen. That’s an education. Raise your hands those of you who’ve never had a problem at a signing, and never needed to educate yourself on how to fix it so it doesn’t happen again. That’s right. Stuff happens. Your experience lets you find a solution. Sometimes so does common sense. I don’t believe this is rocket science.

As for those “newbies” who take a job and then botch it, you did/do a great disservice to those of us who are also new and trying to break into this business. It is because of people like you that those of us who are far more diligent, and, dare I say it, professional, are lumped in with term “newbie” having such an awful connotation. It is why the signing services require 100 signings before you can become one of the “team”. It is why lenders and title companies will only work with experienced people, or services that provide experienced people. And, it is also why I will have to take the “lowball” jobs, because without experience nobody is going to hire me – with or without a “certificate.” A certificate, by the way, that only 1 signing service has asked about and wanted “proof” i.e. copy of the certificate.

Do I intent to stick to the lowball jobs – noooo. I will, eventually, be able to apply at the “good” places as I will have EXPERIENCE under my belt. Lucky for me they don’t ask – did you get that experience doing lowball jobs? They just want a number, other than zero, which is all I can put in the box for now.

Are all the companies going lowball? I don’t know, only those of you with EXPERIENCE can answer that. If your company pays you your rate, and intends to keep paying you your rate, you have no worries from little ole me. If, however, your company decides to lower its rate, only you can decide if you still want to work for the company or chalk them up to another “lowballer.” How much you are willing to lower your fees is not dependent upon me, it’s dependent upon “your” business plan.

Finally, offering something “cheaper” (for lack of better word) does not always mean offering something of lesser quality. I like to think of it as a loss leader. I will use it to market myself, get the jobs, get the experience, and then re-market myself – as EXPERIENCED.

Let the slings and arrows flow.

Barbara Buchler

Reply by Eric2OO2 on 1/14/08 1:48pm
Msg #230518

Good luck getting your new $50 client base to pay you more than the $50 fee you've established.

Reply by DebbieT on 1/14/08 1:50pm
Msg #230519

Did you get your commission through the NNA?

Reply by BBuchler/CA on 1/16/08 8:10am
Msg #230848

NNA

No Debbie, I didn't. But if you think that the NNA is the only company touting "Become A Signing Agent" then think again. If you type in Notary training, every single company that comes up ALSO touts becoming a signing agent. Every one of them.

I became a notary, again, based on my real estate profressor saying it was a good thing to do. She never mentioned signing agent. And since the "class" for the SA was right after the notary class, and only cost a bit more, I took it. I figured it would be a good addition to any services I wanted to offer. It wasn't then, nor now, a get rich idea in my head. It was just another service I could offer.

It was also clear to me after taking the class and reading the many forums that I was shortchanged on the training. It is why I have gone on to get more info, read a lot more. I also plan to take another class, an 8 hour one, to supplement what I have learned so far.

Barbara

Reply by sue_pa on 1/14/08 1:57pm
Msg #230520

don't you get it?

she starts with the $50 companies to learn on the job with no direct supervision (what a great country we live in) . Once she has experience, she can solicit the companies that pay higher and say good bye to the $50 ones. A $50 company that hires someone with no experience is never going to pay $150. A $150 company is never going to hire someone who has never touched a loan package.

Reply by Les_CO on 1/14/08 2:28pm
Msg #230533

Re: don't you get it?

However her “On The Job” training comes at the expense of the borrower, the Title Company, and the Lender, and gives the professionals in this business a bad name. Also giving the bar associations in every state more fodder for their “Attorney Only” lobbing campaign. I say “good luck” to the rest of us. When someone with no experience or background in the business, can take a two hour course, and go to someone’s home and say to questions “Gee I don’t know”, “I’ve never see that document before”, “I haven’t a clue” and the like. Then can say “I just deliver the documents; I haven’t the slightest idea of what they are, what they mean, and what the consequences are for you if you sign them. Just sign where your name is and I’ll notarize some of then, and send them back. If you have any questions call your LO.” And this “learning professional” can undercut all other NSA’s in her area “to get experience” while Hubby pays the bills. Yup! It’s a great country!

Reply by sue_pa on 1/14/08 3:00pm
Msg #230540

Re: don't you get it?

you're absolutely right. BUT, these companies (DiTech comes immediately to mind) lower their price to the signing service who in turn lowers it to the notary. Both DiTech and the signing service realize they are not going to get the most experienced agents every time. It's a calculated risk they take, you're right, at the expense of the borrower who generally doesn't realize a thing. Some companies hold your hand every step of the way and part of the reason is they are hiring the inexperienced. Entirely different business plans for companies that want experience and those willing to risk those with little or no experience.

Reply by Deborah Hicks on 1/14/08 4:30pm
Msg #230548

Re: don't you get it?

In my opinion it only looks bad on the person who performed the closing. I agree that not many companies are going to pay $150 if you don't have the experience so you have to start somewhere. Furthermore, there's this little thing call UPL (why would we explain the documents and/or the consequences of signing the document). Yes, we should know what the document is and what it means but it is not for us to explain it. That's why they have the choice of having it performed by an attorney.

Reply by Les_CO on 1/14/08 4:51pm
Msg #230552

Re: don't you get it?

There is a difference with having a through knowledge of the documents involved, the real estate law, the federal and state lending/finance laws, the differing notarial laws involved, and UPL. I’m not condoning UPL. But I do know vesting ain’t something I get at the tailor. And lien, ain’t something a building in Italy does.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 1/14/08 8:52pm
Msg #230594

Re: don't you get it?

What a lot of people don't get is the huge grey area between UPL "explaining" and "sign here". It's not about that. It's about knowing how to react to questions, for example, when things don't appear to be what they were supposed to be. There is an awful lot an experienced notary can do to straighten things out without "explaining" and being guilty of UPL. It involves knowing where to find the answers in the docs and knowing when what appears wrong is really wrong or is just a special circumstance presented in a way that isn't readily apparent -- and that's just an example.

Reply by Les_CO on 1/14/08 9:42pm
Msg #230602

Re: don't you get it?/Well said!!!! n/m

Reply by MikeC/NY on 1/14/08 9:51pm
Msg #230603

Re: don't you get it?

<< Furthermore, there's this little thing call UPL (why would we explain the documents and/or the consequences of signing the document). >>

A) Explaining the documents is providing information, which anyone can do.

B) Explaining the consequences of signing the documents is providing advice, which - unless you're an attorney - is UPL.

It's not an "and/or" thing - we can certainly do A, but we can't ever do B.

Reply by Les_CO on 1/15/08 10:24am
Msg #230670

Re: don't you get it?

So if the borrower asks you “what happens if I sign this jurat?” You can’t tell them that they are swearing under oath to the content, and what could happen if they lie? Or “The income figures on this 1003 are incorrect. What happens if I sign it anyway?” What do you say “call a lawyer.” Or, I don’t know, I’m just a Notary? Come on guys.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 1/15/08 2:16pm
Msg #230709

Re: don't you get it?

<< So if the borrower asks you “what happens if I sign this jurat?” You can’t tell them that they are swearing under oath to the content, and what could happen if they lie? >>

You can certainly tell them that they are swearing under oath - that's fact, not advice. As to what could happen if they lie - I have no idea, do you? Why would I tell them the penalty for lying if I don't know what it is? And even if I DID know the exact penalty, that would be applying the law to their specific situation - UPL. That part of the question requires legal advice.


<< “The income figures on this 1003 are incorrect. What happens if I sign it anyway?” What do you say “call a lawyer.” >>

I have no idea what happens - do you? Again, even if I DID know the exact penalty, that would be applying the law to their specific situation - UPL. That question requires advice I can't give - so yeah, call your LO or call a lawyer.

In fact, in the few instances where a BO has questioned the figures on the 1003, my response has been something along the lines of "I don't know the details of the loan; if something doesn't look right, let's get your loan officer on the phone and have him explain it to you." I find that's more effective and professional than just saying, "I dunno - you have to sign this or your loan won't fund."

Reply by Les_CO on 1/15/08 4:39pm
Msg #230738

Re: don't you get it?

Yeah Mike I’ve got a pretty good idea of what COULD happen, if the borrowers perjure themselves under oath, and if they commit fraud when applying for a loan (especially from a federally insured bank). But…. I give up!!! You do it your way, and I’ll do it mine.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 1/15/08 10:10pm
Msg #230828

Re: don't you get it?

Les, my point was that there's a fine line between providing information and providing advice. You need to choose your words carefully; telling them, in your capacity as a notary, what might happen to them if they take certain actions could leave you open to charges of UPL, because you're applying your knowledge of the law to their specific situation. I understand that this may not make sense in some situations, but that's the way it works and it's something that was drummed into us when I was training as a paralegal.

If you're comfortable doing it your way, then by all means go for it; I know where the UPL line is, and I'm careful not to cross it.

Reply by Les_CO on 1/16/08 10:50am
Msg #230873

Re: don't you get it?

Thanks for the input! I’ll be careful. I usually give a sort of “canned” presentation/explication of the docs to the borrower. I hand them the document, with ‘my’ brief words as to what it is, and what is required of them (sign, initial, swear to, etc.)
Last year I did a ‘signing’ for a senior staff attorney for the Colorado Attorney General’s office, in her office. I treated her as I do everyone else. I guess if the UPL police were going to come after me, she would be a good place to start. Did I mention that I’ve been in this business for some time, and that one of my lady partners a practicing attorney? Anyway…..thanks for the advise.

Reply by BBuchler/CA on 1/16/08 8:18am
Msg #230850

Re: don't you get it?

"When someone with no experience or background in the business, can take a two hour course, and go to someone’s home and say to questions “Gee I don’t know”, “I’ve never see that document before”, “I haven’t a clue” and the like. Then can say “I just deliver the documents; I haven’t the slightest idea of what they are, what they mean, and what the consequences are for you if you sign them. Just sign where your name is and I’ll notarize some of then, and send them back."

Gee Les, nice of you to lump all of us with no experience into one giant bowl. Sorry to disappoint you, but those sentences are not anything I would ever say. However, for $50 that is exactly what somebody may say, and I'm not sure they'd be wrong. When I buy clothes at K-Mart nobody approaches me, asks me how I'm doing, if I need anything, or can they help me. If, however, I go to Nordstroms, they do everything but take my pulse. I buy better clothes at higher prices. I expect that because, well, it's Nordstroms and not K-Mart.

SS want Nordstroms, then they'll go to the more experienced people. But if they are only willing to pay $50, they'll have to take K-Mart. Doesn't mean they won't get clothes, doesn't mean the clothes won't fit. Doesn't mean the clothes are ugly. Just means the clothes are not the same quality as at Nordstroms. Some people can live with that, some can't.

Barbara

Reply by BBuchler/CA on 1/16/08 8:37am
Msg #230853

Re: don't you get it?

Exactly.

And it's not like I'd rather NOT get $50 bucks. But then, ask youselves a question. You've done this for 1000 years, you've done a bazillion loans, you get $150. I've done one, for 3 months. I get $150. Does that sound right? Should an apprentice get the same as a journeyman? If so, then people don't matter, just the documents. Across the board it is $150, doesn't matter your experience, professionalism, ethics. Everyone gets $150.

But then I guess that would justify those getting MORE than $150. Say $250. I'm all for that, but shush, don't tell anyone. We'll just keep it to ourselves.

Reply by BBuchler/CA on 1/16/08 8:02am
Msg #230846

Good luck . . .

Hmmm, I don't believe my "client" base will remain at $50 as my experience grows. At some point I, too, will have to say no. Then these $50 "clients" will cease to exist, for me.

You can go to K-Mart or you can go to Nordstroms. Right now I go to K-mart. My goal is to be able to go to Nordstroms.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 1/14/08 2:12pm
Msg #230525

This may not be the answer you expect. but I am one....

of the "experienced NSAs. (10 years, 10,000+ plus signings
and still doing doing 100+/month) .
You make some valid points. Experience can not be gained in a vacuum.
If someone is willing to take a chance on you , then best of luck to them.
You much keep in mind, however, that you are dealing with real people in
the real world. If you totally screw up an assignment , it can have VERY serious
financial and other repurcussions for the lender, the borrower, the TC the
SS , the L/O and others. It ain't brain surgury, but a certain level of knowledge
and common sense is expected and necessary.
If you aren't sure what you are doing, you should know when you need to ask for help.
The only dumb question, is the one that you don't ask , just before doing something
really dumb.
The only question as to how much you need to make a job worth taking is
"does it work for ME???? considerig all relevant circumstances .
I believe that most regulars are act in good faith, and are not trying to be
mean to newbies. They , in most cases, are just trying to give a dose of relaty to them.
Good luck to you. This is a tough business , but it has been and will continue to be
very rewarding. It never has been a never will be an easy way to riches.
A very wise person once told me "The hardest work you will ever do , is
to make an easy buck"

Reply by PA_NOTARY on 1/14/08 4:45pm
Msg #230550

Bob, your still doing 100 closings a month

that's incredible, what's your secret? lol

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 1/14/08 11:58pm
Msg #230618

Secret????

My professionalism, my experience, the high quality of my work, my reliability,
and also.............
My uncanny to resemblance to Brad Pitt (lol)

Reply by WDMD on 1/15/08 5:29am
Msg #230624

Re: Secret????

"My uncanny to resemblance to Brad Pitt (lol)"

I guess you don't mind when companies ask for your picture then.

Reply by BrendaTx on 1/15/08 7:06am
Msg #230631

Re: Secret????

**My uncanny to resemblance to Brad Pitt (lol)**

I've seen his picture. It's amazing.

Reply by Rachel/ORWA on 1/14/08 2:14pm
Msg #230526

I would hire an articulate, intelligent, diligent woman as you appear to be, from your post (if I were a SS, which I'm not). I'm not in agreement with you on the $50 signings, but I can't speak to urban-area competition, so I'll leave that alone. However, have you thought about leaving the question regarding number of signings blank? That might stand out less than the "0" you're currently entering. Best of luck to you.

Reply by BBuchler/CA on 1/16/08 8:23am
Msg #230851

"However, have you thought about leaving the question regarding number of signings blank? That might stand out less than the "0" you're currently entering. Best of luck to you."

Yes, and I have. I don't think that is fooling anyone.

If I'd done 1200 signings I'd be eager to put that in the box. If I'd done 100 signings, ditto. But I can't put those numbers. And on a few boxes they won't let you move forward until there is a number there. Oh, there are the ones that ask "0-50, 0-100" and those I love. But I think I can count on one hand the signings services that don't require or ask the question.

Reply by LKT/CA on 1/14/08 2:41pm
Msg #230538

You do not have to accept $50 signings

It is a myth that the newbie has to take $50 signings. My first signing I got a call from a Realtor who said someone gave her my card. ???? I charged $110 for a 1st purchase. It was not ideal situation for a newbie.....docs were already at Real Estate office, no time to review them, or put arrows where borrowers needed to sign. Calpers and other forms not seen in loan signing class or workshop so I couldn't say to the borrowers, "This is the ___________". I just sat down and went to work. This was my first signing.

After everything was signed, I went back over the docs at the table, one by one and very slowly. I missed 2 signatures and 3 jurats because there was no venue and just a single line amongst the text that said "Sworn and subscribed....... and no line for the Notary's signature. Therefore, it looked like part of the document text. I caught all of my mistakes.

The check I received two weeks later was $175 !!!!! Remember, I said I only charged them $110.

It is a myth that the newbie is reduced to accepting lowball fees to gain the experience. Establish your fee schedule now based on what is cost effective for you to do business because when the market changes and you've been working for $50, companies you've worked for will expect to pay you that same amount. Is $50 cost effective for you to do business and still earn a profit?

Reply by Marlene/USNA on 1/14/08 3:39pm
Msg #230542

You were LUCKY.

Someone gave them your card, implying a reference and experience.

Did you tell them you'd never touched a loan package before?

Reply by LKT/CA on 1/14/08 4:20pm
Msg #230547

Re: You were LUCKY.

<<<Did you tell them you'd never touched a loan package before?>>>

No, I didn't volunteer any information. I was just so happy that someone finally called me, I was doing cartwheels all through the house. :-)

Reply by Karen/OK on 1/14/08 5:40pm
Msg #230560

Re: You do not have to accept $50 signings

I could not agree more. Set your fee schedule now.

Reply by BBuchler/CA on 1/16/08 8:31am
Msg #230852

Fee schedule

"I could not agree more. Set your fee schedule now."

Have a fee schedule. It's all printed out and posted, looks lovely on the wall. Showed it to all my friends. Hmmm, no phone ringing. Doesn't the signing services want to see my fee schedule. But it's so purdy.

And it also isn't worth the paper is it written on, if nobody will call to see what it is. That little zero box - well, it's bigger than my purdy fee schedule.

Once I can put something other than that big ole zero, my "fees" will rise accordingly. And I will stick to my fee schedule. Right now, my "fees" are "their" fees. I can live with it.

Reply by desktopfull on 1/16/08 9:18am
Msg #230859

Re: Fee schedule

When it comes down to making that mortgage payment and keeping a roof over your head, food on the table and transportation so you can work, I have to agree with you. Right now, my "fees" are "their" fees. I can live with it.

Reply by Maureen_nh on 1/14/08 5:12pm
Msg #230555

Everybody BETTER be nice to you.
With your attitude, we'll all be working for you some day--Yes, Ma'am

Reply by CaliNotary on 1/14/08 5:23pm
Msg #230557

"Are all the companies going lowball? I don’t know, only those of you with EXPERIENCE can answer that."

Not all, but a lot are, even some of the good ones.

There's a company with a very good reputation on this board who I've done a lot of work for in the past at fair fees. Now they want to know where I'm willing to travel for $75, including edocs. (My answer: nowhere). They can now only get $100 per signing from First American Title, so of course it trickles down.

And of course, they have the luxury of being able to adjust what they pay out so they can still make money on each signing. We don't have that luxury, our gas, paper, etc. all remains the same cost no matter what we're getting paid.

And yes Barbara, the lowballers are killing the business. The same principle applies to the title companies and signing services as it does to us. Which is why at least one branch of a MAJOR title company like First American Title is only willing to pay $100 to a signing service now. Because if that one doesn't take it, there are 100 other desperate ones out there who will gladly take it. And they'll see no reason to revise their fees once business eventually picks up again.


"As for those “newbies” who take a job and then botch it, you did/do a great disservice to those of us who are also new and trying to break into this business."

Yet you're advocating that newbies don't pay another notary to go out on signings with them and get some actual training, but that they should do the $40 and $50 jobs by themselves to get experience.

And how do you know that you're not going to be one of the newbies who botches a job too? I'm sure the other newbies who have screwed things up royally thought that they knew what they were doing too, what makes you any different?

Reply by claudine osborne on 1/14/08 8:40pm
Msg #230591

Barbara, No slings or arrows from me..

I wish you good luck..Sounds like you have spunk..My only complaint is..You may take the $ 50.00 jobs and get the experience.

But when you get experience and want to charge more, guess what? When those same $50.00 companies call you, thats what they will offer you, because thats what you accepted in the past!! Please do yourself a favor stick to a higher fee schedule!

Reply by Burton Georgia Loan Closers.com on 1/14/08 8:50pm
Msg #230593

Price Competition

When you accept a $50 job, you really should look at your opportunity costs. Ask yourself, am I able to earn more elsewhere? Realize that $50 is not net profit as you have equipment repairs, toner, paper, and, very importantly, what you could be earning elsewhere for the same amount of money during that time period. If you are desperate, as many notaries are, then you have to do what you have to do until you can do what you want/need to do. Keep the fox away from the henhouse! As a long-term strategy, being cheapest is a miserable marketing strategy. Ask any gas station in a gas war!

Burton F.

Reply by Calnotary on 1/14/08 9:03pm
Msg #230596

BBuchler/CA...

I don't know where you are located, but you can take all the 50.00 dollar signing in my area!

Reply by FeliseSoCal on 1/14/08 9:26pm
Msg #230598

I took the $50 jobs too, when I was new and wanted to get experience. So I can totally understand your position. However, signing companies should be aware that for $50, that's what they are getting...an inexperienced signer. You get what you pay for.