Posted by VioCa on 7/31/08 10:01pm
Msg #258042

I have a question

and would appreciate any input. I had a borrower today that I refused to notarize and the reason for I decided to do so was because I only could match the name on the docs with a combination of his Driver's License and Passport. There were four names and a Jr on the docs and on each ID only three or missing the Jr. Not even on the SS card (which I cannot accept I know that) the name matched the docs. Now, I could see that the pictures matched my borrower on both ID's but I was wondering if in some circumstances it could be up to the Notary to go ahead and proceed with the notarization based on personal judgment. Probably not, I am pretty sure of that but I would like to see some other opinions. Thank you

Reply by MW/VA on 7/31/08 10:10pm
Msg #258043

For notarization, the notary needs to be satisfied that the person is the person named
(through personal knowledge or identification). For loan docs, the name that's on the docs is the issue of how it's listed on title & what the title co. requires. I hope you contacted them about the issue before you left the signing.

Reply by VioCa on 7/31/08 10:26pm
Msg #258048

In California personal knowledge is not acceptable anymore and the law clearly states that the name on the identification presented should match the docs. More on the id is acceptable, less is not. In my case there was less on both IDs presented. What do you do when a person appears with three forms of id with a different name on each of them? It is not stated anywere that you can put two forms of id together and notarize if you obtain the name on the docs by doing that.

Reply by Michelle/AL on 7/31/08 10:18pm
Msg #258045

Something similiar to this happened to me tonight

But fortunately the Borrower was able to locate one U.S. Govt ID card with with the name that corresponded with the docs. Had I been in your shoes I would've called the Title/Signing company from the appt to see what, if anything could be done to salvage the closing. Alabama is very generous about forms of ID Notaries can use to perform a notarization. If accepts the alternate forms of ID then it's a win/win for everyone.

Reply by VioCa on 7/31/08 10:30pm
Msg #258050

Re: Something similiar to this happened to me tonight

That was the problem Michelle, he could not present one form with all the names on it. I can give you an example. On the docs John Michael Doe Jones Jr, on the driver license John Michael Jones Jr and on the passport John Doe Jones. On top of that the SS card John Michael Doe Jones

Reply by SheilaSJCA on 7/31/08 10:30pm
Msg #258049

The identity of the person making the acknowledgment must be established by specified documents, which you did see, a valid Drivers License and Passport-

As per the CA 2008 Notary Handbook:
When completing a certificate of acknowledgment or a jurat, a notary public is required
to certify to the identity of the signer of the document (Civil Code sections 1185(a), 1189,
Government Code section 8202). Identity is established if the notary public is presented with
satisfactory evidence of the signer’s identity. (Civil Code section 1185(a))

Satisfactory Evidence – “Satisfactory Evidence” means the absence of any information,
evidence, or other circumstances which would lead a reasonable person to believe that the
individual is not the individual he or she claims to be. This is right out of the handbook.


....so did you not believe it "reasonable" o believe, they were who they claimed to be, based on the information you had?
What they presented to you, did not lead you to feel it was "Satisfactory Evidence"?

You either believe them to be who they say they are, or you do not believe they are who they say they are, it really is your call.

Reply by VioCa on 7/31/08 10:36pm
Msg #258052

Satisfactory evidence is the ID presented, I can only be sure if I have one Id with all the names on it, the Jr on one and no Jr on the other two made me feel that I cannot be sure and proceed. Yes, I called the title co and offered to go back if they bring two credible witnesses, which the borrowers agreed to do and the Title co said no, the docs have to be notarized the way they are

Reply by SheilaSJCA on 7/31/08 10:42pm
Msg #258055

Read the exact wording I gave from the 2008 handbook it says

exactly what satisfatory evidence is:
"“Satisfactory Evidence” means the absence of any information,
evidence, or other circumstances which would lead a reasonable person to believe that the
individual is not the individual he or she claims to be, as long as one ID had the JR. I would probably have felt he was who he said he was.
Of course, I wasn't there, and vibes are sometimes felt, which can affect your overall impression.
The handbook does not say satisfactory evidence is the ID presented.

Reply by CaliNotary on 8/1/08 12:19am
Msg #258070

"Yes, I called the title co and offered to go back if they bring two credible witnesses"

If you're going to be such a stickler for the handbook regulations (which isn't a bad thing mind you) then you should know that credible witnesses wouldn't be able to be used in this situation. One of the CW requirements is that the borrower doesn't have ID, and you've already stated that's not the situation here.

Reply by Terri_CA on 8/1/08 1:50pm
Msg #258170

Actually, there is nothing in CA notary Handbook that states that the Notary cannot accept CW's if they've already been presented with unacceptable ID.

Handbooks states that if they do not "possess acceptable" ID (which it seems they did not); then the use of CW's is acceptable. Besides, how does one know that the ID is unacceptable if they haven't seen it

Terri
Lancaster, CA

Reply by SheilaSJCA on 8/1/08 6:20pm
Msg #258228

credible witness

Terri- not sure which version of the CA notary handbook you are referring to, but according to the 2008 CA Handbook on page 12 it clearly states under item #4. as one of the requirements needed to satisfy the need to use CW's
"The signer does not possess any of the identification documents authorized by law to establish the signer’s identity;" .
This is what is written, it does NOT say that if they ID they have is lacking in the correct information, that we can use CW's, but only IF they do not possess ANY of the documents authorized to establish their identity. This clearly is not the case, when signers DO have the ID, it just doesnt add up.

Reply by CaliNotary on 8/1/08 8:33pm
Msg #258241

Re: credible witness

It seems quite clear to me, and apparently to you too. Why do you think so many people on this board have decided to interpret it as meaning the names being unacceptable and not the ID itself being unacceptable?

Reply by SheilaSJCA on 8/1/08 6:20pm
Msg #258229

credible witness

yes there is Terri- not sure which version of the CA notary handbook you are referring to, but according to the 2008 CA Handbook on page 12 it clearly states under item #4. as one of the requirements needed to satisfy the need to use CW's
"The signer does not possess any of the identification documents authorized by law to establish the signer’s identity;" .
This is what is written, it does NOT say that if they ID they have is lacking in the correct information, that we can use CW's, but only IF they do not possess ANY of the documents authorized to establish their identity. This clearly is not the case, when signers DO have the ID, it just doesnt add up.

Reply by CaliNotary on 8/1/08 8:32pm
Msg #258240

They had a driver's license and a passport. They obviously did possess acceptable ID, it just wasn't an acceptable match of names for the notary.

Reply by SheilaSJCA on 7/31/08 10:36pm
Msg #258053

I think I would have accepted the different IDS

based on what you also wrote, with those exact examples givem, showing his name in slightly different formats, but with matching pictures and the real person matching the described description, if signatures matched too, I would believe him to be the person he claims to be. Why did you not feel he was who he claimed to be?

Reply by VioCa on 7/31/08 10:40pm
Msg #258054

Re: I think I would have accepted the different IDS

I will call SOS tomorrow and find out, but as far as I remember a friend of mine had a similar situation, he called SOS and was told that he cannot do it, it is ilegal to combine two forms of ID to obtain the name on the document.

Reply by SheilaSJCA on 7/31/08 10:52pm
Msg #258056

relying on more than one document

I would like to know where it is "said" that it is illegal to combine two forms of ID.
In fact, it is recommended that if you have questions about a person's ID, you should request a 2nd ID to aid in establishing their identity- That is just common sense. No law about that.
Calling the SOS is a good idea, but you will almost always get different answers to the same question, depending on who answers the phone, IMO, they are just a reliable as the NNA, when it comes to answers.
This is from the handbook as well
A: Paper Identifi cation Documents – Identity of the signer can be established by the notary
public’s reasonable reliance on the presentation of any one of the following documents.
The KEY word here is reasonable reliance-

Reply by VioCa on 7/31/08 11:02pm
Msg #258057

Re: relying on more than one document

You tell me, how can you be sure of someone's identity if he has three documents with three different names? It makes me wonder how could he get the ID in one name, the Passport and the SS card in a different name. Have you ever heard about fraud within families? What if the docs belong to some other member of the family that will later come after me. Can I be sure that it wont happen? No, I do not think so

Reply by VioCa on 7/31/08 11:17pm
Msg #258062

Re: relying on more than one document

One more thing, Id's are issued anywhere in the USA based on SS cards and that is why I asked to see it. None of the id's presented matched the ss card. It was a mess anyway, so I felt that I cannot get caught in the middle of it. Then why would the lender refuse the credible witnesses or maybe he wants me to take full responsibility in case of something happens.
No, I could not take the risk, it sounded fishy to me.

Reply by CaliNotary on 8/1/08 12:11am
Msg #258068

Re: relying on more than one document

"What if the docs belong to some other member of the family that will later come after me. Can I be sure that it wont happen? No, I do not think so"

Well if that's the case then you really shouldn't notarize anything at all. Of course you can't be sure, we can only go by what's in front of us.

My father and brother have the same first and last name, but my father has no middle name, my brother does have one. My brother could present valid ID that would allow him to have ANYTHING notarized that has my father's name on it. There would be no way for the notary to know, nor should we be expected to.

Don't overthink things. Our role is very specific and very limited, stick to that and ignore the "what if's" that pop into your head.

Reply by SheilaSJCA on 8/1/08 12:22am
Msg #258071

Re: relying on more than one document

Did his signatures match on the ID's? Did the address of the docs match his ID? Did the birthdate on his ID match the birthdate on the docs? Did he appear to be of the age indicated on his id? Did the physical description match? There is so much more to it, than just if the names are completely identical.
I have to agree that having a Jr, can be a "red flag", as such similar names between people with access to each others' stuff could leave one or the other more open to fraud.
His name may have been slightly different, on each ID, but it was also the same in some ways. That has to count for something. How many times have you seen ID, where the field wasn't long enough and a couple letters are cut off?
It is not that unusual for people to have ID's using first/last names , and on another ID having first/middle/last etc. People tend to forget what they have on one type, when they are getting another, and the issuing authorities do not insist on it being a certain way either. It doesn't mean they are not who they claim to be. But looking at the whole picture, will lead you to believe they are one and the same, or not.

I have to be reasonably sure, as the state says, that they are who they claim to be. It does not say you have to 100% sure, because that is impossible. It goes without saying, however, that the state would expect us to use common sense and not act out of fear.

And yes, I have had a few times where I did not accept the ID presented, and refused to do a loan closing.
I certainly would not risk my commission either. I am just asking you all the questions, that you need to ask yourself before you decide you cannot help them

Reply by Terri_CA on 8/1/08 1:52pm
Msg #258172

Re: relying on more than one document

Actually, DMV probably won't put more than three names on the DL and same with the Passport. Ever see their forms? One first name, one middle name and one last name section.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 8/1/08 12:10am
Msg #258067

Re: relying on more than one document

<<The KEY word here is reasonable reliance->>

While that my be partially true, I believe there is another even more important key word there that you are overlooking:

<<presentation of any **ONE** of the following documents>> [emphasis my own]

I think that supports what vioca is saying - and I think I would likely have done the same thing as her/him. And I recall checking this myself with the SOS office years ago and being told that it all needs to be on ONE form of ID.

<<it is recommended that if you have questions about a person's ID, you should request a 2nd ID to aid in establishing their identity>>

Recommended by whom?? The NNA?? And I'm confused about your comment about the SOS being just as reliable as the NNA -- or was that a facetious comment? (If so, I'd probably have to agree with you on that one... but not the other way around!)

BTW, just for the record regarding this statement by vioca above:

<<the law clearly states that the name on the identification presented should match the docs. More on the id is acceptable, less is not. >>

While I think this is good sense and a valid ethical guideline to follow, I don't believe the CA notary law clearly states this at all. (If I'm wrong, please advise where I'm missing this...)

Reply by SheilaSJCA on 8/1/08 12:44am
Msg #258075

Re: relying on more than one document

I was being facetious about the nna and the sos. The handbook says "reasonable reliance on the presentation of any one of the following documents"
My interpretation: "any one" of them can be used. It does not say only one, or just one, but any one, of the acceptable id's, which I read as more than one.
This is what the handbook says about the id matching the name on the document:
The individual appearing before the notary public as the signer of the document is the
person named in the document;

Reply by CaliNotary on 8/1/08 12:06am
Msg #258066

I would have accepted it

I actually had the same thing happen about 3 weeks ago, docs had wife with hyphenated last name. DL only had maiden name, passport only had married name.

Whether doing that actually complied with CA law I'm not sure, but she had legally acceptable identification that showed all three names so that was good enough for me.

Reply by VioCa on 8/1/08 12:31am
Msg #258072

Re: I would have accepted it

If SOS is an unreliable source than who can clarify for me their rules and regulations? I will give it a try and see what they say. I can even call twice, the chance is to get two different persons on the phone, so if the answer is the same than that is what I am going to do from now on.

Reply by CaliNotary on 8/1/08 12:37am
Msg #258074

Re: I would have accepted it

That's the whole problem with CA notary law, there are a lot of vaguely worded things in the regulations that are open to different interpretations. Even if you get 2 people from the SOS telling you one thing that doesn't mean you couldn't persons 3 and 4 tell you something else.

You need to use your own common sense and judgment when interpreting the regs. I'd trust that way more than I trust some random office employee on the phone who may or may not just be pulling an answer out of their a$$ just to shut you up and get you off the phone.

Reply by SheilaSJCA on 8/1/08 1:16am
Msg #258079

Vio- back to your original question

I agree with Cali-calling the SOS, doesn't always give you answers. Its up to you to decide, how to proceed, when faced with this sort of situation, which takes us back to your first post where you asked:
"Now, I could see that the pictures matched my borrower on both ID's but I was wondering if in some circumstances it could be up to the Notary to go ahead and proceed with the notarization based on personal judgment."
It almost sounds like you did believe that he was who he claimed to be, (but then you got scared, by all the hype about fraud, and decided to play it safe?)
I would say the answer is yes, you can use your own judgement based upon the facts presented to you and your own common sense.

Reply by John_NorCal on 8/1/08 1:05am
Msg #258077

I think Cali"s response hit the nail on the head....

don't overthink your job. I've seen so many examples of this, people tend to over think their job. I probably would have accepted the ID too.

Reply by VioCa on 8/1/08 2:06am
Msg #258081

Re: I think Cali"s response hit the nail on the head....

I do not think the law in California alows you to combine two or more id's to obtain the signer's name and in case of any law suit a good lawer can prove you guilty of not performing your duty as a Notary Public. How can I sign under the penalty of perjury something that I am not 100% sure it is correct. I am 95% sure but that is not good enough, there is this small percentage of doubt that wont let me sleep if I do it. Now, that is true, father and son can have the same name and I would not know about it but I have the proof that I notarized the name that I saw on the ID, it is on record with DMV and nobody can hold me liable for anything, I have done the best I could.

Reply by CaliNotary on 8/1/08 2:12am
Msg #258082

Re: I think Cali"s response hit the nail on the head....

"I have done the best I could. "

And there's your answer. You have a valid reason for not doing it based on your interpretation of what the law says. So stick to your guns, it's always better to err on the side that's going to cover your butt.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 8/1/08 10:23am
Msg #258121

4 Id's with different variations of his name?

With none of them showing his name listed on the docs. I'm with you on this one, I would punt this back to the TC and lender and let them figure out who they want to lend the $ to. Proceeding with caution, in this case was a good decision.

Reply by thnotary_NY on 8/1/08 12:00pm
Msg #258144

Re: 4 Id's with different variations of his name?

IMHO I'm with you. Any call to the SOS, under these circumstances, should be documented. However your first call should be, to Title or Lender maybe both, also documented, under these circumstances.

Reply by Gerry_VT on 8/1/08 2:37pm
Msg #258180

Fishy and reasonable reliance

If a notary really thinks a situation is fishy, then by all means walk away. Isn't that what we teach our children about dealing with strangers? But if a notary really feels the person in front of him/her is the right person, and just wants to find a way to satisfy state laws, I would think "reasonable reliance" takes into account the policies of the issuers of documents. Vermont won't put middle names on driver licenses, so if a document has a middle name that starts with the same letter as the initial on the license, and nothing else is out of kilter, that's close enough for me. If you discover that California and the U.S. State Department won't put more than one middle name on a license or passport, that should be considered. Law professor Edward Bander in his book "Change of Name and Law of Names" (1973, Oceana Publications) wrote "As a general principal of law, a person's middle name or initial is not considered of great consequence legally."

As for "Jr.", who is to say if that is really part of a person's name, or just a description to be used when convenient and omitted when inconvenient? There isn't even any agreement about whether the "Jr." disappears when the father dies. I'm sure you can find government agencies that will give you hassles over "Jr.", but that does not mean they are right; lots of petty bureaucrats have nothing better to do than create artificial barriers for the people they are supposed to serve. (Of course, I would refuse to notarize whenever the presence or absence of "Jr." creates genuine doubt in my mind about the identity of the person in front of me.)

Reply by VioCa on 8/1/08 5:36pm
Msg #258218

Re: Fishy and reasonable reliance

Well, that is not what the law is. Same concept as Notarizing a Married name when the id shows the maiden name and you see proof of marriage. It is a no no in California as of 01/01/2008, cant do even if you are pretty sure that you have the right person in front of you. Combining two or three id's to obtain the name on the docs is a no no according to the SOS. And then DMV puts on the ID how many names there are on the SS card, I have seen ID's with One first name, two middle names and two last names. It is good enough for me if it is an initial instead of the full middle name, but if it is missing than it is not ok

Reply by VioCa on 8/1/08 5:36pm
Msg #258219

Re: Fishy and reasonable reliance

Well, that is not what the law is. Same concept as Notarizing a Married name when the id shows the maiden name and you see proof of marriage. It is a no no in California as of 01/01/2008, cant do even if you are pretty sure that you have the right person in front of you. Combining two or three id's to obtain the name on the docs is a no no according to the SOS. And then DMV puts on the ID how many names there are on the SS card, I have seen ID's with One first name, two middle names and two last names. It is good enough for me if it is an initial instead of the full middle name, but if it is missing than it is not ok

Reply by VioCa on 8/1/08 5:37pm
Msg #258220

Re: Fishy and reasonable reliance

Well, that is not what the law is. Same concept as Notarizing a Married name when the id shows the maiden name and you see proof of marriage. It is a no no in California as of 01/01/2008, cant do even if you are pretty sure that you have the right person in front of you. Combining two or three id's to obtain the name on the docs is a no no according to the SOS. And then DMV puts on the ID how many names there are on the SS card, I have seen ID's with One first name, two middle names and two last names. It is good enough for me if it is an initial instead of the full middle name, but if it is missing than it is not ok