Posted by LaVonnda Cardwell on 7/19/08 10:15am
Msg #255912
What County goes in Acknowledgement?
Do I put my County in the Acknowledgement if I am signing in a differant County
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 7/19/08 10:18am
Msg #255913
The Venue is ALWAYS where the notarization takes place.
This is basic "Notary101", Please study your handbook and make sure you are FULLY conversant with TX notary laws.
| Reply by jba/fl on 7/19/08 10:46am
Msg #255916
This is esp. fun when you are near the county line...
ask the borrowers, they know where you are.
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 7/19/08 11:41am
Msg #255929
Re: This is esp. fun when you are near the county line...
LOL - I had one a signing once, and wasn't sure which county I was in. I asked the borrowers which county we were in and the husband said it depended on which room we were in.
| Reply by LaVonnda Cardwell on 7/19/08 11:02am
Msg #255921
I was told by another Notary I was doing it wrong... so I asked the ? to verify I was correct...
| Reply by davidK/CA on 7/19/08 11:37am
Msg #255925
Since this is such absolutely basic information that every Notary should know from the first day I suggest you call the other Notary and tell him/her to turn in their commission before they hurt themselves.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 7/19/08 11:37am
Msg #255926
http://www.sos.state.tx.us/statdoc/edinfo.shtml
Straight from our notary rules:
" 4. MAY I ALTER OR CHANGE THE INSTRUMENT I NOTARIZE?
To answer this question, a distinction must be made between the instrument and the acknowledgment. A Notary Public is not authorized to change, alter or draft any instrument. However, a Notary Public may correct the certificate of acknowledgment to reflect the proper facts. For example, if an acknowledgment is taken in Webb County and the certificate shows Marion County, the certificate may be corrected as follows:
The State of Texas
County of Marion (Marion is struck and "Webb" is inserted in the notary rules book.)
Before me, (Notary Public's name), a Notary Public, on this day personally ... etc.
MAY I PERFORM NOTARIAL ACTS IN OTHER COUNTIES?
Yes. A notary public has statewide jurisdiction and may perform notarial acts in any county in the state of Texas."
Though the Texas Educational Materials aren't as clear as "Step 1...Step 2...Step 3" if you read it several times through all of your questions about the basic notarizing documents will be answered.
| Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/19/08 11:39am
Msg #255927
LaVonnda..all due respect...
but you should have known exactly where to look in your handbook/regulations to prove that notary wrong...JMHO
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 7/19/08 11:46am
Msg #255932
LaVonnda, I am curious
Why someone with an "outstanding reputation" in the industry needs to ask such a basic question???
From your site:
About Me
Hello, I am LaVonnda Cardwell. I have been a traveling mobile Notary over four years and I have a real estate background of over seven years. I started Notaries-R-Us.com in Nov. 2003 with the hopes of being the best. We are achieving our goal and are now proudly serving many repeat customers as their Texas Loan Document Signing Company. We have an outstanding reputation in our industry with repeat customers referring us to others in the industry. Our customers look to us for incredible service for all their Loan Document Closings and Legal Document Signings. Our team of mobile Notary Public experts are here to serve you.
| Reply by ZeeCA on 7/19/08 11:55am
Msg #255934
Re: LaVonnda, I am curious --- Makes ya go HUH? n/m
| Reply by davidK/CA on 7/19/08 11:57am
Msg #255937
The plot thickens...
As I said in my previous post this "other Notary" should turn in their commission. I amend that statement and apply it directly to the original poster, LaVonnda Cardwell who obviously hasn't learned very much about the requirements of being a traveling mobile Notary in the last four years.
I don't know if Texas requires a class and/or a test to become a Notary Public but if this level of knowledge is what all that is required to become a Notary, then shame on those in power in that great state that would allow such ignorance to be acceptable qualifications.
Is this a flame? You bet. To think that this level of knowledge exists in such an important position of trust as a Notary Public just blows me away.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 7/19/08 12:03pm
Msg #255939
Re: The plot thickens...
**I don't know if Texas requires a class and/or a test to become a Notary Public **
Nope. However, we do have to go before another notary and swear that we are willing to properly fulfill our duties before picking up the stamp. The oath is combined with the original hard copy of the commission you receive in the mail.
That would seem to require one to read their handbook...taking such an oath and all.
In Texas there is such a laid back attitude about notaries that I don't think anyone cares what anyone does until there is a problem. Then there'll be hell to pay.
| Reply by davidK/CA on 7/19/08 1:39pm
Msg #255956
Re: The plot thickens...
This is why you can have TX Notaries that have zero basic knowledge, yet perform notarial acts as if they knew what they were doing and IMHO even worse hire other Notaries to do the same under the guise of being a "professional". That's scary. I sure wouldn't want to lose my house because so no-nothing Notary doesn't have the most elementary knowledge or skill.
Not that CA does everything so well, (I could cite so many bad examples) but at least here we have a required six hour notary class that of course is designed to "teach to the test", a 30 question multiple choice test that just happens to match the classwork, fingerprinting (all ten if you can count that high), criminal background checks and a required Notary Bond. And now even renewing Notaries must go back through the class and test so we have effectively achieved a modicum of a continuing education requirement for Notaries.
Unfortunately, even after all of that we have our share of incompetents, (after all we have about 250,000 Notaries in CA) so in that situation maybe TX is just skipping all the BS and going directly to the useless and unknowing, thus saving wear and tear on some of the pea brains that have infected the NSA business.
Sometimes, national standards like the standardized exams for CPA's are good ideas, especially when you consider the original question asked. It would be highly unlikely that a licensed CPA wouldn't know something about debits and credits, yet we have a State Commissioned Officer that can't fill out the first line on an Acknowledgement.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 7/19/08 1:50pm
Msg #255962
Re: The plot thickens...
David: CA-like testing doesn't seem to be the answer since we see daily CA silly questions.
I think all that testing does is a financial racket:
1) Provide notary class income
2) Provide live scan finger printers with income
3) Give a little something to the state for testing
4) Keeps the NNA busy in several ways
I wonder how legit the testing is when I see the questions here by CA notaries. Can't help it. I have been called by CA notaries who explained to me how classes can "guarantee" a passing test grade.
The corny notary questions are from all states. The ones from CA raise eyebrows.
I think it all depends on the person...whether or not they care enough to do the job right.
It's just a means to money to most. Stamp, sign, move on.
| Reply by davidK/CA on 7/19/08 2:32pm
Msg #255969
Brenda, you are correct.
AS we know "Stupid is as stupid does." If you don't care or don't want to care we will get Notaries who do a great disservice to their clients and themselves by not learning what to do, and why you must do it, or not do it. I guess every profession has their unqualified, but in this case we are dealing with the identity of a person signing a document of possibly great value and it should be done absolutely correctly, every time.
As to the effectiveness of the CA licensing procedures, I agree much of it is self-perpetuating poop designed by the legislature (in it's wisdom to serve The People) purely to benefit campaign contributors who stand to gain financially.
| Reply by Charles_Ca on 7/19/08 7:44pm
Msg #256009
Most CA classes teach people to pass the test not to be
notaries. That is a general failure of testing systems where organizations are allowed to teach the test and not the subject. There are many cram courses in various aspects of CA licensing including real estate and insurance. Cram courses only produce a temporary and very specific knowledge useful only for answering the test questions not for actually performing a task!
| Reply by LKT/CA on 7/19/08 10:09pm
Msg #256022
CA - notary class info could fade in 7 weeks
You have to realize that what a CA notary student learns in one day is forgotten in the 7 - 9 weeks it takes to actually receive the commission. After the test, you have to wait 7 - 10 days for the results. Once you know you passed, THEN the background check starts....this is another 6 - 8 weeks.
At least in my class, it would have been helpful if the instructor mentioned that it's a good idea to review the material at least once a week while waiting the 6 - 8 weeks it takes for the background check so the info will stay fresh in the mind. Did I think to do that on my own? Nah. Didn't know I'd forgotten a lot of it until I got my commission and then realized....I forgot a lot of stuff.
| Reply by JanetK_CA on 7/20/08 5:52pm
Msg #256063
Couldn't agree more with you, Charles and David on this one
Except that it doesn't take 7- 9 weeks to forget everything - it's only a matter of a few days before they've forgotten at least 70% of what they've supposedly "learned". I've long believed that it should be prohibited to have the test on the same day as the class. Remembering something for a few hours - long enough to pass a test - uses a different type of memory. For someone to really assimilate information, they should have some time go by and have to review it at least once before it becomes absorbed into long term memory. What we have now is a total farce.
I think I'm going to start keeping a tally of how many times I have exposure to another notary's work - and how often it's wrong. (Probably frightningly near 100%!) Saw another one yesterday. I had two signers come together from different areas to do a lease trade. (Interesting concept, btw. See www.leasetraders.com.) One of the guys had already had his signature notarized - except that the notary used the provided jurat verbiage that was from two changes ago! Plus, she stamped right over the date on the notary certificate! I ended up redoing that notarization on a separate attached certificate, since he was right there. (That isn't usually the case, naturally.)
What some notaries don't get is that if a document like that were ever to be contested in court, a smart attorney would raise the fact that it was improperly notarized. If the judge didn't throw it out on that basis alone, it would likely call into question everything else about the so-called notarization. (jmo... I'm not an attorney, etc.)
| Reply by HudsonBayCA on 7/19/08 2:00pm
Msg #255964
Re: The plot thickens...And that explains why . . . . .
I did a two-parter with one couple in Texas and the other in California and the Texas notary public had several errors in her notarizations so much so, I pointed them out to the mortgage company so as to cover my butt!
| Reply by Teresa/FL on 7/19/08 3:43pm
Msg #255974
Re: The plot thickens...And that explains why . . . . .
In the past two months I have had the pleasure of being the second notary on two split signings. Both were for Florida properties with the first part of the signings being done by attorneys in Connecticut and Georgia respectively.
In the Connecticut signing, the attorney struck a line through the name of the second signer under her signature lines instead of noting in the notarial certificates just the name of the signer whose signature he was notarizing. He also did not print/stamp his name and commission expiration date on two of his notarial certificates. I contacted the TC and they chose to email fresh signatures pages for the affected documents and had me obtain my signer's signatures on these separate pages.
In the Georgia signing, the attorney performed notarizations on three documents that contained blanks. This was a refinance of a mobile home and the mobile home rider must include serial and title #s as well as some other information.
I am assuming (and may not be correct in this assumption) that most, if not all, states prohibit performing a notarization on an incomplete document. At any rate, I had discussed the issue with the TC when I accepted the assignment and was assured that the pertinent information would be included since Florida law does not allow a notarization of an incomplete document. I was suprised when I received the package from GA and discovered the information was missing. I called the TC so I could get the correct information to fill in the blanks and then obtained my signer's signatures and notarized.
I do not know what training, if any, if required for attorneys in CT or GA to obtain a notary commission, but I don't know if required training or testing would have helped in these cases. IMO, it is really all about the notary caring enough about the job to do it right.
| Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/19/08 3:57pm
Msg #255978
Re: The plot thickens...And that explains why . . . . .
"In the Connecticut signing, ... He also did not print/stamp his name and commission expiration date on two of his notarial certificates"
As far as striking out the name, I agree that was incorrect. But, having worked in CT, I can tell you that CT attorneys don't have expiration date to fill in - they sign and notarize as Commissioner of the Superior Court and no expiration date is required.. Yes his name should have been printed there, but there is no expiration date that applies.
| Reply by Teresa/FL on 7/19/08 7:59pm
Msg #256011
Linda - he used a stamp with his name and commission
expiration date on all but two of the notarized documents. The stamp also had the title "Notary Public" not "Commissioner of the Superior Court." If I had not recognized the name I would not have known he was an attorney.
There were approximately ten notarizations in the package and I found it sloppy that he missed those two. In my cursory review of the CT Notary Manual, I did not see the difference between a general notary and an attorney notary. Thanks for pointing that out.
He also filled in a date for the borrower. It was obvious he filled it in because the date he wrote was not the signing date - it was his commission expiration date!
| Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/19/08 8:02pm
Msg #256013
Holy Smoke, Teresa...well, in the words of that famous
beer commercial...BRILLIANT!!!...
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 7/19/08 8:51pm
Msg #256015
Re: The plot thickens...And that explains why . . .. .Teresa
"He also did not print/stamp his name and commission expiration date on two of his notarial certificates."
Does Connecticut notary law require the notary to print their name under their signature?
I know for the mortgage to record in FL the notary's name must be printed under the signature.
But if CT does not require the name printed under the signature, then the other notarizations would have been fine. And I didn't see anything in the CT notary handbook saying the notary must print their name under their signature or print their commission expiration date.
| Reply by Teresa/FL on 7/19/08 9:41pm
Msg #256020
Re: The plot thickens...And that explains why . . .. .Teresa
The sample certificates do not indicate a need to print the notary's name, but it does include a blank for the commission expiration date, which leads me to believe that the exp. date is required.
He used an ink stamp that had:
(Notary Name)
Notary Public
Commission Expiration Date XX/XX/XX
Out of approximately ten notarizations, all but two had been stamped with this information.
| Reply by Teresa/FL on 7/19/08 10:02pm
Msg #256021
Sylvia - from the CT Notary Manual
4.12 The Notary's Signature
In any circumstance when a notary's signature is required, it must always be the original
signature of the notary signed exactly as the name appears on the notary's Certificate of Appointment. If a seal and/or stamp is not used, the notary should type, stamp or print legibly his/her name in close proximity to his/her signature. The notary cannot use a signature stamp, and no other person can sign on behalf of the notary.
4.13 The Notary's Seal
Connecticut state law does not require that notaries obtain and use a seal. Even though the use of a seal is optional, state law does prescribe the format of the seal to be used. The notary seal must include the notary's name as it appears on the their certificate of appointment, the words "Notary Public" and "Connecticut" as shown in Fig. 1. State law does give the notary the option of having the words "My Commission Expires (commission expiration date)" appear on the seal. However, most notary’s find that it is more practical to have their commission expiration date appear on a separate rubber stamp
along with their name, and title of notary public as shown in Fig. 2.
Fig. 1 Form of Notary’s Seal Fig. 2 Form of Notary’s Rubber Stamp
All seals and stamps are obtained from private vendors at the notary's own expense and always remain the property of the notary. This is true even if the notary’s employer paid for these items. The only person who has the authority to possess and use a notary's seal and/or stamp is the notary whose name appears on the seal. When using the seal, the impression should be affixed near, but not over, the notary's signature. The stamp bearing the words "My Commission Expires" should be placed below the notary's signature
and the notary must write in the date on which their commission expires, unless the date appears on the stamp. It is important for the notary to remember that he/she must sign his/her name exactly as it appears on his/her certificate of appointment and notary seal.
I believe this shows the requirement for the notary's name to be printed below or near their signature and their commission expiration date to be included as well.
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 7/19/08 10:35pm
Msg #256023
Re: Sylvia - from the CT Notary Manual
"If a seal and/or stamp is not used, the notary should type, stamp or print legibly his/her name in close proximity to his/her signature. The notary cannot use a signature stamp, and no other person can sign on behalf of the notary.
4.13 The Notary's Seal
Connecticut state law does not require that notaries obtain and use a seal. "
So they are not required to use a seal, and if they don't use a seal they must, in some form, print their name near their signature.
So, I guess, in the signing you were referring to in your previous post the CT notary didn't use a seal. Then, yes, they should have printed their name close to their signature.
| Reply by BobbiCT on 7/20/08 7:50pm
Msg #256064
CT attorney "notarizing" a document ...
Late to the party and too happily tired from vacation to read the whole thread. I don't know the specifics of your document, but here's a generalization (not an attorney, personal opinion/response and could be totally OT).
CT attorneys do NOT have to be notaries public to perform notarizations; signature only required.
A CT attorney who performs a notarization doesn't have a "commission" that expires, so no expiration date, and is not required to have a seal or stamp. Of course, the professional will print or have their secretary type his/her name under his/her signature and type witnesses names under their signatures - unless there's a hurry to the FedEx pick up and the secretary forgets or just doesn't do it! (Grrrr ... happens more often than not both outgoing and incoming.)
CT notarization requirements and notarization blocks are different than Florida. CT attorney probably figured, as all attorneys handling transactions involving multiple states and signers: ONE individual notarization block in compliance with CT's laws for my signer and me, the attorney; the next attorney in the next state adds his/her compliant notarization block for the signers in his her state, and so on down the line until all parties have signed. From a law firm perspective, each set of signatures has its own signature lines, witness requirement lines, and space for that state's notarization block - beginning with the first signer and moving on state by state.
Not a lawyer, just work with them on multi-state, multi-signing transactions daily. My firm has offices in Florida and most of our CT attorneys are admitted to practice there. Because CT requires TWO forms of identification, which are INTENTIONALLY NOT listed in our notarization blocks, and FL requires ONE form of ID which must be listed in the notarization block, we prepare a CT notarization block for the CT signers and an FL notarization block for the FL signers - also make sure there are appropriate witness lines depending on type of document. As an example: No CA attorneys on staff, so if a CT attorney is sending something to CA after CT signers are done, we will add a BIG BOLD cover page to document to CA attorney to add proper acknowledgment blocks for CA signers. CT attorneys wisely believe, let the CA attorney practice CA law or the CA notary who knows CA law provide a CA compliant acknowledgment rather than CT attorney "guessing" or "researching CA law just to have a secretary type, attorney proofread, and send a document with a CA acknowledgment that may be incorrect if research is not current to the moment in time." I use CA as a perfect example: documents passing through various states last December hit California in January, not December as expected, AFTER the CA notarization laws changed; i.e., why would a smart CT attorney GUESS which month the document MIGHT be signed in CA when we can get it "right" by not attaching the "wrong" CA acknowledgment and eliminate the liability on the CT attorney if the CA notary uses the incorrect form "because the attorney choose the acknowledgment and instructed me, a non-attorney, to use it." (I wouldn't do it; but we all know that are notaries in every state that haven't a clue and just 'sign and stamp'.)
P.S. The 2002 CT Notary Public Handbook is NOT current; you need to look to the Conn. General Statues for the notarization blocks added in 2004. The Handbook is still being used; SOTS's office doesn't know when it will be updated. Happens that those who lobbied for and use the new notarization blocks (CT banks, title companies and law firms) don't refer to the handbook; we use the statutes because they are updated as laws become effective; i.e., immediately upon Governor's signature or usually October 1. For example, some recent changes of interest to those in the real estate industry won't become effective until October 1, 2008 and October 1, 2009 - CT attorneys, CT title insurance companies and real estate paralegals all are aware of this. Easy enough to read the local trade news, eAlerts, or check the CGS's on line at the Legislative website. CT also has the validating act, which has salvaged many a document.
| Reply by Teresa/FL on 7/20/08 8:21pm
Msg #256066
Bobbi, thanks for your input
It was the 2002 CT Notary Manual that I looked at to try and find answers to my questions regarding this particular signing. What really caused concern for me was the striking out of my signer's name under her signature lines on all the notarized documents. I understood that I would be adding FL notarial certificates for my signer and always have blank certificates available, but did not expect the documents to be modified in the manner used by this notary/attorney.
Also, why would a CT attorney use a stamp with his name, title (Notary Public), and commission expiration date if it is not required? And if this stamp is used on eight documents in the package, why not the other two?
As I mentioned before, I was suprised and found it to be a sloppy job.
| Reply by BobbiCT on 7/20/08 8:50pm
Msg #256067
It sounds sloppy, but ...
Most CT attorneys just "get" a notary commission because it is "easier".
More times than not out-of-state recipients of documents reject the document because, "The document wasn't notarized. What's a Commissioner of the Superior Court? You need to re-sign this in front of a notary." Over 30 years in this industry and I am still explaining what a Commissioner is, faxing our notarial laws and/or the U.S. Constitution to out-of-state "experts".
Why not stamp & seal the other two? Guess: In CT by "good, sound practice" we are not supposed stamp, seal over any text in the document and shouldn't attach a separate notarization page without part of the document and the signers signatures on the same page as the notarization block. That said, often when the notarization block is pre-printed on a separate page we include information on the document it is attached to (doesn't mean it is always done). Guess #1: secretary missed adding stamp and seal to those pages (attorney after signing passed it to secretary to "clean up" and check for missing signatures while attorney continued to explain documents to signers or answer questions). Guess #2: There wasn't any room on the document, attorney didn't want to spend extra time and PIA trouble to attach loose certificate and, because stamp and seal not required, didn't add them. This is often the case with title company owners' affidavits where there's just enough room for a signature and margins are only 1/8" wide.
| Reply by Teresa/FL on 7/20/08 9:05pm
Msg #256069
Re: It sounds sloppy, but ...
There was enough room to add the stamp on the two documents. For the sake of consistency, *I* would have added the stamp.
This particular assignment was a refinance of a Florida property for a Florida TC that I deal with on a regular basis. They were suprised when I notified them that the signature lines on the documents had been modified by the CT notary/attorney striking through the names of the signers who had not appeared before him. I have always handled split signings by making sure the names of my signers ONLY appeared in my notarial certificates, but make no changes to the body or signature lines of the documents.
I called the TC when I received the documents and noticed this modification so they could tell me how they wanted it handled and they chose to provide fresh signature pages for my signer. Further scrutiny of the documents revealed the inconsistency in the stamp being applied.
| Reply by BobbiCT on 7/21/08 2:07pm
Msg #256099
I have a guess ...
"I have always handled split signings by making sure the names of my signers ONLY appeared in my notarial certificates, but make no changes to the body or signature lines of the documents."
Me, too, BUT ... I wonder if because of Court cases (and grievances) where witnesses were added to the document AFTER notarization when the original signer wasn't present and a second signature added after the witnesses had signed, the attorney played SUPER safe; i.e., not only were the names crossed out in the notarization block (I hope) but the attorney lined thru them on the signature portion so that there could be no possibility of adding the FL signers to the CT notarization block by typing in their names in the notarization block. I have "accidentally" found two of my notarization blocks changed by a large, well-known national company AFTER the fact and AFTER I disputed their QC person's "California requires in a Connecticut notarization block for a mortgage deed secured by Connecticut real estate being recorded in Connecticut" nasty attitude, even after I faxed the Connecticut laws (Law; not from notary handbook). The handwriting on the recorded mortgage deeds changing my notarization blocks CLEARLY does not match the rest of my handwriting and CLEARLY was not done by me and CLEARLY is different than Connecticut law requires. If there's ever a question on these two mortgages, it will be interesting. Why did someone alter a correct Conn. notarization to make it an incorrect notarization? Who altered it ... the out-of-state title insurance company? FYI: The company refuses to use me; I am glad because I won't risk my reputation and livelihood working for a company that routinely "corrects" legal documents after they have been signed and notarized.
I would have done what the attorney did differently; however, I can clearly understand the thought process.
| Reply by Teresa/FL on 7/21/08 2:51pm
Msg #256112
I did not keep copies of the documents, so I can't be 100%
sure, but I do know that not all of the notarial certificates contained the name of the individual whose signature was being notarized (NO name was filled in). I thought it very strange, considering this was a split signing, but it appears this notary/attorney thought he took care of that by crossing through the other signers' names under their signature lines in the actual documents.
I have also experienced issues with certain TCs adding witness signatures prior to recording. My SOP now is to note the names of witnesses in my journal so that I have a record should there ever be a question regarding the document. I really don't understand why a company would want to jeopardise a transaction by adding information after the fact, especially when FL does not have a legal recording requirement for witnesses on mortgages. Occasionally I am suprised by a deed in a package and I have also been told that I don't need to get a 2nd witness on the deed, the TC will just add it when it gets back to them. Of course I ignore that instruction and insist the deed signer find someone to witness their signature so it is done legally. I do not want to be pulled into a court case where someone claims the witness did not really witness their signature.
| Reply by Nomad/OR on 7/19/08 3:47pm
Msg #255975
Wow... You shoulda just smeared bacon grease
on yourself and gone out to play with the coyotes.
You should know this as commonly as you should know to use a pen instead of a pencil.
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