Posted by Linda_H/FL on 7/8/08 9:27pm
Msg #254509

What to do...

I'll make this as short as possible and add details if necessary - got a call for general notary work for an inpatient in a Behavioral Health Center - ID may be an issue as it's believed but not confirmed that his license has been suspended. I've never been to this place so I called to find out the facility's procedure for my seeing the patient - the nurse told me this center deals ONLY with mental health issues, no substance abuse or addiction. He also knew exactly who I was talking about (guess the family discussed a notary with him) and told me they bring the patient out to me because "it's safer that way"...I asked if the patient was competent to sign and the nurse said "that doesn't matter - you're only attesting to the fact that he is who he is and notarizing his signature".

Now..my issues are (1) if I know that the signer has mental health issues (which is obvious since he's in a mental health facility), isn't his mental health an issue for me? <<I think it is and the nurse is wrong - it DOES matter if he's competent to sign>>; (2) if his license has been recently suspended but was current at the time of suspension, is that acceptable?? <<I don't believe so>> ; (3) Show of hands - how many of you would walk away (and maybe tell the family to get a lawyer for an emergency order)...

So far the family hasn't called me back about this so that may be a good thing....look forward to hearing from all of you..
Thanks all!!

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/8/08 9:40pm
Msg #254510

Re: What to do...Personally, I'd avoid it.

For no good reason except that it is a headache waiting to happen.

We can debate the mental incapacity issue 'til the cows come home and the chickens come in to roost. However, a signer being in a mental facility leads me to believe that you have very good reason to feel uncomfortable about notarizing their signature. Obviously, SOMEONE thinks the guy is unstable or needing treatment...maybe even himself.

Just walk away. Don't engage in any kind of debate with them/nurse/patient.

They need to figure out that business about the emergency order on their own...not by hearing it from you. I'd just disappear from this one if I were you...without another word. But that's just overly-cautious me.

Reply by CF on 7/8/08 9:43pm
Msg #254512

Re: What to do...Personally, I'd avoid it.

I second that!! Too many problems waiting to happen. Lets say you go and the person is way out there. Or you go and there is no valid ID. You will be the one to waste your time in the end. Sometimes general notary work is a big gray area!!! Just my opinion.

Reply by Linda Juenger on 7/8/08 9:41pm
Msg #254511

IL law states:

A Notary may not notarize the signature of a person he or she knows to have been declared mentally ill by a court unless the person has been subsequently restored to mental health as a matter of record.

My vote is to walk away.

Reply by Teresa/FL on 7/8/08 9:46pm
Msg #254513

The answer is on page 36 of the Governor's Reference Manual.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/8/08 9:57pm
Msg #254514

Thanks Teresa..I read that...don't know if this man has been adjudicated but the nurse was of the opinion that it didn't matter if he was competent or not...I saved that battle for another time if and when the family called me...not sure if he's been Baker-acted or not - didn't ask any more questions.

I'm with everyone - I really don't want to do this...story: this guy's car was impounded (not sure why) and family wants to get it out - they need a notarized statement from the owner (the inpatient) before the police will release the car to them.

Since they seemed to indicate they NEEDED it done today and I haven't heard anything, I guess I'm safe.

Reply by Teresa/FL on 7/8/08 10:11pm
Msg #254517

If they called back, I wouldn't do it.

It sounds like a huge waste of time.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/8/08 9:57pm
Msg #254515

P.S. Teresa...maybe I'll copy that page and send

it to the facility for future reference...<G>

Reply by Teresa/FL on 7/8/08 10:06pm
Msg #254516

Good Idea- I'd look up their fax # and fax it to them! n/m

Reply by jba/fl on 7/8/08 10:49pm
Msg #254521

I second that motion! n/m

Reply by Cheryl Anderson on 7/9/08 2:22am
Msg #254540

Without even knowing what you look like, just the image of what your impression on your face could have possibly looked like when they told you "it is safer that way." YIKES! I have to agree with the rest of the posters...I'd have to walk away as well, especially being told that "it doesn't matter" if the patient was competent or not. I would have asked the nurse if she would put that in writing and sign it so that you can send it with the paperwork...

Reply by Lee/AR on 7/9/08 5:11am
Msg #254544

I wouldn't do it. But, this appears to be one of those cruddy situations where it seems there 'oughta be a law'. Seems reasonable that the car owner &/or family would want to get the car out of impound and prevent continuing cost. Also seems reasonable that the impound place wouldn't want to be handing over cars to non-owners. There probably is a solution, but I don't know what it is.

Reply by PAW on 7/9/08 6:22am
Msg #254546

(1) if I know that the signer has mental health issues (which is obvious since he's in a mental health facility), isn't his mental health an issue for me? <<I think it is and the nurse is wrong - it DOES matter if he's competent to sign>>;

Yes it DOES MATTER. I'm sure you have read the Gov's Manual about how to perform a notarial act, especially the part that states: "To take an acknowledgment, the document signer must personally appear before you, the notary public, and declare that he or she has signed the document voluntarily. You should ensure that the signer understands the document and has not been coerced into signing. If there is any question about the signer’s willingness to execute the document or his or her understanding of the contents of the document, you should refuse to notarize and perhaps refer the person to an attorney for legal advice."


(2) if his license has been recently suspended but was current at the time of suspension, is that acceptable?? <<I don't believe so>> ;

According to the DMV, the license is still valid. It is the persons DRIVING PRIVILEGES that are suspended, not the license itself.


(3) Show of hands - how many of you would walk away (and maybe tell the family to get a lawyer for an emergency order)...

Absolutely. (See (1) above.)

Reply by JanetK_CA on 7/9/08 4:30pm
Msg #254638

Hand up here...

I vote Yea for all of item 3!

It seems that Florida law does a better job of addressing this issue than California law. But as notaries, I think there are often two things we need to take into consideration. One, of course, is what is legal per our individual state laws. The other has to do with what is right and ethical.

Even though I don't believe CA law (if a situation like this were to occur here), specifically addresses this, I do believe there are times when we need to listen to our gut and walk away. People often look for the easy, cheap way out, which I can certainly understand, but that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.