Posted by Pierces Notary Services on 7/17/08 6:12pm
Msg #255661

What would you do - TC begged me to backdate

I had a closing last nite - borrower did not like terms and we could not get a hold of anyone to talk to so TC tells me to adjourn - get call today they have things worked out, new package - ok waiting for docs - TC calls me and tells me use last nights package and date everything for yesterday - I'm like woooooooo no can do. that is illegal - after begging and getting very loud he says he has many notaries that do that and that most attorneys, TC's, etc. and about 90 percent of the notaries will do this - I said well then find another notary because I'm not doing it. Calls me back about 1/2 hour later and I don't answer phone because I'm on my way to a closing and have no cell service. Just get message they "think" they will use last nights docs and I can date for today. By this time I'm pissed at the way this guy talked to me and he had the gall to beg me to do something illegal - would you do it if they allow you to use today's date?

Reply by Jack Tri on 7/17/08 6:43pm
Msg #255663

illegal Go to jail and notary license gone...Plus borrower could turn you in..Plus you could be sued..No way i would ever back date.

Reply by Jack Tri on 7/17/08 6:52pm
Msg #255664

One broker offer me 1,000.00 to back date his docs i told him no way not worth it.i saw him last week asked him if he ever got a notary to back date he said the notary told him he would do it he paid the guy 1,000 and the notary did the job..But he said the notary put the correct date on the docs and took the brokers money..he got burn he said...to bad to sad..lol

Reply by Active Notary Services on 7/17/08 6:58pm
Msg #255666

I would never back date a doc for anyone, period, not even open for discussion. It is funny this broker got burned, he should have known better! The notary did the right thing by putting the correct date on the docs.

Reply by sue_pa on 7/17/08 8:24pm
Msg #255680

Sorry Jack, in PA, she wouldn't go to jail, nor do I think most states would jail a notary for this infraction. Here, on the VERY off chance she'd get caught, she'd have her commission suspended and be required to take classes.

That said, why anyone would back date is totally beyond me. Every backdating request is due to an error on someone elses part. I had a ss (with a good reputation on this board) ask me to back date last month ... for a very good reason (need a smiley). Borrower goes to bed at 6:00 and I couldn't get there (due to late docs) until 8:00. I wasn't exactly sure why he thought I should do something illegal for someone who apparently didn't care about their own legal matters.

Reply by Jack Tri on 7/17/08 8:35pm
Msg #255686

In California, it is not only fraud for the notary to do this, but the person ASKING the notary has also clearly committed a crime as well. Black and white, clearly defined! To the best of my knowledge, CA is the only state where that is specifically addressed, and I wish many other states, would adopt this policy!

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 7/18/08 5:25am
Msg #255740

There's another spectrum to this, Sue

When the back-dating is done on mortgage docs, it opens up a whole other can of worms - additional ways a person can be caught, and a heavy list of consequential punishments.

Back-dating on mtg docs constitutes mortgage fraud - adds several state and Federal crimes that get attached. The MOTIVATION to pursue charges (not that we live in a litigious society, or that borrowers are looking for any kind of loophole out of current mtgs, or that there aren't armies of atty's savvy to these things, or that Lenders don't have auditors trained to spot these in a heartbeat) would be especially heavy if there's a rescission involved.

You know I think you're amazing, but I didn't want to leave this looking like back-dating was ONLY a notarial crime that isn't all that scary. It's much scarier than that when all the consequential items are considered.

Reply by sue_pa on 7/18/08 7:48am
Msg #255750

Re: There's another spectrum to this, Sue

you're right Renee. Not positive but I believe the RTC extends another 3 years. BUT, none of that matters. Why anyone would 'fix' someone elses mistake when they would share part of the liability is beyond me ... but it's done and it's done every day, in the field and in office, and it's done with the 'blessing' of the lender although I'm sure their eyes are closed.

Reply by CaliNotary on 7/17/08 8:12pm
Msg #255675

Sure, I would do the second signing, why not? Consider it a victory, you were able to get them to change their mind about backdating.

Reply by sue_pa on 7/17/08 8:26pm
Msg #255682

I am in business to make money and by turing the order down, I wouldn't make any money. I'd do it. I can count on one hand the customers I have that have NOT asked me at some point in time to backdate, do a closing without valid id, send signed docs back to the office for notarization when I refuse, etc.

Reply by KODI/CA on 7/17/08 10:30pm
Msg #255712

You can count on one hand those that have not asked you to break the law!!! You should be sent to jail for fraud, misrepresentation, and every other illegal act you have done. That is how you make money???>?>?.

Reply by KODI/CA on 7/17/08 10:30pm
Msg #255713

You can count on one hand those that have not asked you to break the law!!! You should be sent to jail for fraud, misrepresentation, and every other illegal act you have done. That is how you make money???>?>?.

Reply by KODI/CA on 7/17/08 10:30pm
Msg #255714

You can count on one hand those that have not asked you to break the law!!! You should be sent to jail for fraud, misrepresentation, and every other illegal act you have done. That is how you make money???>?>?.

Reply by KODI/CA on 7/17/08 10:31pm
Msg #255715

Re: What would you do - TC begged me to backdate n/m

Reply by KODI/CA on 7/17/08 10:32pm
Msg #255716

SORRY, GOT REALLY UPSET. IN MY OPINION, YOU AE A DISGRACE TO THE INDUSTRY.

Reply by CaliNotary on 7/17/08 10:42pm
Msg #255717

She was asked to do it

That doesn't mean she did it. I've been asked plenty of times myself, as has pretty much everyone else on the board.

Reply by Lee/AR on 7/17/08 10:43pm
Msg #255718

Hey. read it again...

sue/pa & Cali both said they'd take the order for the next day WITHOUT backdating. You have to read the whole thread to see that.

Reply by KODI/CA on 7/17/08 10:46pm
Msg #255719

Re: Hey. read it again...

Missed that, sorry to all. late and tired. This forum has been a great help to me as a newby.

Reply by Gary_CA on 7/17/08 11:48pm
Msg #255728

Well, here's some more help for a newbie...

Hang around a bit before you start calling folks "a disgrace to the industry". And if you're gonna put your foot in your mouth, once is probably enough.

SuePA has a good reputation here, hard earned. You're a newbie.

Not to be a little clique that you can't get in or anything of the sort but part of what makes this board go is the civility.

At any rate welcome... you've come into the industry at a tough time, make some friends that'll help you thrive.

Reply by Champion Mobile Notary on 7/17/08 9:34pm
Msg #255702

Yes, I too have been asked to back date on documents that require notarization. I decline.

In California, not using the proper date for notarizations has the following penalties for the notaries:
"That the signer personally appeared before the notary public on the date indicated in the
county indicated."
"... misdemeanor crime of a notary public who makes and delivers as true any certificate or writing that contains statements known to be false. (Government Code section 6203)"

Penalties for people asking the notaries to mis-state information:
"...the misdemeanor crime of soliciting, coercing, or influencing a notary public to perform an improper notarial act; "

Recently, I was asked by an LO to sign the loan docs although the Mrs. didn't have proper ID for her name printed on all the loan docs. (The problem was she never officially changed her last name when she married). I responded, "CA passed new notary laws at the start of the year and the fine is $10K for not properly identifying a person. I can only notarize the docs with what her ID states." The lender redrew the docs with her correct name.

Here is the CA notary law about identifying signers:

"The identity of the person making the acknowledgment must be established by specified documents, or by a credible witness who is personally known to the notary public and who has proven their identity with specifi ed documents. Violation of this section subjects a notary public to a civil penalty of up to $10,000 in an administrative action brought by the Secretary of State or a public prosecutor in superior court. (Civil Code section 1185)
• The certificate of acknowledgment now is executed under penalty of perjury. (Civil Code
section 1189)"

Reply by A-1 Signing Agents, LLC on 7/17/08 11:10pm
Msg #255726

I may be wrong but from what I have experienced, if it's just the a day later, just the current date. I was told from a TC that really it's only the NORTC that is iron clad with the date? I have changed the date with the borrowers initials on it and per the TC it was ok. Now weather is was right, i'm not sure. I would never back date though. I would think if the TC asked you to be dishonest this time, what else would you be honest about. Am I wrong about the NORTC? I know the loan funded since they paid me. I"m sure i've done a few things wrong here or there but I hope it wasn't illegal. Feedback?

Reply by jba/fl on 7/17/08 11:21pm
Msg #255727

Whew, A-1, hard to read your post, but I think I understand what you are trying to say/ask:

If my BO did not sign tonight for one reason or another, and my docs were "date sensitive" then the docs would have to be redrawn. This is a lender policy, not TC policy. The TC does what the Lender wants. I do what the Lender wants.

If the docs are not 'date sensitive', then in the morning when my BO gets all squared away with his/her LO, and decides to sign, I may present the same docs for signing. I must change any pre-filled in dates on RTC for certain, changes must be initialed by all BO's. Whether (not weather, cuz we don't care if it is raining or not) or not the remaining dates get changed is up to the Lender, and they will advise at the time they reassign the signing to you. If the BO is to date anything, or if I am to date anything, we will use the date that we actually are at the table; not yesterday, not tomorrow, but today or 'on this date'.

Hope this helps.

Reply by A-1 Signing Agents, LLC on 7/17/08 11:55pm
Msg #255729

LOL, it sounded good in my mind when I was trying to ask. I am more asleep than awake and probably shouldn't post anything at this point. You did however get the point of what it was I was tryng to ask. TY for confirming for me.

Reply by jba/fl on 7/18/08 12:14am
Msg #255735

You're welcome. Where are you located?

Reply by A-1 Signing Agents, LLC on 7/18/08 4:50am
Msg #255739

In Miami Jba

Reply by JanetK_CA on 7/18/08 2:51am
Msg #255738

<<The certificate of acknowledgment now is executed under penalty of perjury. (Civil Code
section 1189)">>

Right. And purjury is a felony - not a misdemeanor. And, of course, included in the certificate of acknowlegment is the date that the individual(s) personally appeared before us - not when they would have IF _________ (fill in the blank).

Frankly, if other docs are predated incorrectly next to the signature line, I don't really care unless they are being notarized. I leave that up to the borrowers to decide if they want to correct it, unless I have some instruction to the contrary.

Reply by Pierces Notary Services on 7/18/08 7:56am
Msg #255754

Well I didn't end up doing it of course because I won't do something illegal as backdating. What got me is that the guy said oh about 90% of the notaries I ask do it and I knew that he was blowing smoke. I ended up not being able to get back to the guy as I ended up running my hubby to the emergency room last night. He's been real sick the past couple of days and can't keep anything in him - poor guy has been thru you know what the past 3 months. I will try to call them this morning to see if they found anyone else.