Posted by granmapickle on 7/22/08 6:59am
Msg #256239

multiple copies

Yesterday I was asked to do a closing that required two full packages to be signed (2 notes, mortgages, etc.) along with a package copy for the borrowers. Several years ago I received a similar request, which offered extra compensation for the extra copies, but fortunately our time frame did not work out. I thought these crazies were gone but up popped one yesterday. How do you feel about having the borrower execute, mostly, two notes???? I told the signing copany that I was uncomfortable asking someone to do this and turned down the job (which is something I tend not to do anymore if I can help it). Should I have done it...am I getting paranoid now????

Reply by WDMD on 7/22/08 7:06am
Msg #256240

"How do you feel about having the borrower execute, mostly, two notes???? I told the signing copany that I was uncomfortable asking someone to do this......"

I woul not sign two notes but IMO if someone is willing to sign two notes it is not up to me to tell them otherwise.

Reply by GA/Atty on 7/22/08 9:44am
Msg #256276

I can't let a borrower sign 2 notes; when I am asked to, I

mark one of them with my big red *CERTIFIED COPY* stamp before I return it to the title company.

Reply by WDMD on 7/22/08 10:24am
Msg #256280

Re: I can't let a borrower sign 2 notes; when I am asked to, I

GA actually has a law stating that a borrower cannot sign two notes?

Reply by GA/Atty on 7/22/08 12:22pm
Msg #256293

They can sign 2 notes if they are for 2 separate debts, but

not for the same one. Without some indication that one was a copy, each note would be enforceable independently.

Reply by LynnNC on 7/22/08 12:55pm
Msg #256299

Re: They can sign 2 notes if they are for 2 separate debts, but

They would both be enforceable if they have the same account #? I am not an attorney, but, logic tells me that would not be true.

Reply by GA/Atty on 7/22/08 1:39pm
Msg #256305

Notes are not required to have an account number

But even if they had one, what if - 7 or 8 years down the line - one note was sold to Assignee A and the second to Assignee B? Even if it was done unintentionally (which I think would most often be the case if any problem did arise over it), it could still be costly and cumbersome for a borrower to straighten things out. The account numbers might not mean anything to assignees.

I am not suggesting that a court that was fully informed of all the facts would force a borrower to pay a debt twice, no matter how many notes a borrower signed. What I think is more likely is that both debts could be entered into a computer somewhere and once that happens it would fall on the borrower to have to straighten it out.

Reply by MelissaCT on 7/23/08 4:17pm
Msg #256482

Re: I can't let a borrower sign 2 notes; when I am asked to, I

CT statutes have a clause to the effect that a borrower can't be *REQUIRED* to sign more than once copy as a condition of a loan, however there is nothing prohibiting someone from *ASKING* for them to sign multiples.
The only time I have multiples in the package is from NY title companies (I think NY needs more than one copy). I request that duplicates be signed, if it's requested by the TC -- however, if the borrower should refuse to sign a copy, I certainly wouldn't force them to sign it. Haven't had one refuse to sign yet, but I don't require anyone to sign anything. It must be of their own free will.

Reply by WDMD on 7/23/08 4:24pm
Msg #256483

Re: I can't let a borrower sign 2 notes; when I am asked to, I

"however, if the borrower should refuse to sign a copy, I certainly wouldn't force them to sign it. Haven't had one refuse to sign yet, but I don't require anyone to sign anything. It must be of their own free will."

I don't require a borrower to do anything other than provide proof of identification. If they don't want to sign something and then do not get their loan so be it. That kinda goes without saying.

Reply by sue_pa on 7/22/08 7:14am
Msg #256241

It's none of your business. Their interest rate, their loan program, their closing costs, etc., is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. If they want to sign 2 Notes, that's up to them.

I personally would never sign the majority of title docs I see but my borrowers never have problems signing them. I personally would never sign 2 Notes, 2 Mortgages, 2 nothing. If they need a second copy someone can certify it. But as for the borrowers, it is NONE OF OUR BUSINESS if they are willing to do or not question what their lender or it's agents instruct them to do.

Reply by Yowheelz on 7/22/08 8:34am
Msg #256254

how about a full copy to each borrower

title company said the loan company required that each borrower have a full set of documents but they didn't want to pay more for second full set. Borrowers were husband and wife living togeather and couldn't figure out why they needed so much paper work to keep. Title Co. finally paid extra, guess they couldn't find another Notary out here in the cornfields of the Eastern Shore.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 7/22/08 9:43am
Msg #256273

I agree with Sue
It is our job to get the loan docs signed and the borrowers signatures notarized.
If the borrowers are happy signing two notes etc then it is none of our business.

Reply by MW/VA on 7/22/08 9:02am
Msg #256261

Yes, there are a few tc's out there that want 2 complete sets of docs signed--talk about insecurity. For a while, there was a trend to do "split packages" for CW. I do have several companies that have 2 Notes, 2 DOT's & 2 TIL's signed. The 2nd copy of the Note is always clearly marked "Certified Copy". That is the only way I'd do it. I've been told that to do otherwise is actually having them sign 2 loans. This general attitude that "it's not any of our business & do what you're told" doesn't fly with me. How does having them sign 2 Notes differ from back-dating? The borrowers aren't generally aware of what potentially isn't legal--and IMO it is our job to know. After all, we're the one's who are having them sign it. I don't think this is used for any illegal purposes--probably used to bundle the loan for resale.
Regardless, 2nd Note needs to be marked "Certified Copy".

Reply by WDMD on 7/22/08 9:12am
Msg #256264

"This general attitude that "it's not any of our business & do what you're told" doesn't fly with me. How does having them sign 2 Notes differ from back-dating? "

I'm not responsible for people who sign documents that maybe they should not be signing. Thats what lawyers are for, giving legal advice. Are you saying you give borrowers advice on signing legal documents? As far as backdating goes, my only concern is the date reflected in my notarial block. Borrowers can date any date they want to or have been told to, but I'm only going to use the current date myself.


"The borrowers aren't generally aware of what potentially isn't legal--and IMO it is our job to know."


I'm curious.....how is signing two of anything illegal? Are reverse mortgages illegal? Again, are you saying that you are telling borrowers signing two notes is illegal?

Reply by MW/VA on 7/22/08 9:27am
Msg #256268

I can see how what I said could be construed as giving legal advice--I don't. My position has always been that while I can't give legal or financial advice, I also won't be party to an illegal action. It is about what I will or will not do at the closing table so that I'm not opening myself up to be sued.

Reply by WDMD on 7/22/08 9:34am
Msg #256272

" I also won't be party to an illegal action. "

Explain to me how signing 2 notes is illegal. Might not be smart, but I don't see how it is illegal.

Reply by MW/VA on 7/22/08 9:44am
Msg #256275

You must be an attorney--you keep cross-examining my remarks.

Reply by WDMD on 7/22/08 10:25am
Msg #256281

And you still have not told me how it is illegal to sign two notes. Educate me.

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/22/08 10:43am
Msg #256284

Re: multiple copies - I have recently said the same.

It might be stupid...or in bad practice...but I swear, I don't know anything about it being illegal.

Reply by MW/VA on 7/22/08 2:26pm
Msg #256311

Because I'm choosing not the participate in this debate and have moved on. If you read my post, you will realize that I never said it was illegal.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 7/22/08 2:55pm
Msg #256317

Msg #256261

<<<<How does having them sign 2 Notes differ from back-dating? The borrowers aren't generally aware of what potentially isn't legal--and IMO it is our job to know.>>>>


Although you didn't write "it is illegal", you certainly did elude to that being a fact.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 7/23/08 12:57am
Msg #256383

Oh, yeah...Msg #254672 Amusing to say the least.

Last week you posted:
<<<<I work for several companies that do two Notes, two DOT's & all riders. Just make sure the "copy" of the Note is clearly marked copy. They can't legally sign two notes.>>>>

Seems to me you that definatively state that signing 2 notes is illegal, no matter what you insinuted earlier today.
Whatever you post here is a recorded statement.
Backpeddle out of this, MW/VA.
Please, try, and amuse us.

Reply by Richard Goodwin on 7/22/08 9:28am
Msg #256269

If a borrower signs 2 notes and neither is marked "Certified Copy", then isn't he obligating himself to twice the debt?

Reply by MW/VA on 7/22/08 9:30am
Msg #256270

Yes, absolutely.

Reply by sue_pa on 7/22/08 9:43am
Msg #256274

How?

1. The loan number is printed on the document. We can assume both copies will show the same loan number.

2. The lender would ultimately have to prove that they paid out $xxxx and disbursed the loan twice, and that the borrower received the proceeds twice.

All that said, certainly should the VERY remote situation occur, the borrower will have to expend, probably quite a bit, of effort to clear everything up.

"Illegal to sign two", I'd sure like to see what statute or case law this theory is based on - probably based only on the 'signing agent laws' I see thrown about on these boards that have no bearing in the 'real' world of lending.

Reply by ZeeCA on 7/22/08 9:47am
Msg #256277

Re: How? -- Amen Sue PA ALWAYS the voice of reason n/m

Reply by Richard Goodwin on 7/22/08 1:35pm
Msg #256304

Re: How?

Thank you, Sue. I stand corrected.

Reply by LynnNC on 7/22/08 10:07am
Msg #256278

They are not signing two loans, but two copies of the same note with the same loan number. I ahve never had a borrower question signing multiple copies and it is not my position to question what the lender wants...it is my job to identify the borrowers and have the documents properly signed and notarized.

Reply by ZeeCA on 7/22/08 9:15am
Msg #256266

Back when LandAm met my fee they required multiples and

told me that was their standard and the BO were aware of it and yes the BOs always expected it. I would not be comfortable signing anything duplicated like that....

then LandAm went to only paying their cheapo, bottom feeding amounts and still wanted faxbacks and multiple copies. I am no longer on their call list and they do not meet my fees any longer...

Reply by Jack Tri on 7/22/08 10:17am
Msg #256279

2 notes did it have 2 deeds of trust? It may be a rev mortgage.That is a big package.

Reply by granmapickle on 7/22/08 10:33am
Msg #256282

It was not a reverse mortgage it was a regular refi. And it was not only two notes but two of everything...two complete packages. I have had requests before where two mortgages were requested to be signed but never for two complete packages. Had I taken the assigning and waited to see if 'certified copy' was on the second one that would have been OK, but I still don't see the need for two complete packages to be signed. Also had I taken the assigning and spoken with the BO then I would have had the opportunity to find out if they were comfortable with the two. It was I who was uncomfortable with the entire situation. In my 15 years I have been asked to do many strange things and on more than one occasion have chosen to do what I thought was right...not the person asking me to do the 'deed.

Reply by sue_pa on 7/22/08 11:20am
Msg #256286

unbelievable

...and spoken with the BO then I would have had the opportunity to find out if they were comfortable with the two....

Do you have any repeat clients? If I discussed the 'mechanics' of the entire lending industry with borrowers, my clients certainly would never call me again.

Do you find out if they're comfortable with $10,000 in closing costs when we see through other lenders they could get away with $4,000? Do you find out if they're comfortable with adjustable rates in these turbulant times? Do you tell them if they have the equity just refi their first and then go to a local lender (who are all clamoring for business) so they can get a second to pay that credit card debt and not have to pay the PMI?


...I still don't see the need for two complete packages to be signed. ...

I personally don't "see the need" for quite a bit of paperwork that crosses my desk ; however, it's not my money being lent nor my title insurance backing up the loan. The lenders and title insurers can do a lot to secure & protect their positions. It's NEVER, EVER a 'signing agent's' position to determine anything about the loan or the process unless you are being asked to do something illegal or commit outright fraud - and those instances are few and far between.

We've seen countless posts from notaries that are told not to contact their borrowers ahead of time and people wonder why. The notary who started this thread is one of the reasons.

Reply by granmapickle on 7/22/08 12:30pm
Msg #256297

Re: unbelievable

JFYI...I have, over the years, had many repeat customers. I also have many signing services that call me first because of my knowledge, ethics and courtesies. If you think that notaries like me are the reasons that we should not contact our borrowers/customers first then I truly feel sorry for you. I have read these posts for many years, have been a member of NotaryRotary for many years and gotten quite a bit of business from this membership. I am still one of the rare ones who is able to earn a living doing this because of my relationships, etc. So think what you will ..... answers such as the ones you have given to this 'thread' are the reason that most of us just read and don't subject ourselves to having responses like this hurled at us.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 7/22/08 1:46pm
Msg #256306

Re: unbelievable

Some people don't get it and maybe never will. The way I see it, is that some of us comprehend our responsiblities in this transaction, while other's aren't quite so clear.
This is why I've had such a large client database...I do my job, and go home.
If I see something questionable in the package or missing from the package, I will bring it to the TC's attention, but then it's out of my hands.
If it is not an illegal/immoral request I will accommodate it.
It's not YOUR decision to make granma, you are only a vendor. Low man on the totem pole. Let the legal eagles hash this out.
And signing to identical notes IS NOT ILLEGAL in Florda.
my .02.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 7/22/08 1:50pm
Msg #256308

And signing to identical notes

Uh, that would be a "TWO".

Reply by MW/VA on 7/22/08 2:37pm
Msg #256313

Re: unbelievable

Amen. If they bother to read the original post (not the spin that was put on it) they would realize that you were just asking if it is unusual. A notary does have the legal (uh, oh, I used that word again) right to decline any transaction.