Posted by Richard L Silver on 3/23/08 8:02pm
Msg #240386
California Notary Law changes
Many of you posted comments comments around 3/20/08 about a proposed change in the California notary law that would increase fees and Increase the fees that could be charged by a notary.
This bill was orginally proposed and sponsored by the Los Angeles County District Attorney. !/3 of all the notaries in California live/work in Los Angeles County.
The Californa Professional Notary Association, supports the bill and has asked that it be amends to require that 1 of the six class hours be devoted to notary ethics.
Below I have listed the COMMENTS and my RESPONSES. I hope this will answer some of the questions, but if still have some, you can post or give me a call.
Richard Silver, Executive Director
California Professional Notary Association
415-370-7479
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COMMENT: That would prohibit many people from getting notary services performed. $25 an act is too much.
RESPONSE: Then don’t charge $25 per signature. Charge less and I’ll bet you get more business. The market, after a small time, will set the price. Things like time of day, type of docs, area that service is being provided etc. will affect what is charged.
COMMENTS: Also note, that in CA, the fee is per **signature**. Thus a deed with two signatures would amount to a $50 fee! Yikes!! Just think how many signatures get notarized in a loan doc package. Average about 7 docs with 2 sigs each would be 14 x $25 or $350. And that's just the notary fees.
RESPONSE: Like anything, the market will control the price. The idea behind this increase came from going back to the last time the notary fee was increased and adding the cost of living each. The amount came to $26.05 as of 6/30/07.
The number of notaries in California's smaller counties has actually gone done, even though most small counties have seen a population gain. One county has only notaries that work for the government or private businesses. This has been due to the fact that despite the cost of living increasing notaries could not raise their price.
COMMENT: If we think we have a flood of notaries into the field now, we ain't seen nothin' yet, if this thing passes. [Are you sure the NNA isn't behind this?] Those teaching notary classes would love it.
RESPONSE: We had a flood because of the number of loans and re-fi’s. Now that that is over many of these “Get Rich Quick” notaries have left. This bill is for the professional notary who acts professionally.
This bill is sponsored by the Los Angeles County District Attorney. One Third of all notaries in California are in Los Angeles. The NNA has not taken a position yet, but we are hoping they will support.
I have no doubt that “Those teaching notary classes would love it” but what’s the point? A better educated notary is more professional and provides better service. We have asked that one on the six hours include one hour of notary ethics.
COMMENT: Doubling the length of the boring class we all have to go through will not make a crooked notary straight. Raising the fees will not make you rich if there's little work volume. Besides the fact that we can charge a separate travel fee for mobile notaries. The only notary that needs a fee increase is the one at the UPS store. This sponsor needs some real work to do.
RESPONSE: Increasing class time etc., will actually reduce the number of people applying to be a notary, leaving only those that tend to be more sincere. If a few hours every four years does that, so be it. It is not uncommon for a profession that requires a license or commission to include many more hours of Continuing Education EVERY YEAR. As the notary professions grows and expands, and more people think of joining it is important that notary education, training and supervision gown accordingly.
The cost of fees will not directly affect the amount of documents that need to be notarized. A document either needs to be notarized or it doesn’t. In generally, is unethical for a notary to notarize a document that doesn’t need to be notarized.
As for the travel fee, technically you are not allowed to charge more that the milage fee. If you are charging more you may be breaking the law.
As I posted above, the sponsor of the bill is the Los Angeles County District Attorney.
COMMENT: How would increased fees promote professionalism? I would think it would invite xyz (and others) to a shark frenzy! I can just see it now-Come one, come all, you can make 200,000$ a year! Easy work, Great pay! Come, make us rich... As for the six vs. 3 hour class, I really don't care, it MIGHT help and if you take the NR online class, it's not that boring (I thought it was great) and it's a lot cheaper than most others.
The more difficult it is to become a notary, or real estate broker or policeman etc. the greater likelihood you will tend to weed out the bad and have a better group of persons within the selected.
| Reply by Jon on 3/23/08 9:18pm
Msg #240390
"As for the travel fee, technically you are not allowed to charge more that the mileage fee. If you are charging more you may be breaking the law. "
Exactly where in Ca law does it say that you can only charge a mileage fee, and what exactly is the mileage fee you refer to? The last time I looked at the law it allows me to charge anything travel fee I want, as long as the fee is disclosed upfront and agreed to by the parties involved. Please include code & section so I can verify what you say.
Thanks
| Reply by Richard L Silver on 3/23/08 11:20pm
Msg #240400
Jon,
Thanks for you question.
It's not in California Law, it part of the federal tax law (IRS). If you charge more than the actual cost of the travel, then the extra amount is a fee for service and is considered income. Under California law the most you can charge for your service is $10 per signature.
let's say you take a signing from a title company and they are willing to pay you $100. There are 2 signer who each have to sign twice as notarized signature. $40. This is taxable, but you can choose if you want to pay SS tax.
The travel charge is $20. This is no taxable, assuming you are following the IRS formula, and there is no SS tax.
The remaing $40 is a fee for service paid to you by the title company for all the other things you do as part of the total signing. You need to pay tax and SS tax on this amount.
Richard L Silver
415-370-7479
| Reply by JanetK_CA on 3/24/08 2:42am
Msg #240406
<<Under California law the most you can charge for your service is $10 per signature.>>
I think you are mixing apples and oranges. The law states that we can charge $10 per notarized signature on an acknowledgement and $10 per person for administering an oath or affirmation, including completion of the appropriate certificate. However, it says nothing about the service of traveling to the person's location for their convenience, as opposed to them coming to your place of business to have the notarization(s) completed.
<<The travel charge is $20. This is no taxable, assuming you are following the IRS formula, and there is no SS tax.>>
I don't know where you came up with this. I agree that the travel fee would be "fee for service" and would be taxable income, but I don't agree with your interpretation that we could only charge $20 for travel. And at a signing, the vast majority of the documents we deal with are not being notarized, so would not fall under any state restrictions regarding fees we can charge. Finally, for the record, most title companies would be willing to pay more than $100 per signing!
Is this why you want to raise notary fees??? [I'm starting to get a feeling of deja vu...]
| Reply by Richard L Silver on 3/24/08 4:25am
Msg #240407
I posted: <<Under California law the most you can charge for your service is $10 per signature.>>
And then Janet responded: I think you are mixing apples and oranges. The law states that we can charge $10 per notarized signature on an acknowledgement and $10 per person for administering an oath or affirmation, including completion of the appropriate certificate. However, it says nothing about the service of traveling to the person's location for their convenience, as opposed to them coming to your place of business to have the notarization(s) completed.
Any charge over the $10 per signature that can't be explained, i.e. travel etc. is forbidden because it in effect is a fee for service. The most you can serve for you service is $10 per signature.
Check with you accountant.
Ric<<The travel charge is $20. This is no taxable, assuming you are following the IRS formula, and there is no SS tax.>>
Janet>I don't know where you came up with this. I agree that the travel fee would be "fee for service" and would be taxable income, but I don't agree with your interpretation that we could only charge $20 for travel.
The twenty dollar figure was just an example.
Janet>And at a signing, the vast majority of the documents we deal with are not being notarized, so would not fall under any state restrictions regarding fees we can charge. Finally, for the record, most title companies would be willing to pay more than $100 per signing!
Janet, I was giving an example. It doesn't matter if the title company pays $50, $100 or $150.
Is this why you want to raise notary fees??? [I'm starting to get a feeling of deja vu...]
This is a joke, right?
Ric Silver
45-370-7479
| Reply by Jon on 3/24/08 12:53pm
Msg #240430
I'm in a hurry, so this will be brief, but let me address a couple of very inaccurate ideas that are being put forth.
"The travel charge is $20. This is no taxable, assuming you are following the IRS formula, and there is no SS tax."
The IRS limits for mileage are in no way a limit to what you can charge for travel, but rather a limit to what you can write off. All travel fees will be included in your gross receipts, and you then list expenses(including mileage) as an offset to get to your net income. You pay tax on your net income and SE tax on the amount subject to SE tax. You can use actual costs for travel instead of mileage, but since it is so cumbersome most will use the standard mileage rate. If I choose to charge $100,000 for a travel fee and the client agrees to it, it is perfectly legal although I won't be able to write of anywhere near that amount. I would just have to pay tax on the amount over what I write off. Saying something is or is not taxable and something is a violation of the law are two totally different things. I just like to be careful when saying something may be a violation of the law when it clearly is not.
| Reply by John Tennant on 3/23/08 9:39pm
Msg #240391
6 hours is nothing. I am also a California Registered Tax Preparer. To acieve this I initially had to go to a 60 hour class and then pass (at 70%) a 5 hour test. In addition, it is required that each year I must attend another 20 hours and pass another test to remain registered. Whomever is complaining about 6 hours is wrong. From where I stand, the longer the required training, and the frequency of the additional training, should reduce the questionable Notaries.
| Reply by JanetK_CA on 3/23/08 10:17pm
Msg #240394
I think the tax code is considerably longer than the CA notary law -- and that may be the understatement of the year!  I have lots more to say about Richard Silver's post, but there is so much that I don't even know where to begin. After some of the posts he's made here in the past, it really scares me to think that he might be in a position to represent CA notaries!
| Reply by Richard L Silver on 3/23/08 11:29pm
Msg #240401
What is it you are afraid of Janet?
It always amazes me about people who are willing to libel or slander someone in a group like this, but are unwilling to idenitify themselfs. Why is JanetK_CA afraid to link to her account? Is it becasue she knows that if she did that and someone want to respond legally they could?
In any case this is not just me, but the group I represent, CALIFORNIA PROFESSIONAL NOTARY ASSOCIATION. We are over 100 notaries who have joined together to work for more professional standards.
Richard Silver, Executive Director
California Professional Notary Association
415-370-7479
| Reply by JanetK_CA on 3/24/08 2:20am
Msg #240405
If someone wanted to respond legally, my lack of a link wouldn't stop them. Are you saying that you have never posted on this board before and that you're a different Richard Silver than the one who created a bit of a stir quite a while back then disappeared? If that's the case, then you have my apologies. But forgive me for being skeptical... Obviously, though, you haven't been on this board for quite some time. I had my profile linked until very recently (like within the last few weeks) for a long time. (More than a year? I don't remember.) But I felt it had been long enough and I miss seeing how many actual clients are viewing my profile.
As for your original post, I don't disagree with your goal of developing more professional standards for notaries. In fact, I applaud the intention. I'm just not convinced that your methods will accomplish what you are setting out to do, based on recent history.
We've come through a period of time where certain organizations (note plural...) have been attracting the general public to become notaries to get into the loan signing business to make supposed big money. I don't think this did much to raise the professionalism of our business. Instead, we have seen over the years a steady stream of people, apparently interested in what seems to them to be easy money, coming here asking a multitude of very basic questions because they haven't make the effort to learn what they need to know on their own. This, I feel, has had a negative affect on notary professionalism.
I would love to be able to charge more for basic notary work, however, at this point, I fear that higher fees would again attract more people to become notaries for the wrong reason, having the opposite impact of what you are trying to accomplish. This is just my opinion and I'd love to be wrong on this.
In the meantime, care to share with us any other qualifications you posess, in addition to your position representing "over 100 notaries" out of the many thousands in Calfornia, that qualify you to lead this effort? I always try to keep an open mind and if I am convinced to change my mind, I will state it publicly on this board.
| Reply by Richard L Silver on 3/24/08 4:37am
Msg #240408
Janet posted: In the meantime, care to share with us any other qualifications you posess, in addition to your position representing "over 100 notaries" out of the many thousands in Calfornia, that qualify you to lead this effort? I always try to keep an open mind and if I am convinced to change my mind, I will state it publicly on this board.
I have been a notary for over 38 years. Since I retired, about 10 years ago, I have been working at it full time until the begining of 2008. I'm just getting to old. I have well over 300 compeleted journals ( I havn't counted in years) and during my retirement years averaged about $80-90,000 a year.
Only about 1/2 my work is with the loans and refis.
A group of notaries approched me and asked me to head up this group since I have effectively retired and I agreed. I don't know what you mean by what qualifies me to head this effort, except to be asked, although any indiviual can start any kind of effort such as this.
Why do you think there are qualifications? Personally your logic seems to be a bit askewed so I doubt if you would fit in, assuming you qualified in the first place.
Richard Silver
415-370-7479
BTW, you never explained why you are afraid to idenitify yourself. You seem to be able to sling the slander, what are you afraid of.
| Reply by MichiganAl on 3/24/08 9:36am
Msg #240413
R U always so quick to sling the words slander & libel?
Dang, I guess no one can ask for clarification or disagree with anything you have to say. Do you always go about trying to gathering support in this manner?
| Reply by Richard L Silver on 3/24/08 10:23am
Msg #240420
Re: R U always so quick to sling the words slander & libel?
Janet "slung" at me and I slug back. I've learned that if you don't respond it only continues and gets worse.
Funny you don't find fault with Janet's comments.
Richard Silver
415-370-7479
| Reply by BrendaTx on 3/24/08 11:37am
Msg #240426
Link to: California Professional Notary Association (?)
Does anyone have a link to the "CPNA"?
| Reply by BBuchler/CA on 3/24/08 1:13pm
Msg #240431
"The more difficult it is to become a notary, or real estate broker or policeman etc. the greater likelihood you will tend to weed out the bad and have a better group of persons within the selected."
Oh, please. It now takes a 6 hours class and there are still idiots coming out. Not to mention idiot school training. Your post is more about the increase in fees than the increase in hours of class. You could make it a 2 day class and people would still sign up, why? Because they think they'll get rich at $25 a signature.
For many people they make $12 an hour. All they have to do is the math. They work 4 hours do 4 signatures @ $25 and they've make more than they ever have. And that's if they only do 4 signatures - what if they do 10 a day! Woohoo, they're rich. So what if they haven't got a clue. Doesn't matter as they're making the big bucks.
Frankly I'd take an intense 4 hour class that go over and over, and over, what we can and cannot do and how we do it, than 6 any day. And if you want to talk ethics - try at the top. My ethics are just fine - those who want to hire me and have me do unethical stuff - well, they need the class not me. How about sponsering a hot line where us ethical notaries can call and turn in anyone who wants us to break the law?
Barbara
And Richard, where is YOUR link?
| Reply by Merry_CA on 3/24/08 2:25pm
Msg #240440
http://www.usanotaries.com/ca/RicSilver_factsheet.html
not much info
| Reply by Richard L Silver on 3/24/08 3:00pm
Msg #240447
Ric posted: The more difficult it is to become a notary, or real estate broker or policeman etc. the greater likelihood you will tend to weed out the bad and have a better group of persons within the selected.
Barbara responded: Oh, please. It now takes a 6 hours class and there are still idiots coming out. Not to mention idiot school training.
If you think (and others) that's a problem then do something to correct it. Don't just complain. If it were up to me there would be 6 hours a YEAR!!! The class program is new and still going through a shake down process, but as the notary profession becomes more complacated some type of continuing education will become even more necessary.
Barbara posted: Your post is more about the increase in fees than the increase in hours of class. You could make it a 2 day class and people would still sign up, why? Because they think they'll get rich at $25 a signature.
Ric's response> My posts, in response may seem to be more about the fees because the questions asked of me tend to be about the fees. But using your logic there would never be any fee increase. As the cost of living increase, and infation grows does there ever get to a point that an increase is in order?
Barbara posted>For many people they make $12 an hour. All they have to do is the math. They work 4 hours do 4 signatures @ $25 and they've make more than they ever have. And that's if they only do 4 signatures - what if they do 10 a day! Woohoo, they're rich. So what if they haven't got a clue. Doesn't matter as they're making the big bucks.
Ric Responds> If they are as stupid as you say they will not last long. Beside, no one is forcing you to raise your fee to $25. If you think it's too high leave it at $10.
Barbara> Frankly I'd take an intense 4 hour class that go over and over, and over, what we can and cannot do and how we do it, than 6 any day.
Ric> So your hold problem is with the number of hours? you're ok with 4 (an increase from the current 3) but find 6 too hard? The are 35,064 hours in a four year commission and you're unwilling to take 6 hours out to take a refreser course? Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill.
Barbara> And if you want to talk ethics - try at the top. My ethics are just fine...
Ric> I've learned that the ones that screams the loudest about the ethics tend to be the ones that have the biggest problems. Not all of us are as selfrightous as you are. The more the education the better we are. I was a cop and the a judge. I taken thousands of the same continuing education coarse over and over for over 30 years becasue law required it. The was hardly a time that I didn't learn something new or was remind of something that I needed to do better. Being a notary is hardly as difficult as being a cop or judge, but it seem each years more duties are added. The job of a notary today is greatly different from when I was first a notart in 1969
Barbara> - those who want to hire me and have me do unethical stuff - well, they need the class not me.
Ric> That might be fine for you, but what about the other 350,000 notaries? Most people are honest, even notaries, but they don't always know what is right and wrong as it pertains to their specific profession. They need to go though a learning process.
Barbara> How about sponsering a hot line where us ethical notaries can call and turn in anyone who wants us to break the law?
Ric replys> Already there! It called the local District Attorney!! In fact this law is being sponsored by the Los Angeles County District Attorney in the hopes of addressing some of the problems he has to deal with.
Barbara> And Richard, where is YOUR link?
It there just push my name. But I think your referring to my comments about Janet. Who is she? At leasr you know my name, address, phone number and can access my page here on Notary Rotary. Janet is just some type of "Baby Jane"
Richard Silver
415-370-7479
| Reply by BrendaTx on 3/24/08 3:07pm
Msg #240448
**Janet is just some type of "Baby Jane"*
I liked that movie.
However, I cannot figure out what you are
talking about as far as Janet being Baby Jane.
| Reply by KBLedgard_CA on 3/24/08 6:57pm
Msg #240478
Dick (that's your name, right?), call 800-ABC-DEFG because your grammar is pathetic. In case you have problems with the letters, the number is 800-222-3334.
| Reply by MichiganAl on 3/24/08 7:17pm
Msg #240479
"I was a cop and the(n) a judge"
Ahhhhhhh, that explains a lot about your interpersonal skills.
| Reply by Richard L Silver on 3/24/08 9:19pm
Msg #240508
Re: "I was a cop and the(n) a judge"
Interesting that Al's comments never address the orginal issue but instead are personal snips.
It seems MichiganAl doesn't have much to do if he has so mch time to stick his nose into California notary issues.
Perhap if you took that chip off your shoulder and focused on you business in Detroit you'd be spending your time more effectivly.
| Reply by CaliNotary on 3/24/08 8:05pm
Msg #240489
Good Lord, what a self important blowhard
Seeing your posts in this thread reminds me of something an old coworker used to always say. If you can't dazzle em with logic, baffle em with bullsh!t.
Seriously, who in their right mind posts on a message board in that ridiculous format?
| Reply by Richard L Silver on 3/24/08 9:10pm
Msg #240502
Re: Good Lord, what a self important blowhard
I was asked to give my background so I did! I guess if I hadn't responded you complain about my not responding.
As for the format I use, if you don't like it that skip my posts. You seem to be the one with a chip on your shoulder.
Richard Silver
415-370-7479
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