Posted by Williams - Steve on 3/17/08 7:39pm
Msg #239603

Have you run into this?

Servicelink told me to have the borrower sign different from the way there name was printed
on the mortgage. They told me that this was spelled out in the instructions but I couldn't find it. They told me this happens often. Not to me.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 3/17/08 8:03pm
Msg #239605

Using your name as an example

was it Stephen Williams or Steph Williams?

Reply by Teresa/FL on 3/17/08 8:05pm
Msg #239606

Are you referring to the signature/name affidavit?

I have seen loan packages that included requirements in the instructions to sign different name variations on the signature/name affidavit, even though the name variations were not pre-printed on the affidavit. I always skim the instructions for notes like this.

Reply by CF on 3/17/08 8:09pm
Msg #239608

Re: Are you referring to the signature/name affidavit?

Was it the countrywide department?

Reply by Williams - Steve on 3/17/08 9:07pm
Msg #239621

Re: Are you referring to the signature/name affidavit?

Yes, Countrywide.

Reply by GA/Atty on 3/17/08 8:37pm
Msg #239617

Regardless of what the first page of the DoT says, the borrowers should always sign as they hold title. This can be found on the title commitment or on page 1 of the 1003. The fact that the name is printed differently on the first page is a mistake, but not necessarily a substantive one.

When the clerk goes to index the security deed, he is supposed to index it by the signature, not by the name printed on the first page. Of course many probably do not bother to do this as 99% of the time they are exactly the same.

Anyway - short answer is yes, I have run into this, and I think you should follow their instructions.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/17/08 8:55pm
Msg #239619

Respectfully disagree, GA/Atty

"Regardless of what the first page of the DoT says, the borrowers should always sign as they hold title. This can be found on the title commitment or on page 1 of the 1003. The fact that the name is printed differently on the first page is a mistake, but not necessarily a substantive one."

The DoT or Mortgage is suppposed to be drafted in accordance with the title commitment, which is drafted after a title search is done and shows exactly how the parties hold title - this is provided to the lender prior to the docs being drawn so lender and/or TC knows HOW to draft the docs - so the names SHOULD be as the parties hold title...and it most certainly is a substantive problem if the names don't match...

And the 1003 has no part in this at all...that information is taken by the LO well prior to closing - and we all know how reliable the LO's information can be.

And may in Ga, but I believe the recorder indexes the security deeds by Grantor name (which is how they hold title) which is on page 1, not signature.

My .02.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/17/08 8:57pm
Msg #239620

And I should add here as hindsight's 20/20

this is not the decision to be made by the SA - all we can do is identify, try to straighten it out and do what we're told...

Also...last sentence should read "and maybe in GA"...not "and may in Ga"....sorry..

Reply by Williams - Steve on 3/17/08 9:13pm
Msg #239623

Re: Respectfully disagree, GA/Atty

So, the lender was in a hurry to draft the docs or the title company was dragging their feet. This happened twice in a short period of time.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/17/08 9:21pm
Msg #239629

I don't know what happened in your case

I just know that in 25 years of doing closings in CT, first comes the title order from the lender, then the title search, draft the title commitment, send to lender, lender drafts docs....name on docs must match title commitment ("you can't mortgage and/or sell what you don't own"..

Reply by sue_pa on 3/17/08 9:29pm
Msg #239631

Linda, are you 'old' (like Sylvia)? I am still 'young'.

A "few" years ago when I worked in a law office, we did it the same way - I'm not sure how the process works the past 7 or 8 years since I've worked but things seem to have dramatically changed. We had to have the binder to the lender 3 days prior to closing or it didn't happen. Of course, this was still in the days of overnight docs. We also represented the buyer/borrower so we called the shots, not the broker or lender. Our clients had representation. Today, the borrowers seldom have representation. The title agent has a duty to the borrower but they are hired by the lender and/or broker and that is where their loyalties lie. Another tangent here - this is why we see the amount of Quit Claim Deeds we see. In over 25 years in a law office I didn't see nearly the number of QCDs that I've seen in this business. Reason - the title company doesn't represent the borrower so they can't/don't go over the importance of proper vesting.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/17/08 9:35pm
Msg #239632

"Old" hmmmm, not sure how to take that young lady!!!!

LOL

I haven't been in this business 25 years, so I am the "young" one

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/17/08 9:43pm
Msg #239633

ROFL...no..I'm not old like Sylvia....

I'm old like dirt... and I can relate to everything you said...heck...I remember having to type the note myself - no typos, typeovers, white-out!!!!..,,right!!...tell me no typos allowed, I
was toast...

Fax, computers, internet sure have changed things....nothing prepared ahead of time any more (and hasn't been for many years) and QC deeds, IMO, because of the do-it-yourselfers out there...no idea what the ramifications are to signing that deed.

Honestly, although I love what I do, I see many people who really need the services of an attorney...but hey, it's not for me to say...

Reply by sue_pa on 3/17/08 10:02pm
Msg #239637

Re: ROFL...no..I'm not old like Sylvia....

settlement sheets done in pencil at the table ...

No such thing as a Note - it was a Bond & Warrant (I'm almost positive)

Exhibit A - no such thing. Nor would I permit such a thing when I recently purchased property - I wanted that metes and bounds typed right there for all (especially me !!) to see.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/17/08 10:46pm
Msg #239645

"Exhibit A - no such thing" yep yep

typed that silly thing in a teeny weeny space...AND THEN followed by "Said premises are subject to building lines, if established..." yada yada..yeah, right - that's not gonna fit...

And oh did I hate the descriptions that began "Beginning at the northwest corner and commencing 28 degrees E.."...oy...there was another day shot!!

Not too many settlement sheets done at the table...changes yes...but always friendly...good ole boys "no problem..

Reply by Pat/IL on 3/17/08 10:15pm
Msg #239640

Re: It has nothing to do with loyaly

Sue, the title company represents the lender because the title comp-any has a fiduciary duty to protect the lender's collateral interest, not because of any loyalty. The same would be the case if the borrower chose the title company directly.

As for all of those quit claim deeds, I think it has more to do with the lenders' creative thoughts about making the square borrower fit into their round hole. Quite honestly, I think the quit claim deeds are used too casually. I think borrowers should receive legal advice before transfering interest in their property.

In Illinois, the deed is supposed to be prepared by an attorney, with legal representation. Unfortunately, even the lawyers don't always provide adequate advice. In my own experience purchasing two homes, neither the vesting agreed with our ID, nor were our options of tenancy advised. Tenancy determines right of survivorship, among other things, and is an important thing to consider when receiving a deed.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/17/08 10:58pm
Msg #239646

Re: It has nothing to do with loyaly

"the title company represents the lender because the title comp-any has a fiduciary duty to protect the lender's collateral interest, not because of any loyalty." That's the purpose of the title insurance policy - to insure the lender's first lien position (or whatever lien position) against any mistakes in the searchers' bringdown or the root title. And that's why lenders require title searches and title insurance to begin with - not only to determine how title is held but to make sure their path to their desired lien position is cleared.

I think the point Sue was making is it's all cutthroat now...the almight dollar...NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE, has any sense of duty to the borrower or the buyer or the seller - as long as everyone's fee is paid. Used to be that attorneys really cared about the deals their clients were getting involved in - mostly because everyone knew everyone else and their kids grew up together. Now no one really cares as long as you agree to pay the fee. It's very, very different.


JMHO

Reply by dickb/wi on 3/18/08 1:56pm
Msg #239709

the lenders policy is paid for by the buyer and/or

the borrower. respa says that the title co used is up to the buyer/borrower and not the lender or seller. in my opinion the title co does not have a fiduciary relationship with the lender, but merely [spelling?] insures that the title is clear and that the mortgage will be in primary position in the chain of events subject only to real estate taxes, which [as in wi] may not even have been levied yet.

i am not an attorney or autorized to practice law in wi, except for limited real estate law and the above represents only my humble opinion based on 47 years of experience.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/18/08 6:45pm
Msg #239726

Dick, just a quick note..

In Florida the Seller chooses the Title Company and pays for the title insurance.

Reply by dickb/wi on 3/18/08 10:10pm
Msg #239753

that is usually the way it is done here also, but.....

respa dictates that for the lenders policy [which is paid for by the buyer] the buyer can choose the title co who s/he wants.....that may be a different co than the seller chooses....however the buyer will usually get a better rate getting the lenders coverage at the same co that issued the purchasers coverage.....i know some states split the cost evenly between buyer and seller, but not in wi, however that doesn't change the respa rules.......

Reply by Pat/IL on 3/18/08 10:53pm
Msg #239754

Re: Dick, 47 years is impressive.

You entered the real estate field four years before I was born. However, I still have to disagree with you. In my (measly, compared to your years in real estate) 19 years in the title biz, I have picked up a few nuggets, too.

Yes, the borrower pays for the title insurance and has a right to choose the insurer. But the duty is to the insured. When the lender is the insured, the title agent's job is to protect the lender's collateral interest. This includes perfecting the lien (ensuring its enforcability, which directly relates to the original question), insuring its position, and following the lender's instructions.

The borrower also pays for a credit report to protect the lender's interest. And the appraisal? To protect the lender's interest. The borrower has specific rights, but those rights are protected by law and not by the title insurance policy.

Reply by Ralph Wedertz on 3/19/08 1:50am
Msg #239762

Re: I don't know what happened in your case

Good gravy! Obviously no one has paid any attention to the question. ServiceLink acts as the escrow company for a great many Countrywide offices. They do their due diligence and determine how they want the name(s) to be signed.

They then TELL the notary on (what I call) the Policeman Page. (It has a cartoon of a Policeman with a Stop Sign - A "get your attention" kind of thing.) On the page, they indicate exactly how they want the signature(s) to be on ALL documents, no matter what is typed on the signature line. This differs from what we are originally taught: Sign as the name is typed. When you work for ServiceLink that rule can change. 95% of the time the instructions match what is on the loan and the escrow documents. On occasion Countrywide gets it wrong and ServiceLink "corrects it" by instructing the notary to have the borrowers sign in a specific manner. What is so hard about that? Do what they tell you, they pay you, you live happily ever after. I see in the 10,000 replies above that everyone is now some sort of title expert. Got a question when this occurs? CALL ServiceLink! How hard can this possibly be?

Reply by sue_pa on 3/17/08 9:17pm
Msg #239625

agree with Linda

In my state, they use the face page of the document when indexing - in theory, the face page, signature page & notary block all must be an exact match - in reality that doesn't always happen. A handful of my clients send me the title commitment - their docs are NEVER wrong. Seldom do we have a commitment to look at.

Reply by dickb/wi on 3/18/08 2:10pm
Msg #239712

i have had them where page one says.....

john h. doe and mary m. doe husband and wife with right of survivorship. then they pre fill the ack with the same wording and expect me to sign and seal the ack.....the first thing i do is to draw a line thru "husband and wife with right of survivorship" and then sign and seal....i have had title co's [and funding mortgage brokers] go thru the roof and try to get me to send a new ack just the way the original was made out. of course i refuse to do this and tell them to call sos if they are not happy. those who have called the sos found out that i was correct and i have no further problems. we must remember that the ack and jurat is our testament under oath to the truthfullness of what is written in the notary block....it is not a block to be prepared by a lender/title co/mortgage broker-funder or any one else....it is the sole realm of the notary. i can only notarize information in the block that i have indisputable proof is true.

Reply by GA/Atty on 3/18/08 12:08am
Msg #239652

Sounds to me like you agree with me, mostly .......

The first page of the 1003 has a data field called something like "vesting name" or "title vested as"..... something like that - this field should be independent of the borrower and co-borrower fields. The data in this field should conform with the title commitment.

Of course, as we both stated, the first page of the security deed should conform also, so maybe if one is wrong both might be wrong. But the field on the 1003 does indeed exist........

I believe you are also correct in that many clerks (usually deputy clerks) index DoT's by the name on the first page as opposed to the signatures; however, that is not what they are really supposed to do. They are supposed to go by the signatures.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/18/08 8:54am
Msg #239674

What??

"I believe you are also correct in that many clerks (usually deputy clerks) index DoT's by the name on the first page as opposed to the signatures; however, that is not what they are really supposed to do. They are supposed to go by the signatures."

I'd like to see your basis for this - since when is it okay for the recorder to ignore the title vesting on page 1 of the security instrument and go by how Bobby Joe may have signed Robert J.'s name?? That, IMO, is ridiculous.

And I still stand by what I said about the 1003 - although there IS a place for title vesting, it's not always correct - in fact I'd venture to say it's probably 95% of the time incorrect - because the 1003 is completed prior to the title work ever being done...I've seen 1003's with title vested in only one name when, in fact, there were two, sometimes more, people on title. The 1003 is the LAST place I'd look to determine how title is held.

Reply by GA/Atty on 3/18/08 8:03pm
Msg #239741

Here are the answers to your questions:

"I'd like to see your basis for this - since when is it okay for the recorder to ignore the title vesting on page 1 of the security instrument and go by how Bobby Joe may have signed Robert J.'s name?? That, IMO, is ridiculous."


7-6 GRANTOR NAMES
On a deed or mortgage, only the names of those individuals or entities who have signed the document shall be placed in the Grantor Index. For example, if the grantor clause on a mortgage said “John Smith and Mary Smith” granted the mortgage, but only John Smith signed it, then only John Smith’s name would be placed in the index. Conversely, if the grantor clause only mentions John Smith but the mortgage is signed by both John Smith and Mary Smith, then both names should be entered in the index.

That is from a Massachusetts jurisdiction, but it is the accepted standard across the U.S.



"And I still stand by what I said about the 1003 - although there IS a place for title vesting, it's not always correct - in fact I'd venture to say it's probably 95% of the time incorrect - because the 1003 is completed prior to the title work ever being done...I've seen 1003's with title vested in only one name when, in fact, there were two, sometimes more, people on title. The 1003 is the LAST place I'd look to determine how title is held."

If you have seen folks fill in vesting information before reviewing a title commitment or an abstract, then those folks do not understand what they are doing. While I agree that the 1003 form is not typically the first place one might look in a loan package to determine correct vesting information, it is one of the few places where, specifically, the vesting information is supposed to be entered in directly from the abstract or commitment.

Why one would look at a signature affidavit or a mailing address certification ( or 50ish other docs) for proper vesting info before the 1003 is a mystery to me.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/18/08 8:50pm
Msg #239743

Thanks for your response...

"Why one would look at a signature affidavit or a mailing address certification ( or 50ish other docs) for proper vesting info before the 1003 is a mystery to me. " I agree...IMO the only authority of title vesting is the title commitment..again...JMHO - and not our job as signing agents.

"That is from a Massachusetts jurisdiction, but it is the accepted standard across the U.S."....is that so....really...now why is GA/Atty quoting Mass. jurisdiction??..hmmmm

Reply by GA/Atty on 3/18/08 8:58pm
Msg #239744

Was near the top when I googled indexing standards n/m