Posted by Gerry_VT on 3/20/08 3:02pm
Msg #240056

Notary mission creep

Diane Cipa pointed out in another thread that there is notary work in mortgage origination, and asks "Why not send the local dry cleaner or taxi cab driver to do glorified courier work?"

I've noticed this is not the only case of organizations asking notaries to do things that really have nothing to do with notarizations. I received an e-mail asking if I wanted to do drive-by occupancy inspections.

Another organization, the digital certificate authority, wants notaries to verify the identiy of people applying for their personal web-of-trust certificates. They want the notary to complete a statement that is neither a jurat nor an acknowledgement certificate, and retain copies of the ID and form for up to 31 days, waiting for a call from Thawte to verify the form. ( See https://www.thawte.com/ssl-digital-certificates/free-guides-whitepapers/pdf/ttp.pdf )

Interestingly, once the person applying for the Thawte digital certificate is approved, he/she will be a "thawte Notary" and able to verifiy the identity of additional applicants for Thawte digital certificates. Thawte is not the only non-government organization to designate notaries; the Catholic Church does this too.

Reply by Gerry_VT on 3/20/08 3:03pm
Msg #240058

Re: Notary mission creep CORRECTION

In my previous post, please insert "Thawte" after "the digital certificate authority".

Reply by desktopfull on 3/20/08 3:25pm
Msg #240064

Wow, she's playing both sides of the fence on this one. Wonder if the RESPA signings is listed as "one of the ways for notaries to make money" in that book that she keeps promoting to all of us "bodies with a seal".

Reply by DianeCipa on 3/21/08 9:00am
Msg #240141

HUH? Which book is that?

The ONLY book I promote is Your Ten Favorite Words by Reb Livingston. I love her poetry and she IS my niece and so I get bragging rights.

Reply by Gerry_VT on 3/20/08 3:43pm
Msg #240066

Re: Notary mission creep ANOTHER CORRECTION

Sorry, Diane Cipa pointed out there is NO notary work in mortgage origination; I take it to mean she was pointing out that no notarial acts are performed while doing a mortgage origination.

Reply by desktopfull on 3/20/08 4:35pm
Msg #240071

Re: Notary mission creep ANOTHER CORRECTION

All of the RESPA's that I received had a couple of documents to notarize. Others may not but the ones from Nova Star definately have notarizations.

Reply by Ernest__CT on 3/20/08 8:15pm
Msg #240096

Not all RESPA signings have docs to notarize. n/m

Reply by Ernest__CT on 3/20/08 8:18pm
Msg #240097

Am I understanding this?!

A Notary Public verified the identity of Chris Smith, then Chris Smith can verify the identity of Pat Kim, then Pat Kim can verify the identity of ...? Huh?

Reply by Gerry_VT on 3/20/08 9:48pm
Msg #240115

Re: Am I understanding this?! -- almost

Ernest_CT's version is almost right. Two notaries public verify Chris Smith, which makes Chris Smith a thawte Notary. Nine other people get verified in the same way. Charlie Jones then visits Chris Smith, and gets 10 verification points. Charlie visits 4 other thawte Notaries and gets at accumulates at least 50 verification points. At that point, he can get a digital certificate with his name in it. If he keeps visiting more thawte Notaries, and gets to 100 points, he becomes a thawte Notary.

New thawe Notaries give out 10 verification points, but as they do more verifications, their point value increases, up to 35 points.

This is not unlike the Pretty Good Privacy web of trust. It's sort of like a friend-of-a-friend system. I saw Chris Smith's ID, and he saw Mary Roe's ID, and she saw Charlie Jones ID, so if I get an email from Charlie Jones, I can trust his signature. At least the Pretty Good Privacy system does not use the word "Notary".

Reply by Ernest__CT on 3/21/08 12:15am
Msg #240121

Well, what's in it for the _real_ Notaries Public?

It sounds as if there's going to be a proliferation of these so-called "thawte notaries". How does that help the real Notaries Public, other than getting paid for _one_ notarization per "thawte notariy"? I'm all for the public good, but not at the (literal!) expense of my own business. What did I miss?

Reply by Gerry_VT on 3/21/08 12:34am
Msg #240123

What should real Notaries Public know about Thawte

The so-called thawte Notaries are no real threat to us, all they can do is sign people up for low security Thawte digital certificates, which are mostly used for e-mail. If we want low-security certificates for ourselves, the Thawte certificates are free (if you do it right) and very convenient, but I would never use one in connection with a notarial act.

What we should take note of is that some digital certificates are better than others; the Thawte free personal digital certificates offer little proof of identity.

Reply by Ernest__CT on 3/21/08 1:27am
Msg #240125

Thanks, Gerry_VT. I thoroughly reviewed the thawte Site ...

... and found it to be mostly nonsense. At least for a _real_ Notary Public.

(Yes, "thawte" is in all lower case.)

There are a number of issues I'd have:

1) If a _real_ Notary is commissioned in a state that does _not_ have an online registry (official list) of Notaries, the _real_ Notary Public cannot be a thawte "notary" easily.

2) Fees are not regulated. At all. At least one thawte "notary" does not charge.

3) Apparently, the actual directory of thawte "notaries" cannot be viewed unless you sign up! Huh?r I can't find a local thawte "notary" until I've already disclosed a bunch of personal information to an organization located in South Africa?! (I wish I were making this up!)

4) Who and what organizations are going to accept the thawte verification of my identity? How can I know whether it is going to be worth the investment, even to prove my own identity, let alone becoming a thawte "notary"?

Believe it or not, I'm still interested in the whole thawte thing. Comments, anyone?

Reply by Gerry_VT on 3/21/08 11:52am
Msg #240164

obscure terminology

Ernest wrote "If a _real_ Notary is commissioned in a state that does _not_ have an online registry (official list) of Notaries, the _real_ Notary Public cannot be a thawte "notary" easily."

In thawte-speak, a "thawte Notary" is one of the kinds of people who can verify the ID of applicants for thawte personal e-mail certificates. The other kinds of people who chan check ID are "trusted third parties" which includes lawyers, CPAs, and bank managers who work in offices and can be telephoned at work, and Notaries Public who's status can be verified through a state web site. The key seems to be that they want to be able to look the trusted third party in some kind of directory to get some minimal verification that the trusted third party is for real. That part of their scheme isn't such a bad idea really; we all know how easy it is to get a fake notary stamp.

Reply by Ernest__CT on 3/21/08 1:31am
Msg #240126

Echoing Gerry_VT: We, as _real_ Notaries Public, should ...

... never even think of accepting the thawte verification of identity as sufficient proof of identity to perform a notarial act. Each of us needs to follow our own state's requirement for identification.

Reply by Gerry_VT on 3/21/08 11:27am
Msg #240161

Re: Echoing Gerry_VT: We, as _real_ Notaries Public, should ...

While I agree with Ernest's point about not accepting a Thawte digital certificate (of any kind) as a satisfactory way to ID a client, my point was that if a Notary Public wishs to perform a notarial act on an electronic document, the Notary Public would be well advised to use a better digital certificate than the free personal certificates from Thawte.

Reply by DianeCipa on 3/21/08 9:02am
Msg #240142

this is the copy of a copy of a copy

degradation of licensure...........see what I mean?

It never hits home until it hits YOUR home.

Reply by Mia on 3/21/08 12:03pm
Msg #240168

What are you trying to prove?

Diane,
Appears that you come on here (Notary Rotary), because of what? Is your business suffering?
Do you not have enough work? Or do you just want to come on here and do your harangue?
What has brought on this hatred for Notaries Public / NSA's?
What is YOUR point for all of this?

I truly am surprised that you are allowed to continue with your vile speeches.
Maybe you want to be noticed - maybe you think that saying something long enough (even if
it may not hold any true substance) will get you more attention.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/21/08 1:00pm
Msg #240176

IMO....Blog-fodder n/m

Reply by DianeCipa on 3/21/08 2:20pm
Msg #240183

Ask Desktop....

I was busy minding my own business. I'm just sweeping up the dribbles DT is leaving behind.

Reply by JK/TX on 3/21/08 8:05pm
Msg #240210

Re: Ask Desktop....Question please

I’m curious, Diane. When you get phone calls from other title companies requesting you to close/sign-up their borrower/buyer or seller for them do you accommodate that title company and their client if you can fit them into your schedule?

If yes, do you charge a fee? If yes, what would this fee description be on your invoice to the TC?

Reply by DianeCipa on 3/24/08 4:24pm
Msg #240461

Re: Ask Desktop....Question please

We stopped doing witness closings close to a year ago.

Reply by BrendaTx on 3/21/08 4:21pm
Msg #240197

Re: this is the copy of a copy of a copy

**It never hits home until it hits YOUR home.**

I appreciate your candidness with this remark, Diane.

I have never necessarily disagreed with your observations that "something" should be done to shore up the professional status of the notary who handles signings/RESPA signings, and so forth.

For clarity, I feel it's just important for it to be clear that everyone understand why you feel that way and that the notary business has hurt the title business.

Many people who read this board do not really understand how things were before the internet and "far-reaching" title companies and lenders began to encroach on the economic base of small local lenders.

I could ramble on for pages about how this has damaged title companies and lenders but it would have more meaning coming from you so they can understand why you disagree with them handling signings at all.

The problem with telling them that demanding of lawmakers that laws should be made so that they can be licensed is that it's a brick wall. All such activity would do is to make lawmakers figure out where to put closing procedures such as signing of documents back into the hands of law firms and title companies...where there is already licenses for such things.

Again I will say this. Notaries did not bully their way into this industry. They were invited by title companies and lenders who couldn't handle the overflow. Now that they are here they are cutting into the business of title companies. The status quo is the only one that will keep them here, IMHO. It would make me happy for everyone if there were a way to get said licensing. But it isn't going to happen. If they lobby their lawmakers it will backfire in their faces.

So what's the answer? I don't know. I just feel that to make a state representative look at the situation is probably a very bad idea for the notary who does loan signings but a very good idea for the title industry who would like to see it stopped.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 3/22/08 8:37pm
Msg #240321

Notaries did not bully their way into this industry

Amen to that, Brenda.
My first signing was 2 months after I got my NP commission, because a TC in CA
needed someone to do a signing.....no one was in my area.
They said they would "walk me through it" and they did.
That was my introduction to the signing industry....no NNA promises, but a "far-reaching"
title companies almost begging me.