Posted by Linda Juenger on 3/29/08 4:41pm
Msg #241322

What to do

I have made a big mistake. I got to closing this morning (Sat) and was told by borrower that this was supposed to be 2 loans, a 1st and a 2nd. I only have 1st loan with me.

When I was called by SS, I was NOT told that it was a 1st and 2nd and only quoted my fee for a 1st at that distance. I would have never quoted what I did for 2 loans. So, that being said, I only assumed it was 1 loan.

I had to print doc's off their website and only printed 1 loan. I honestly didn't even see that their were 2 links to print till I just looked at it again.

The borrowers signed the 1 loan only, with both of us thinking someone screwed up somewhere and it would get corrected during the RTC period. Get this, she is a BOA employee and has had a hell of a time getting this loan ready to close. She is so frustrated with her bank at this point, and now this happens. She is truly blaming BOA.

I tried calling the SS, title and LO from the table to ask about the other loan and NO ONE was available on Sat. Ticks me off that if I am working on a Sat, they should have someone available after hours.

I had a horrible experience a month or so ago on a Sat loan with this same company. I think this is it for me working on Sat with this partciular company.

So, I will fess up to my mistake, but its too late to get the 2nd loan signed today. They are not available and can't reach the borrowers, I've tried and tried. I would have gone back right now, but they aren't home. Are the entire 2 loans going to have to be redrawn, or just the 2nd loan that was not signed? I feel terrible. I know its my mistake, but again, I was called for a re-fi, nothing was ever ever said that it was a double. No wonder they jumped at my fee and never said a thing. If I had been told it was a double, of course I would have never left my house without 2 sets of docs. Thanks for the vent.

Reply by LkArrowhd/CA on 3/29/08 4:57pm
Msg #241325

Re:That's too bad, I won't scold, we all make mistakes.

I would do whatever it takes to make this right for everyone, the ss, and the client.
I'd eat the cost of my error.
I'd be very careful in the future about when getting the docs from a web site, I always double and triple check for more then one set of docs.....again I'm not scolding.
One of my first questions when quoting a fee, is this a first and a second, just get in the habit....again I'm not scolding.
Blame doesn't matter at this point. Even if the client is ticked at the lender, they get over that quickly, they usually don't want to start over with a new lender.
Be pleased to be working, Saturdays or not, in this market.
You are able to print the second set of docs, right?
I'd keep contacting the borrower until she can meet to sign the second set.
Make it right, it will only benefit you in the long run. We all have some bad days in the business.

Reply by Calnotary on 3/29/08 5:01pm
Msg #241326

Re: Re:That's too bad, I won't scold, we all make mistakes.

Sometimes SS don't know that there are 2 loans in the package. It was your responsability to check that.

Reply by CaliNotary on 3/29/08 10:44pm
Msg #241356

Re: Re:That's too bad, I won't scold, we all make mistakes.

"Sometimes SS don't know that there are 2 loans in the package. It was your responsability to check that."

No it wasn't. It's the lender or title company's responsibility to tell the signing service and it's the signing service's responsibility to tell us.

If you call a plumber to come fix your kitchen sink and your bathroom sink also needs fixing, is it his responsibility to ask you about the bathroom if you don't tell him about it? Or is it your responsibility to tell him exactly what you're hiring him to do?

Reply by CJ on 3/29/08 5:02pm
Msg #241327

This is a mess, and it has happened to me too. It DOES help when they tell you it is two loans, becuase then you know what to look for. Sometimes, the SS does not know it was two loans. But if they sent the docs, then they can't plead ignorance.

In hidesight, when you are with borrowers, and they say it is two loans, then either someone didn't send them, or you didn't print them. Those are the only choices. So tell the borrowers that is the case, apologize, and find out what their shedule is for the rest of the day so that you can come up with a Plan B.

Tell them that you will sign this loan now, then you will go home and check your computer and call them whether or not the second loan is there. Also, find out at the table, when they will be available for your to come back today and sign. I know it is a HUGE inconvinecence, but sometimes you have to eat it.

There is no point in calling the SS until you know if it is your fault or not. If you get home and the docs are there, they don't need to know that you goofed. What they don't know won't hurt them. But if that is the case, you can tell them on monday that it was double email docs, and you only quoted them your single email docs fee.

What to do NOW:

Leave a message with the borrowers to call you back NO MATTER WHAT when they get your message, and that you will come over at ANY time to get those docs signed today before midnight. The docs are good until midnight, so you still have time. Tell them you don't care if they call you even at 10:00 tonight. Then go back over there and sign them.

And when people ask you if this is a fun, little, part-time job, be sure to tell them about this experience.

Reply by LKT/CA on 3/29/08 5:24pm
Msg #241333

Thanks for sharing, Linda. This will help us all remember to be on the look-out for what the SS's forget to mention, and what we forget to ask.

Reply by MichiganAl on 3/29/08 6:41pm
Msg #241338

I agree with what other's have said

SS don't always know if there are two loans. They don't have a problem with adjusting the fee. But in this case, I'd swallow any fee. I'd be calling the borrower up until 11:59 p.m. begging to come back and get this done. If it doesn't get done, I'd call the SS first thing Monday, admit the mistake, and tell them you'll do whatever they need you to do (legally of course) to get things corrected and that you are waiving your entire fee.

Reply by CaliNotary on 3/29/08 10:40pm
Msg #241354

I don't agree at all

And honestly, I'm surprised to see everyone saying pretty much the same thing.

Our fee shouldn't be contingent on the fact that we have to happen to notice something extra that nobody informed us about. If nobody told her there were going to be 2 loans then it's not her fault that she printed out the docs for one loan and went to the signing. It may not be the signing service's fault either if they didn't know there were 2 loans, but that doesn't pass the responsibility onto the notary.

There is no way she should have to waive ANY of her fee, she should only be adjusting it upward to account for the second loan. The only "discount" I would even consider would be charging half price for the second loan, as if it were all done at the same time instead of 2 separate trips. If you could do them both on the same day, great, if not I'd just try to do it Sunday and call Monday morning. If they need to redraw docs it's either the lender's fault for not telling the signing service there were 2 loans, or the signing service's fault if they knew there were 2 loans and didn't tell the notary. But it's definitely NOT the notary's fault.

If we happen to notice things like this before the signing, great, of course you do what you need to do at that point. But if we miss it we certainly shouldn't be penalized for not doing something nobody ever told us we were supposed to do in the first place.

Reply by Pat/CA on 3/29/08 11:34pm
Msg #241360

I agree with you, we do make mistakes...

and should rectify it for sure. But to eat the entire fee is something I would not do! Reputable ss's wouldn't expect us to either and there's just becoming so many disreputable ones this business is becoming disgusting!

Reply by MichiganAl on 3/30/08 1:59am
Msg #241375

I don't agree that you don't agree

I'm surprised that someone as experienced as you would say that. SS don't always know that there's a second loan until the docs actually arrive (very often last minute). I always scroll through to see if there are other files, I'm sure you do as well. When you go to these websites to download docs, don't they sometimes break the files down into several downloads, even if it's just one loan? Several companies I work with do. I always scroll to see if there are other files listed under the borrower's name. If I missed a second file, I know I would feel like I didn't do my job properly. Might not be 100% my fault, but I should have caught it. In my opinion, it's just another example of how an experienced professional distinguishes themselves from the rest.

Reply by LkArrowhd/CA on 3/30/08 12:01pm
Msg #241395

Re: I don't agree that you don't agree-Al that is absolutely

correct, we all work differently in how we elect to run our business. Blame and who is at fault doesn't matter, that will get worked out. The most important factor is getting the job completed at any cost and of course within legal limits. The borrower is number one, ss and lender are equal for me. The Notary knows her role and the most important role he or she plays is performing her or his duties, of which include double and triple checking being extremely important. Checking e-mails the hiring entity has sent you that often have a few words of an important message as you are printing docs can't be missed, taking another call while you are doing this and so on so forth. Precision is paramount at all times.
And we should not forget there are always three sides to a story, yours, mine and the right side. And everyone has an opinion, always.
Just do the job you willingly accepted to do and do it above and beyond......It's all about client service......from all sides.

Reply by CaliNotary on 3/30/08 2:19pm
Msg #241418

Re: I don't agree that you don't agree-Al that is absolutely

"The most important factor is getting the job completed at any cost "

That's a terrible attitude to have as a business owner. The most important factor is getting the job completed at any REASONABLE cost. And assuming the cost of the mistakes of others is not reasonable.

Reply by CaliNotary on 3/30/08 2:07pm
Msg #241413

Re: I don't agree that you don't agree

Of course there's nothing wrong with double checking for that kind of stuff. But I don't think it's a case of our not doing our jobs properly if we miss it when we weren't told about it in the first place. And I don't think we should eat the cost of fixing it when somebody else didn't do their job properly by either informing the notary or the signing service that there were 2 loans instead of just one.

My theory on that is simple. Whoever screws up is the one who eats the cost of fixing the error. I have yet to encounter a signing service or title company who has volunteered to pay me for the cost of fixing one my screwups, so why should I volunteer to do it for them?

Reply by CaliNotary on 3/30/08 2:15pm
Msg #241416

And one more thing

"SS don't always know that there's a second loan until the docs actually arrive (very often last minute)"

If it's our responsibility to look for a second loan when as far as we know we're only doing a single, don't you also think it's the SS responsibility to ask the TC if there is more than one loan when they receive the assignment? I don't see how you can give them a free pass on assuming responsibility, but not do the same for the notary.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 3/29/08 7:13pm
Msg #241341

You have tomorrow as well

Second set will have a different date, but the recission date will be the same. Monday give whomever hired you a call explain the different dates, no harm no foul.

Reply by OR on 3/29/08 7:19pm
Msg #241342

Re: You have tomorrow as well----I agree n/m

Reply by MikeC/NY on 3/29/08 7:20pm
Msg #241343

Was there money due to the lender on the HUD-1? If so - depending on how date-sensitive the docs are - not getting the 2nd signed is probably going to cause a complete redraw, since the 2nd is intended to make up that shortfall. If that's the case, the only thing you can do is apologize for the mistake and offer to do the re-sign for free (and maybe forfeit your fee on the first one, just to sweeten the pot a little).

Everyone makes mistakes at some point - it's how we react to them that separates the pros from the amateurs.

Reply by Linda Juenger on 3/29/08 11:23pm
Msg #241359

Update

I have tried and tried to call the borrowers and they are not home. It is now 11:15pm as I write this. Its not going to happen tonight.

I will try again tomorrow and explain what happened to the borrowers. The way I look at it, it is 25% my fault and the other 75% belongs to SS and Title. I was not aware there were 2 loans, only quoted fee for 1 loan. I tried and tried, left message for LO, SS and no one was available on Sat. That sucks IMO. I would have immediately went home and printed that 2nd loan out and worried about getting payment straightened out later if I could have talked to someone.

If I can get them to sign tomorrow (of course using tomorrows date) and it wasn't the right thing to do, then it wasn't the right thing to do, but I tried. All I can do at this point.
I sure hate when things happen like this. A first in a very long time for me. I guess I was due for a big mistake. Thanks all for the replies. Made me feel a lot better. I've really stressed over this. I want to do the right thing, especially for the borrowers.

Reply by Pat/CA on 3/29/08 11:37pm
Msg #241361

Yup! Life's short-we all mess up-you're giving your best! n/m

Reply by Joan Bergstrom on 3/30/08 12:34am
Msg #241367

Linda Don't beat yourself up to much for this missed 2nd

There are not a lot of 1st & 2nd loans being signed in the U.S. right now. I have done 1 in the last couple of months.

The mistake you made if you should have immediately left the signing (got the 1st signed and told the borrowers you need to schedule a time when you can come back today after you find out if you made a mistake or the lender made a mistake.)

If was a lender mistake call the borrower and tell them there wasn't a 2nd loan listed to download (tell the borrowers to call their Loan Officer and you should call the company that hired you immediately) and if there was a 2nd (which is the case) tell the borrrowers you will be "right over at the time you all agreed on and get it signed."

We all make mistakes and it's how we try to correct the mistake that makes all the difference.

My suggestion is to try to get it signed tomorrow and if it's "date sensitive" and can't be signed on Sunday than at least you are pro active and tried to take care of the problem and they will re draw the docs.
Apologize to the borrowers and the company that hired you and do what I teach in my classes:
Don't get defensive when you make a mistake and don't get an attitude that maybe you should have been told there were 2 loans. Sure you should have been told
but........................... The important thing is to have the company that hired you hire you again!
We all learn from our mistakes and we try not to make the same mistake again.

If you want to call me tomorrow and talk about this: 951-522-4919

Reply by Linda Juenger on 3/30/08 9:33am
Msg #241389

Thank you Joan n/m

Reply by CJ on 3/30/08 11:47am
Msg #241393

Re: Update: I am upset with the borrowers now.

I am upset that the borrowers don't care enough about their loan to want to stay in the loop. If it was MY loan, and the second one was not there, of course I'd be upset. I know yelling at the notary does not help, but I would get the notary's phone number and I would want to stay in touch with them. The notary, the SS, the title people and everyone want this to sign, and then the borrower can't be bothered to stay available?

Even if I were the borrower and I had a wedding to go to after the signing. I would exchange cell phone numbers, call after the ceremoney, and arrange for the notary to meet me near or at the reception site, even it if means signing in the parting lot.

I hope every time you left a message with them, you told them what time you were leaving the message.

I am so sorry about all of this.

Reply by CF on 3/30/08 12:19pm
Msg #241398

In reagards to the RTC and both loans

Signing the 1st loan on Sat would mean the the RTC starts on Monday- so you should still be able to go back out today and get the 2nd loan signed- with the right dates Sunday March 30- and the RTC will not start until tomorrow for both of them. Most docs have a few days before they expire....that is most. Some lenders will redraw.....I think that all will be OK- as long as you handle it....and you have been doing all that you can for the situation. You should not give up your fee- if I was in this situation....I would go back out and if the need be do the resign and just expect to keep my same fee that I quoted orginally. I would not try and get a 2nd loan fee.....this is a mistake(not on your part)...but the way that you handle it- should let the SS know that you are a professional- and that you are "willing to take one for the team".

Reply by CaliNotary on 3/30/08 5:28pm
Msg #241438

Re: In reagards to the RTC and both loans

"I would go back out and if the need be do the resign and just expect to keep my same fee that I quoted orginally. I would not try and get a 2nd loan fee"

I don't get this at all. If they called you and told you that there were 2 loans you'd obviously quote a fee for 2 loans. So because they didn't tell her there were 2 loans and she didn't happen to notice the second set of docs, she should make an extra trip, yet not charge the same fee that she would have charged if they had given her the info in the first place? That makes absolutely no sense.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 3/30/08 12:20am
Msg #241364

Cali has it exactly right. SS responsibility's include

getting the assignment and any specific instructions. Like a second loan.

Are we also supposed to confirm there is/not a non-borrowing spouse? A Trust involved? Blue/Black ink? A QC Deed? Do we need to ask a laundry list of possibilities?

No.

Yes, there may have been a clue before the signing. But, to assume more when a single refi was negotiated? And yes, when the second was expected by the borrowers, a set-up would have possibly made a quick-sign of second set more tenable. But, bottom line, the SS is the mediary, it is encumbent upon it to understand the assignment's components and demands, and relay the requirements of the complete order to the notary.

It is also very bad service to be unavailable for clarifications and directions at whatever time the signing is scheduled. A SS that keeps 'banker's hours' is not performing a critical component of the in-home signing structure.

While there is enough blame to go around, the full brunt should not fall to the hapless notary who is led to believe, and acts in good faith on one thing, when another thing is the actual circumstance.

In this case, it is not negligence upon the notary, but upon those who failed to properly define the assignment required of the notary.

Just Two Cents.

Reply by linda/ca on 3/30/08 12:42am
Msg #241369

Re: Cali has it exactly right. SS responsibility's include

I agree with Cali 100% and Susan as well except the part that she feel that the companies should be available on weekends for our convenience.

The only thing I would do in this situation is try to contact the borrower(s) and go back for the second set. On Monday call the hiring company and let them know about the situation and quote my fee for the second set of docs.

Reply by Larry/Ca on 3/30/08 1:13am
Msg #241373

I think the notary.....

that doesn't print and take the second to the signing is shooting themself in the foot. It is not uncommon to accept a single and have the docs arrive as a double. Of course the notary must print and have both loans signed. Of course it is their fault if that doesn't happen because they didn't print both loans.

Reply by LKT/CA on 3/30/08 1:21am
Msg #241374

Re: I think the notary.....

At this point, damage control is in order.

Reply by CaliNotary on 3/30/08 2:09pm
Msg #241414

Re: I think the notary.....

"Of course the notary must print and have both loans signed. Of course it is their fault if that doesn't happen because they didn't print both loans."

If they're told that there are 2 loans, yes. If nobody informed them of that fact, no.

Reply by SueW/Tn on 3/30/08 3:32am
Msg #241380

Cali and Susan are spot on

I don't know an SA that doesn't ask what type of loan they're quoting and even though I certainly agree that the SS is often the last to know...they should be the first to find out before hiring us. I had one last year, supposedly a refi only that turned into a 1st and 2nd (thank you BO for telling me). When I called SS I was told "yep...TWO e-mails were sent to you". She was right, 2 e-mails 15 minutes apart...I ran the first one and ran with it, straight refi right? Ha! Two loans, two trips, two fees...take control Linda because the SS dropped the ball.

Reply by LKT/CA on 3/30/08 9:12am
Msg #241385

Re: Cali and Susan are spot on

One time, I took a last minute signing (2 hr notice) that included a 30 min drive to the borrowers. Printed all the attachments and was ready. For some reason, I informed the TC of when I had to leave to make the appointment on time. 15 min on the road and I get a call from TC saying they had to email additional (not another loan) docs to borrowers for signatures. Then the borrower had this odd looking paper they printed the docs on...it wasn't white or beige...I don't know what it was or what they used it for......so now I keep reems of good quality legal and letter size paper in my car at all times.

Another incident where I did a signing at 11am, 47 miles one way and it was a POA signing....thought I would be finished and on my side of town by about 2pm. It took forever because the first, middle and last names of both were long. For example, TC wanted docs signed as:
(names are made up) Johnathan Franklin Oppenheimer by Elizabeth Genevieve Oppenheimer as Agent and Attorney In Fact. Amazingly, the wife was able to sign all of that tiny, neatly and fit it all on the lines where it was actually readable.

She was a sweet lady but gabby and I tried to just smile and nod hoping she would get the hint to cut the chatter. Since I figured I would be on my side of town by 2pm, I would drop the docs off at the FedEx kinkos there. Well, traffic was a nightmare and I didn't get back to my side of town until almost 5pm. My usual FedEx Kinkos ships until 5pm. So while stuck in very bad freeway traffic, I was able to call and find one that was taking shipments until 6:30pm. I made it by the skin of my teeth. This particular branch is open to the public but has an unlisted number. The 411 operator had to connect me to get directions and hours of operation.

I don't yet have GPS, so now what I do is any signing that's outside of familiar territory, before leaving for the appointment, I go to the shipper's website, put in the borrowers address/or zip code and find the nearest shipper to them plus their hours of operation....that way, in unforeseen circumstances or signings that take longer than normal, or whatever should pop up to delay things, I won't have to stress about getting to the shipper where I live before it closes.

I just shared all that to say, we experience things (good and bad), learn from it and find ways to make the next adventure a smoother more pleasant one.

Reply by Linda Juenger on 3/30/08 9:33am
Msg #241388

Thank you Susan n/m

Reply by dickb/wi on 3/30/08 1:41pm
Msg #241407

a couple of things to be careful with.....

if the docs can't be signed on the same date you need to find out if they are date sensitive or not [most are]....if they are you have 2 choices....get a new set of docs withe a new date-or- do the WRONG thing and back date your notarizations......no mistake is worth doing that as that is the ULTIMATE MISTAKE........my .02..

Reply by Linda Juenger on 3/30/08 2:05pm
Msg #241412

I agree Dick. I will not backdate. I have tried and tried

to get the borrowers today (Sunday) and so far they are not home or answering the phone. I have left numerous messages Sat and again today. We'll see what the rest of the day brings.
There is no way for me to tell if they are date sensitive to Sat only. So, I was hoping to get the 2nd loan signed on Sun so at least have both loans signed, hoping that this was the correct way to handle this. If I was wrong in doing this, so be it, but at least I tried.
It has been so long since I have had 2 loans that I didn't even ask if it was a 1st and 2nd. I am seeing a lot of PMI right now not 2 loans. I know that's no excuse for overlooking a second set of docs on the website but I honestly just wasn't expecting it and didn't see it.
I am human and therefore will make mistakes. I am ready, willing to make this right for everyone especially the borrowers. Someone said earlier that the RTC period starts Monday since it was signed on Sat. So that would be true for the 2nd loan signed on Sunday also. That alone is a help in this situation and maybe can be remidied today (if I can get them signed today). I'll keep everyone posted on the outcome. Thanks again everyone.

Reply by Linda Juenger on 3/30/08 8:09pm
Msg #241450

I was able to meet with the borrowers today (Sun)

and sign the 2nd loan (using todays date). Don't know and won't know till I send it back if its going to be accepted, but at least I got it signed and tried to accomodate all. Borrower told me that the rate expires on Thursday. Was glad to hear that. I think and hope we will be alright. Hope so.

I will negotiate payment on Monday when I explain what/how this happened. I want full fee for 1st loan and will accept 1/2 fee for 2nd. I'm accepting partial responsiblity for this and will compensate with accepting 1/2 of what I would normally get for a 2nd. I think that is fair for all. I sure stressed over this one. Didn't sleep well last night. I guess I'm too much of a perfectionist and want things right. I don't stress over late doc's anymore though. It doesn't help and there's nothing I can do about it. I go with the flow.

Thank you all for the responses. I appreciate it. I'll let you know what happens on Monday when I call and explain.

Reply by Pat/CA on 3/30/08 11:13pm
Msg #241468

YIPPEE! Now you can sleep!

I remember waiting for my first set of docs. I was sooooooo clueless! I kept refreshing my inbox... for hours! Then I did that again first thing in the morning... for hours! I don't even remember when they finally came through but it felt like weeks with the "refreshness." lol

Indeed, lesson #1 comes pretty early in this business!

Reply by CJ on 3/31/08 12:10am
Msg #241474

Thanks for letting us know what happened.

But I would like to know what took the borrowers so long to get back to you. What is more imporant that this?

Reply by Linda Juenger on 3/31/08 7:53am
Msg #241484

CJ. I would like to know that also, but they didn't say

and I didn't ask. I was just thrilled that they finally called me back about 3 on Sunday afternoon. Hubby, daughter and grandson rode along with me, they dropped me off and they scouted out restaurants to go to afterwards. Only took 20 minutes to sign the 2nd loan.

Reply by christiSocal on 3/31/08 10:53pm
Msg #241557

one last thought

When you printed up the docs for the 1st, was the 2nd set even there? Maybe you didn't see them because they weren't. Who knows when they were actually put up...