Posted by Rick_NY on 5/7/08 7:33pm
Msg #246589

NY Notaries, pls: Duh, how to ID someone without photo ID!

I am embarrassed to have to ask this question, but I have never been requested to notarize a signature of someone who had no ID whatsover.

The affiant is an 87 y/o woman who never needed to learn how to drive (I know it's no reason NOT to obtain a non-driver ID) or travel outside the USA. The meeting will take place at her home and two of her children will be there.

I have checked the NY Notary Pulic License law and all is says is the notary must always refuse "to execute a certificate unless the parties are actually known to them or the identity of the parties executing the instruments is satisfactorily proved.” Period.

Not a lot of help.

Anyone?

t/i/a

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/7/08 7:44pm
Msg #246592

Re: NY Notaries, pls: Duh, how to ID someone without photo

In CA, we can use two credible witnesses who have valid picture ID's. If your handbook is silent on credible witnesses, and the SOS personnel isn't definitive, I would use two non-related credible witnesses...such as church lady friends and get their current, picture ID's and signatures for the journal (if you have to have one in NY) .

Church lady friends are usually willing to help. Or, longtime neighbors who know her. If you ever have to account for this you could argue that in lieu of definitive information from your state's handbook and SOS office that you mimicked CA, one of the states with the toughest notary laws.

How can anyone get by with no ID? Did grandma not shop, write a check, see a doctor, use a credit card.......do *something* that required an ID? My grandma (97 yrs old) and mother-in-law (73 yrs old) never drove but have an ID card.

Reply by Rick_NY on 5/7/08 7:50pm
Msg #246593

Re: NY Notaries, pls: Duh, how to ID someone without photo

Thanks for the suggestions, LKT.

> How can anyone get by with no ID? Did grandma not shop, write a check, see a doctor, use
> a credit card.......do *something* that required an ID? My grandma (97 yrs old) and mother-
> in-law (73 yrs old) never drove but have an ID card.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. And bless them both, your 'grams' and m-i-l.

Reply by sue_pa on 5/8/08 7:24am
Msg #246625

WHY IN THE WORLD

would you think transferring CA requirements to NY only on the say so of a cyber space notary is an acceptable suggestion?

I'm going to guess that the majority of states don't allow the funky totally unknown people id requirement (credible witnesses). Other states, like mine, allow a credible witness if the witness & the notary know each other. Many states are silent to this and I'd take that to mean it's unacceptable.

If you can't id her, you refuse. It's not a big deal for you. If it's a big deal for her, someone will take her to get a state id card.

NO ONE SHOULD EVER CONFORM NOTARY LAW FROM OTHER STATES TO SUIT OUR OWN NEEDS

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/8/08 7:30pm
Msg #246801

WHY IN THE WORLD ARE YOU SO SNIDE, SUE?

<<<<Many states are silent to this and I'd take that to mean it's unacceptable.>>>>

And who the hell are YOU? That's your opinion and only your opinion.

<<<<I'm going to guess that the majority of states don't allow the funky totally unknown people id requirement (credible witnesses).>>>>

Totally unknown? The signer and the credible witnesses know each other. What are you babbling about?

<<<<If you can't id her, you refuse.>>>>

He doesn't have to ID her. He has to IDENTIFY her. You don't read too well, Sue. REREAD the NY law again, maybe you'll comprehend it after reading it a 2nd time.

<<<<NO ONE SHOULD EVER CONFORM NOTARY LAW FROM OTHER STATES TO SUIT OUR OWN NEEDS.>>>>

In the absence of a definitive rule, they should mimick a state with stricter laws than NY's.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 5/7/08 8:11pm
Msg #246595

The 3rd paragraph of yours states what you must do.

If you don't know her or she can't prove who she is you (must always refuse). She needs an ID and if I were you I'd wait till she got it.

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/7/08 8:15pm
Msg #246596

But Phillip.....

....what about this....

<<<.....or the identity of the parties executing the instruments is satisfactorily proved...>>>

Reply by Philip Johnson on 5/7/08 8:19pm
Msg #246598

She doesn't have any ID and here are the state of NY's

acknowledgment.


State of New York )
) ss.:
County of . . . . . . . )

On the . . . . . . day of . . . . . . in the year . . . . . . before me, the undersigned, personally appeared . . . . . ., personally known to me or proved to me on the basis of satisfactory evidence to be the individual(s) whose name(s) is (are) subscribed to the within instrument and acknowledged to me that he/she/they executed the same in his/her/their capacity(ies), and that by his/her/their signature(s) on the instrument, the individual(s), or the person upon behalf of which the individual(s) acted, executed the instrument.
(Signature and office of individual taking acknowledgment.)

2. The certificate for a proof of execution by a subscribing witness, within this state, of a conveyance or other instrument made by any person in respect to real property situate in this state, must conform substantially with the following form, the blanks being properly filled:
State of New York )
) ss.:
County of . . . . . . . )

On the . . . . . . day of . . . . . . in the year . . . . . . before me, the undersigned, personally appeared . . . . . ., the subscribing witness to the foregoing instrument, with whom I am personally acquainted, who, being by me duly sworn, did depose and say that he/she/they reside(s) in . . . . . . (if the place of residence is in a city, include the street and street number, if any, thereof); that he/she/they know(s) . . . . . . to be the individual described in and who executed the foregoing instrument; that said subscribing witness was present and saw said . . . . . execute the same; and that said witness at the same time subscribed his/her/their name(s) as a witness thereto.
(Signature and office of individual taking proof).

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/7/08 8:41pm
Msg #246599

Re: She doesn't have any ID and here are the state of NY's

Disclaimer: Capitalization used for emphasis.

You're missing the point. The New York law quoted by Rick doesn't actually say she has to have ID. All it says below is that the IDENTITY must proved SATISFACTORILY. Since an ID has all the info on it, it is the most likely choice to prove someone's IDENTITY.

<<<I have checked the NY Notary Pulic License law and all is says is the notary must always refuse "to execute a certificate unless the parties are actually known to them or the ***identity*** of the parties executing the instruments is satisfactorily proved.” Period.>>>>

Now California handbook does specifically say one needs to be ID'd and they're very specific as to which ID's are acceptable (i.e. gov't issued, passport, military ID, dept. of corrections, credible witnesses).

Since NY laws says IDENTITY proven SATISFACTORILY.....and is not definitive on HOW to ID the signer, it would seem that credible witnesses could be used as credible witnesses are a SATISFACTORY way to prove IDENTITY.

Reply by Rick_NY on 5/7/08 9:09pm
Msg #246600

Re: She doesn't have any ID and here are the state of NY's

Philip, I DO appreciate your input and it is certainly the safe route you suggest.

To paraphrase President Clinton, "It all depends on what your definition of 'satisfactory evidence' is."

I'm not saying LKT is right, but there is nothing in the NY law to say that LKT is wrong, either. I have been advised by DOS before that the notary may use his/her discretion. I'm just wondering what other NPs in New York have done.

I pulled from the public records documents with her signature from previous transactions. We'll see how the sigs match up.

Reply by spnotaryplus on 5/7/08 9:40pm
Msg #246606

Where do you go to pull a signature from public records and

transactions and I'm just guessing but since the documents are public, that it is legal to do this? I've never been in Rick's situation but it is good to be prepared.

Reply by Rick_NY on 5/8/08 5:41am
Msg #246618

Re: Where do you go to pull a signature from public records

Real Estate Transactions in NYC (minus Staten Island!) since c. 1969 have been scanned in and posted here:

http://a836-acris.nyc.gov/Scripts/Coverpage.dll/index

Reply by sue_pa on 5/8/08 7:33am
Msg #246627

Re: She doesn't have any ID and here are the state of NY's

...I'm not saying LKT is right, but there is nothing in the NY law to say that LKT is wrong...

Rick on the witness stand: But your honor, Bertha and Martha from the church stopped baking pies and hobbled right over and told me that she was really Clara.

Judge: Why in the world did you take the word of two complete strangers?

Rick: Because a notary in CA suggested I do it the CA way

Plaintiff's lawyer: Rick, let's see your E&O policy and a list of your assets.

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/8/08 7:37pm
Msg #246803

Re: She doesn't have any ID and here are the state of NY's

I'm not saying LKT is right, but there is nothing in the NY law to say that LKT is wrong...

<<<Rick on the witness stand: But your honor, Bertha and Martha from the church stopped baking pies and hobbled right over and told me that she was really Clara.>>>>

But your honor, Bertha and Martha are long time friends of Clara, they've know each other for many years.

<<<Judge: Why in the world did you take the word of two complete strangers?>>>

Judge: U.S. government will accept the writings in a family bible as evidence of a person with no birth records on file at the county clerk, two longtime friends of Clara are acceptable as proof of her IDENTITY.

<<<<Rick: Because a notary in CA suggested I do it the CA way...>>>>

Rick: Because in the absence of definitive answers in the NY notary handbook and the SOS office personnel couldn't definitively answer my question, I chose to mimick the notary rules of CA as their notary laws are very strict.


<<<<Plaintiff's lawyer: Rick, let's see your E&O policy and a list of your assets.>>>>

Judge: Well Mr. Lawyer, I find in favor of the defendent. Rick acted in a reasonable and conscientious manner in spite of the lack of direction from his own states notary laws. CASE DISMISSED!!! <Gavel slams, courtroom cleared>

Reply by MikeC/NY on 5/8/08 9:25pm
Msg #246819

Point of information, Philip...

Those formats you posted are only required to be used on documents involved in conveying real property - the ack MUST substantially conform to the first one for property located in NY, and MAY substantially conform to it for property located outside NY. It's my take that the latter one allows us to either use another state's format for a second home or investment property located in that state, or attach a NY-compliant loose ack instead (MUST vs. MAY). However, I am not a lawyer, yadda-yadda-yadda, so don't take that last part as gospel - I may be way off base on that one.

Also, the 2nd one you posted is for a subscribing witness, which as you know is not the same as a credible witness. We have to personally know the subscribing witness, and they are not proving the identity of the signer - they are swearing under oath that they a) know the signer, b) witnessed them signing the document, and c) also signed the document at the same time. I don't think it's used that often.

We have no required acknowledgment format for documents that do NOT involve conveying real property, so it's pretty much up to an attorney to determine the wording on those. Something similar to the real property format is usually used, but technically an ack of this type doesn't have to mention that we verified their identity. Our jurats don't require this either. That doesn't mean we won't be held liable for not verifying identity, because we're required to do that anyway; we just don't have to state that fact explicitly.

As far as ID is concerned, NY basically leaves it to the notary's discretion. NY notary license law doesn't mention credible witnesses, so I guess we can use them in a pinch if we feel confident that it provides "satisfactory evidence". Personally, I would never go that route - it's just a little too funky for my taste, and I don't want to be explaining to a judge a year or two later why I thought the word of neighbors Gladys and Ethel constituted sufficient evidence of the signer's identity...

Reply by MikeC/NY on 5/7/08 10:36pm
Msg #246612

Re: NY Notaries, pls: Duh, how to ID someone without photo

We are only required to obtain "satisfactory evidence" that the person appearing before us is who he or she claims to be. You have to be comfortable with whatever ID is being presented; if for some reason you're not comfortable with it, you must decline to notarize.

Here's something you may want to consider - DMV has a list of items it will accept as proof of ID when someone applies for a license or non-driver's ID (http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/idlicense.htm). If this constitutes satisfactory evidence for the department that CREATES the photo ID, you might be able to follow their lead

Reply by Rick_NY on 5/8/08 5:43am
Msg #246619

Re: NY Notaries, pls: Duh, how to ID someone without photo

Hey Mike,

That's quite an excellent idea. I was right to put "Duh" in my headline because I am actually quite familiar with the ID "point system."

Thank you!

Reply by MikeC/NY on 5/8/08 6:30am
Msg #246621

Re: NY Notaries, pls: Duh, how to ID someone without photo

You're welcome. The only quibble I have with that list is that a US passport alone is not enough, but I guess that's because there's no address on it and they want proof of residency.

Reply by Rick_NY on 5/8/08 6:44am
Msg #246622

Re: NY Notaries, pls: Duh, how to ID someone without photo

"The only quibble I have with that list is that a US passport alone is not enough, but I guess that's because there's no address on it and they want proof of residency."

I respectfully disagree. As far as I can tell, after proving date of birth, a US Passport (4 pts) plus a signed SS Card (2 pts) = State ID Card (6 pts). The SS card and d.o.b. document certainly have no address on them. Proof of residence does not seem to be a concern.

I gave up trying to figure out the bureaucracy that is NYS quite some time ago.

Best.