Posted by Joan_OH on 5/27/08 11:09pm
Msg #248951

Regarding Provident

The only reason that they are a pain is because they absolutely require error - free docs. As a consumer, I would be delighted. As a notary, it just takes more time and I always give a speech before I start about "errors; be careful; let me know if you mess up, I'll get a clean copy, etc". I also charge more for the extra time and because quite frankly, I pay for my Professional Liability specifically for them, so I CAN charge more.

Regarding the Jamie/FL issue. Provident issues instructions 1 through 6 on one page.

In short: 1) 8/11 paper, 2) signature must match, 3) no strikeovers, intials or corrections, 4)1003 must be correct and to call if it isn't, 5) POA's must be known & specific & 6) Date must be specific & no date stamps. It's not like they have 24 pages of instructions like that "other" lender.

Their second page of instructions go over the E&O requirements. It specifically states: In areas where independent Document Signing Services are used, it is acceptable if the document signing service employs the notary and supplies PF with the following documentation. (Note: Independent traveling notaries, not affiliated with a signing service, are not acceptable unless they can provide their own E&O Coverage of at least $500,000 per occurance)

I'm not sure how Jaime got assigned this closing - unless Jaime has $500,000 E&O. From what she writes, it appears to me she doesn't carry this amount. I only come to the conclusion because her E&O carrier denied the claim because it wasn't a notary error. Professional Liability would at least acknowledge the claim and investigate.

Dating the docs for the borrower - should have just been passed back for the borrower to date it. I can't tell you how many lenders specifically say "dates must be in the borrower's handwriting". I'm certainly not going to read every lender's instructions to see if I can get away with dating it - I'd just pass it back. If a physical disability exists, such as elderly signers, I just have the other signer date for both because they are part of the transaction - I'm not. My handwriting is not going on those docs where it doesn't belong - period.

My guess is the redraw was caused by a combination of the TIL date and the $500K E&O issue and the docs being sent to Provident rather than title. The $500K E&O issue is not Jamie's fault - the title company should have ensured the person at the table was approved. My guess is the date on the TIL did not, by itself, cause the rate lock to expire. Lately, the Provident's I've done the lender has required to review my insurance before they would even issue the docs to the title company. Some Title Vendors have been fudging it all along (naming us as an employee) and now some Provident offices have been making title prove it. I'll bet with the TIL date in question, they weren't able to fudge it. Since title didn't get the docs back first like they should have, they weren't able to address corrections or resigning the TIL properly, prior to the lender seeing and rejecting the docs.

I haven't done a lot of Provident, but I've done enough to know they require perfection. No disrespect to Sherri, but title should be picking the notary and pre-qualifying them instead of sending it up to an SS.

Joan-OH

Reply by Teresa/FL on 5/28/08 12:03am
Msg #248955

I agree with you Joan

Title should be picking the notary, but there are not many notaries who carry the $500K insurance coverage that Provident requires. That requirement alone forces many TCs to use a SS because most of the larger SSs carry coverage in that amount or more and the nature of their business means that they are covering their subcontractors.

You and I are among the few individual notaries that carry this level of coverage.

Reply by Jack Tri on 5/28/08 1:09am
Msg #248967

Re: I agree with you Joan

Title should be picking the notary, but there are not many notaries who carry the $500K insurance coverage that Provident requires. That requirement alone forces many TCs to use a SS because most of the larger SSs carry coverage in that amount or more and the nature of their business means that they are covering their subcontractors.

Do you see what she is saying ^^ be careful if you get a call from a signing company on Provident doc s the signing company is telling the title co. they have 500k of E&O thats covers their notary....bankserv does this..But most notary s only have 100k E&O so say you have a problem signing co does not care they lay it on you...........so be careful dont get trapped into this.This is a big problem the signing company gets paid big bucks on provident doc they what the money..they wont care what happens to you at all. If you get a provident docs Let them know you only have 100 k of e&o

Reply by Joan Robinson on 5/28/08 5:54am
Msg #248971

Re: I agree with you Joan

In areas where independent Document Signing Services are used, it is acceptable if the document signing service EMPLOYS the notary and supplies PF with the following documentation. (Note: Independent traveling notaries, not affiliated with a signing service, are not acceptable unless they can provide their own E&O Coverage of at least $500,000 per occurance)

The key word here is EMPLOY. Are any of us employed by the SS? No, we are INDEPENDENT. Therefore, a notary should not be used unless they can supply the required E&O. The umbrella that the Title company or SS has is not sufficient for Provident - we must be EMPLOYED by them. That is the main reason these should never go through an SS. Seriously, I had a few last month where Provident wouldn't release docs to title until they reviewed my policy. Not all Provident offices are reviewing it, but if found out later, it does cause a redraw, a $300 penalty to title, and possible rate lock expiration. It would only make sense if they reviewed then issued 100% of the time. It would reduce the fudging by title.

I think that is what really happened in Jamie's case - the different ink just caused them to look and review and what ultimately caused the redraw was the lack of E&O proof. The ink color just started the ball rolling. Once, they didn't like a date on my Mortgage acknowledgement and I was just sent an affidavit to sign saying the date on that document was mm/dd/yyyy - clarifying it.

Joan-OH

Reply by desktopfull on 5/28/08 12:29am
Msg #248962

I was sent to get the docs re-signed for a couple from Idaho while they were on vacation here in Florida and the reason Provident gave for making them re-sign the docs was because they didn't write the date the same way everytime they wrote a date on a page. I believe that is getting a bit carried away with wanting perfection. Then the borrower's called a week later and said that Provident wouldn't fund their loan until I sent them a copy of a 1 million dollar liability and E&O policy. I couldn't understand why Provident didn't just call me with the request instead of having the borrower's call. I got hold of the TC and they covered me under their policy and notified Provident. This company is so ridiculous with their demands, I don't want to do another signing for them.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 5/28/08 5:57am
Msg #248972

Specific to the dating issue ...

The whole situation brought up so many different issues and some very enlightening discussions. I'd just like to touch on the issue of the NSA dating the TIL for the borrower, as I read several comments about those who thought it was an acceptable thing.

As we know, all lenders have their own set of criteria & their own 'hot' buttons. The lenders also have to contend with each investor they sell their loans to, and those specific 'hot' buttons. We tend to view a pkg as a bunch of separate pieces of paper - but to lenders and investors, and to auditors, the pkg as a whole has a 'story', and it gets 'read' as such. As they read it, they look for things that are EITHER wrong, or give the APPEARANCE of something amiss, even if it's NOT wrong.

I think WE tend to get hung up on whether or not something is actually 'wrong' (by our definition), without considering those subtle appearances.

The TIL is part of what is called the "Collateral" pkg - suffice to say, 'Very Important Piece of Paper'. Federally mandated, lots of big consequences if out of compliance - on top of being unmarketable.

Nobody wants to have a loan in their posession (lender, investor) that doesn't pass the whiff test - doesn't MATTER how technically clean it is. If you're reading a loan pkg, and all the dates are in one color but the TIL has a dating that doesn't match - THAT is a red flag, it can smell like a back-dated pkg (one of the ways those get caught), it can smell like someone other than the borrower dated it, which in turn smells like possible fraud. Doesn't MATTER if it really IS fraud, if there was nothing wrong or illegal - it sticks out like a huge sore thumb and nobody wants it.

Some lenders work around the NSA's lack of understanding of all this by pre-dating their own docs, or requiring a date-stamp, some lenders actually send PENS. Please understand - that's their solution to a problem caused by US. Other lenders work around it by being 'strict parents' & getting a reputation for being such - because they're probably selling to an investor that won't accept even the slightest 'whiff'.

I'm hoping this gives a better understanding of WHY things are the way they are. Things that seem 'silly' to us can really matter heavily. Borrowers shouldn't change pens mid-stream, WE should never date something for the borrower, even if you have to go back for a signature or a date, TAKE the same pen with you; look at the pkg as a 'whole story' & with the eagle-eyes of an auditor, from THEIR perspective. Realize that fraud DOES happen & happens a lot - these are the things that raise up the red flags, whether or not it's valid for any particular 'piece of paper'.

Reply by JamieFL on 5/28/08 6:59am
Msg #248975

Wow I can't believe that this issue is still goin on. However I have NEVER done a losing for Provident before this. No I do not carry anywhere near that kind of E&O insurance. Also I am very busy that I cannot always remember what pen I used for what closing (that is in regrads to ReneeK also sometime the pen dies in midstream of signing and you have to change pens) Noone ever told me anything about provident or how they work either. Believe me as soon as I get an assignment where they start to threaten if this is wrong or that is wrong you will be docked your fee I turn it down. That is not to say that I cannot do the job it is just to say that I do not like to start a job where they are already threatening me. JMO

Reply by jba/fl on 5/28/08 7:45am
Msg #248978

"I do not like to start a job where they are already threatening me. "

I hate that too! Send page of "no no's" with their remedy for each no no, and I am so turned off. I know it isn't personal towards me as there are so many newbies all the time, but I still find I take offense to it.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 5/28/08 8:14am
Msg #248980

Something else bothers me

The original poster in her first post about this situation writes that she found that the original mtg and/or deed did record with her as the notary....I would *think* that if, the package was rejected by Provident (based on other NSA experiences with Provident's P & P re: loan docs/NSA requirements) would have had the whole package redrawn and resigned.
That just doesn't make sense to me.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/28/08 8:32am
Msg #248981

Re: Something else bothers me

No, it wasn't the mortgage that had recorded. It was a Quit Claim Deed. That is the document they added witnesses to after the signing.

Reply by NCLisa on 5/28/08 8:08am
Msg #248979

They go beyond requiring perfection!

I won't do closings for them! The last closing I did, they came back and said that the borrowers signature was not "exactly" the same from document to document, therefore the package was unacceptable. I've never seen "exact" signature matches from one doc to the next. Provident then said they were sending the borrower an aff to sign stating it was the same signature, and would I forward them a jurat for the aff. (I've got this all in writing). I refused stating that I would happily go to the borrower (at not additional charge) and have them sign the aff and notarize it, but I was not "notarizing" anything I did not see the borrowers sign. They refused this offer, and at this point and after repeated calls and emails requesting that I do this, I just stopped talking to them.

I don't know what the final outcome was. I personally think that the CEO has a severe case of OCD, and hires only people with severe OCD to work for him. How else would you even notice a slight variation in pen color from one doc to the next.

Just to point something out, I'm sure we all have those borrowers that put the pen down after they sign each and every doc (drives me crazy) they are capable of picking up the wrong/a different pen and signing with that. And then there are the spouses that instead of each using a pen, keep passing a pen back and forth, and only sometimes using their own pen.

Reply by Linda Juenger on 5/28/08 8:44am
Msg #248982

This is the very reason that we only use MY pens

My pens are all the same. I have tons of black and blue and they are the same brand. If borrowers get out their pens, I politely take them away from them and put them somewhere but on the table by them so they can't accidently pick it up. Borrowers love my pens and usually want to keep them. I have given hundreds of them away.

Reply by Les_CO on 5/28/08 9:14am
Msg #248984

Re: This is the very reason that we only use MY pens


I agree. I buy my pens by the box from Quills, I use the same kind, blue and black medium point. I normally use blue pens with a blue ink notary stamp. I carry a black ink notary stamp, and black pens just in case. I always use my pens. I admit that I usually hand the document to the husband first; saying please sign as your name it printed, and date, and then he hands off to the wife. Many times she says honey you forgot to date this, while dating it herself for him. I cringe, but bite my tongue.

Reply by Linda Juenger on 5/28/08 10:02am
Msg #248987

In my experience , it is the MEN who foget to date and

the wife dates for him. 9 out of 10 times it is this way. If I see that this is what they are going to do, I ask that they date their own doc. If its just a couple, then I don't say anything.

Nothing against you guys out there, just my experience.

Reply by Gary_CA on 5/28/08 11:38am
Msg #248997

No offense, in fact...

Yes, it's the men who forget to date things... but without a man's brain you have no experience of the complexities, the subtleties, the raw analytical power... if you did, you would understand what a terrible crime it would be to waste such a resource on something as banal as dating a document.

(Hang on a sec, gotta put my hip waders away)

By the way, I always insist on my pens too... whatever blue stick pen was cheapest last time I was at Staples. (Got a couple boxes in my trunk now from $0.99 closeout)... for the same reasons.

Been thinking lots about this dating stuff... I normally don't date for anyone unless they're really slow (older, arthritic or have a hard time writing) but I know I have dated things so think think think... it goes like this... After we're done I give them that silly 942 question thing from the TC and while they're scratching their heads about where they've lived for 7 years I review the docs. If I see a missing date I fill it in... done, no problem. I think I'll quit doing that now.

I did a PF loan once and remember all the threats about jots and titles... I doubt I'll do it again.

Just me, but if I were in Jamies shoes... I'd eat my fee and tell the MB to stick it in his ear. Getting a commission cut in half sucks but it happens. If he didn't want to play nice, I'd mention the problem of the magically appearing witness and give him a second chance to part ways with no further ado.

Just me.

Reply by Jack Tri on 5/28/08 12:40pm
Msg #249007

Re: No offense, in fact...

One guy was putting 12-25-08 on mine he was thinking of xmas i caught it fast..

Reply by Gary_CA on 5/28/08 2:36pm
Msg #249037

I'm pullin' chains till my arms fall off and no response :( n/m

Reply by Susan Fischer on 5/28/08 6:58pm
Msg #249101

Ok, Gary, here ya go:

"Yes, it's the men who forget to date things... but without a man's brain you have no experience of the complexities, the subtleties, the raw analytical power... "

Like slinking past the kitchen garbage, subtlely averting the eyes so as not to be confronted with that complex quandry: "Gee, it looks pretty full, should *I* take out the garbage? If someone scrunched it down, heck, lots more would fit..."

What to do, what to do...

<big grin>

Reply by Jack Tri on 5/28/08 12:36pm
Msg #249005

Re: This is the very reason that we only use MY pens

Yes..... Pens . com.... for me they are nice

Reply by Deborah Lewellen on 5/28/08 10:44am
Msg #248989

Beneficial Requires Error Free as well

I've done alot of Beneficial and they too are sticklers about mistakes on docs.
On several occasions at their branch offices when a borrower makes a mistake
and trys to cross thru it before I can stop them, they have had to rerun the entire
pkg. to correct one pg. out of the whole pkg. I'd had it happen several times
and asked the branch manager who is a doll, is this just happen to me or does it
happen to your other closers? she said, no it happens all the time, yet at another branch
I'd been doing them at yrs. ago, if there was an error the manager (man) was a total a$$
about it and would be ranting and raving about it flailing his arms and snorting around the office. Needless to say I don't do closings for that particular office anymore, just because of
his attitude. I don't have to work in an enviroment like that what so ever where people walk around an office with an arrogant/hot head for a manager.

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/28/08 11:04am
Msg #248991

Re: Beneficial Requires Error Free as well

Ditto about the a$$...or they would be staring in the window and pacing while I went through the [e-mail address] @$$.

Reply by Ndwa on 5/28/08 1:24pm
Msg #249012

Understanding nature of the business

It's a simple process (print, get 'em sign, notarize). Yet, people fail to understand that we're working and dealing at corporate level services. The amount of money in those loans (transactions) we do each day add up to millions. It's important to know what we're doing and what we are involve in, lots of money at stake when in our ball park. Every single page of a loan package is a legal document. Everyone single one of them worth the face value of the loan. Would you not be upset if someone put a ding on your brand new car?

People take for granted that they are pros after doing this so long. They create their own standard when standard doesn't exist in the signing world. They set standard based on volume of a single client, ignoring everyone else. Everyone wants a confirmation before committing to do a job, but how many of us actually read the details (instruction) instead of glance for the correct fee.

Reply by sue_pa on 5/28/08 2:01pm
Msg #249026

Re: Understanding nature of the business

Exactly. After years and years of doing this job, all I really know is that I know nothing. Every lender, title company and insurance underwriter has their 'MO' - and even that changes due to individual circumstances.

Reply by Sharon Taylor on 5/28/08 4:09pm
Msg #249058

I make everyone use the same pen too

My pen of choice is a Uniball Security pen that comes in both black and blue ink. They run maybe $1 per pen, and they do last. Before I even sit down at the table, I pull out the file folder with documents, my notary seal, and my zippered pencil case. I check the table to see if borrowers have any pens on it. If so, I gently and firmly remove them, and place one of MY pens in front of each borrower, retaining one for myself. I carry at least 12 of these pens at all times - 6 blue, 6 black.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 5/29/08 2:48am
Msg #249154

Re: I make everyone use the same pen too

Are those the ones they advertise as tamper-proof?

Reply by Sharon Taylor on 5/29/08 2:43pm
Msg #249268

Yes, Janet, they are supposedly tamperproof pens

The Uniball pens I use are the security pens that are supposed to be secure against tampering, like trying to remove or erase the ink.