Posted by MichiganAl on 5/28/08 12:58pm
Msg #249009

Signing Agent E & O?

This seems timely considering the discussion from yesterday. I received this e-mail last week from a company selling signing agent E & O. Never heard of it before. Only available in Arizona, Illinois, Missouri, and Michigan for now, but more apparently coming. Some examples of what they say is covered:

Innocent errors or omissions related to signing agent specific notarial acts
Incorrectly dating the Right of Rescission
Missed initials or non-notarized signatures
Improper corrections made to documents (might have covered yesterday's situation)
Failure to complete the signing on time due to the sole negligence of the signing agent
Late return of date-sensitive documents.

It ain't cheap.

$75K per claim/$150K aggregate:
$1000 deductible...........................$220
$75K per claim/$150K aggregate:
$500 deductible.............................$275
$125K per claim/$250K aggregate:
$1000 deductible...........................$366
$125K per claim/$250K aggregate:
$500 deductible.............................$458

So, what you think? Here's there link: http://www.signingagenteando.npuonline.com/

And no, I'm not advertising for them. I don't know anything about them.

Reply by Lee/AR on 5/28/08 1:27pm
Msg #249013

The thing about E&O...

is that, usually in the fine print, there is a clause that allows the ins. co. to decide whether or not to pay or fight. You could be right as rain, but if it's cheaper to pay the claim than fight it thru court, that's what they'll do. It isn't about right & wrong; it's all about the money. (What else is new?)

Reply by Susan Fischer on 5/28/08 1:46pm
Msg #249018

True. And notice they don't post the exclusions.

Not surprised by this, we could see it coming.

Also, "qualified" includes being a member of an association, some training, or 'experience.' Isn't that just about everyone?

Anyone see any mention of subrogation?

I can see claims pouring in for 'innocently' missed courier deadlines for dropping docs...

Reply by MichiganAl on 5/28/08 2:22pm
Msg #249035

Re: The thing about E&O...

I wouldn't care if they paid or fought it (other than the fact that it has a deductible we'd have to pay). I just wouldn't want to be personally liable for a huge hit. But I too would have my doubts about exclusions or how they would interpret something.

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/28/08 1:37pm
Msg #249014

With all the talk about E & O insurance, I pulled out my policy to read it again in detail as I hadn't seen it in awhile. It basically said that I am covered "...arising out of the performance of notarial service for others in the Insured's capacity as a duly commissioned and sworn Notary Public."

It didn't say notarial "act" but "service". The items you listed would fall under notarial "service" as I am not at a borrowers home for any other reason than for notarial services. I am not there in the capacity of a dog groomer, nanny, chef, visiting, having dinner, attending their 5 yr. olds birthday party.....I am there as the Notary only as I don't know those people, except having been contacted as a Notary for my services as a Notary. Even shipping the documents...that would fall under Notary services as I wouldn't even have them in the first place had it not been for being a Notary.

The only exclusions I read in the policy have to do with "dishonest, fraudulent, criminal and malicious acts or omissions".

Reply by Susan Fischer on 5/28/08 1:57pm
Msg #249022

Perhaps. But "...capacity as a duly commissioned and sworn

notary public" could be [and in my opinion is] construed to mean only notarial acts - as defined by each states' laws pertaining to identification, journal/no journal recording requirements, certificate elements, etc.

I would not want to bet that Notary E & O covered anything outside the perameters of notarial acts, because, say, the shipping of documents is not governed under the Notary Commission.

Reply by sue_pa on 5/28/08 1:57pm
Msg #249023

disagree

if you are there ONLY as a notary, you should not touch one other piece of paper in that loan package - including printing it

Reply by Susan Fischer on 5/28/08 2:07pm
Msg #249029

I'm talking about Notary E & O covering notarial acts

vs. covering incidental acts not related to specific notarial acts. Like dropping docs.

Reply by sue_pa on 5/28/08 9:01pm
Msg #249119

Re: I'm talking about Notary E & O covering notarial acts

I was disagreeing with LKT who thinks she is at someone's home for a 'signing' for notary purposes only.

One thing she is correct about is that none of us could ever possibly predict what a judge and/or jury would say but if she thinks her Notary E&O Insurance will cover nonnotarial acts, I believe she's got blinders on or climbing a huge uphill battle at minimum - and that's with her insurance carrier - to say nothing of the underlying law suit.

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/28/08 3:05pm
Msg #249038

Re: disagree

Touching docs in the loan package plus printing is all part of "service".....The TC didn't seek out the dog groomer to witness signatures and describe docs to the borrower.....they sought out the Notary Public. A prudent judge easily sees not only the letter and spirit of the law but will wade through frivolity and nonsense.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 5/28/08 3:55pm
Msg #249051

Anything outside the four corners of the contract (the

E&O policy) unless the contract is deemed invalid for any number of reasons, will guide the judge.

A prudent judge easily sees not only the letter and spirit of the law but will wade through frivolity and nonsense.

Your broad definition of 'service' is not necessarily what a judge would construe as valid. Any more than driving to a signing, and getting in an accident, would qualify as part of that 'service,' and therefore impute your liability for the accident to your E&O carrier.

Insurance contracts have been around for a long time, and are driven by language long parsed out in commerce and the courts. Your limited knowledge of that language and those precepts should alert you to the distinct possibility that you are not qualified to assume a judicial interpretation of 'service' simply because it makes some logical sense to you personally.

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/28/08 4:02pm
Msg #249056

Re: Anything outside the four corners of the contract (the

<<<Your broad definition of 'service' is not necessarily what a judge would construe as valid.>>>

You cannot say what a judge would or would not construe as valid, including my definition of service.

<<<A prudent judge easily sees not only the letter and spirit of the law but will wade through frivolity and nonsense.>>>

That includes your silly post.

Reply by PAW on 5/28/08 2:08pm
Msg #249030

Sorry, but it doesn't work that way according to what I've been told. The -notary- E&O covers things you do as a -notary-. You wear two hats at a signing: notary and signing agent. These two functions are separate and distinct. If you miss a signature on the RTC, for example, I'd bet dollars to donuts that your Notary E&O Insurance carrier would not handle it. Miss swearing in an affiant on a survey affidavit would be covered as that is a notarial duty and function.

But, do as you wish.

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/28/08 3:09pm
Msg #249040

<<<If you miss a signature on the RTC, for example, I'd bet dollars to donuts that your Notary E&O Insurance carrier would not handle it.>>>

Since nothing specific is listed in the coverage and nothing specific is excluded, it is worth further investigation. Overall, if no dishonesty, fraud, criminal or maliciousness is intended by the Notary, I doubt he/she would lose the farm over an error or an omission. Yet, the truth is sometimes stranger than fiction.

Reply by dickb/wi on 5/28/08 3:35pm
Msg #249043

sorry but your notary e & O is specific to notary....

duties only.......paul has got it right...you wear two distinct hats at a signing and you can't comingle them......i had my own insurance agency for 25 years before i sold it so i am not just grasping for strins as you appear to be doing.......do yourself a favor and don't try to bank on your noatary e & o covering your signing agent errors......you will be very dissapointed..my .02

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/28/08 3:52pm
Msg #249049

Re: sorry but your notary e & O is specific to notary....

<<<i had my own insurance agency for 25 years before i sold>>>

You were a broker, had agents sell policies, had a receptionist answer phones.....just grand!! My dad retired from insurance after 50 yrs....yes, that IS grand!

You don't read too well do you? I said it is worth further investigation as the coverage is not specifically listed nor are exclusions specifically listed in my policy. Since you didn't write my policy, nor will the money come from your pocket if I'm sued, you can keep your two cents.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 5/28/08 4:27pm
Msg #249063

There's One Sure Way to Determine...

...the definitive answer to what you're attempting to "sell" here & that's to call an underwriter at the company who's written your Notary E&O. Ask that individual if the "services" you provide which don't involve placing your notary stamp on a document or placing someone under oath will be covered under their policy. I'm not a gambling man (I learned my lesson with Sylvia back in the 2002 Super Bowl) but it's a slam dunk in my humble opinion that the answer you'll receive will be a resounding "NO". I'm currently in the property & casualty business here in Missouri & have been since 1977. While this doesn't necessarily qualify me to speak authoritatively about every other state's laws regarding a Notary E&O Insurance policy, I believe I've enough experience under my belt to challenge your "theory"...as that's all it is.

As usual I'm not dispensing legal or insurance advice with my comments. Check with an insurance producer/agent/underwriter in your own state for the answer which best fits your situation &/or policy. This especially applies to you, LKT.

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/28/08 4:37pm
Msg #249067

Re: There's One Sure Way to Determine...

<<<..the definitive answer to what you're attempting to "sell" here...>>>

Sell? Have no clue what you're talking about...could care less what you do with what you read.

I see you can't read either. Shall I shout it? OK....I CLEARLY said this is worth FURTHER INVESTIGATION......H..E..L..L..O?!?!? Do we not understand what FURTHER INVESTIGATION means? Third time I've had to repeat it. Read, read, read.....this especially applies to you Dennis D Broadbooks.

And lastly, I find it interesting that these companies want Notaries to be covered by E & O insurance with no mention of it being specifically "signing agent E & O insurance" - which supposedly does not cover signing agent errors.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 5/28/08 4:47pm
Msg #249075

Re: There's One Sure Way to Determine...LKT/CA

For someone who consistently babbles about peace love and understanding on this board (and who only showed up 5 months ago), you sure have a bad attitude towards people who clearly have knowledge and experience in a field you apparently don't.
Sometimes it's better to be quiet and have people think you're an idiot than to be loud and have people KNOW it.
Shhhhhhhh. Put your fingers back in your ears going "lalalalalalala"

I am intererested in hearing other's opinions on this subject, unlike SOME people.

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/28/08 5:41pm
Msg #249085

Re: There's One Sure Way to Determine...LKT/CA

<<<For someone who consistently babbles about peace love and understanding on this board....>>>

Don't know what you're talking about.....I've consistently said people can offer views without snide comments and being rude ....have no clue to this "peace, love and understanding"....you pulled that out of your rear

<<<you sure have a bad attitude towards people who clearly have knowledge and experience in a field you apparently don't>>>

Wrong again...people on this board spout off snot nosed comments without comprehending what they read...that includes you...because I don't buy what "they" sell. Therefore, I need to shout it to them in hopes that it will finally sink in.

<<<Sometimes it's better to be quiet and have people think you're an idiot than to be loud and have people KNOW it.>>>

That's true, so I think you should be quiet unless you want it known you're an idiot.

<<<I am intererested in hearing other's opinions on this subject, unlike SOME people.>>>

I've heard and considered others' opinions....that is why I wrote to PAW that this requires FURTHER INVESTIGATION - and since you (and others) don't know what that means as you wrote your stupid, pointless post(s), I'll explain it to you. I WILL call my carrier and since the policy is not specific, I will see what THEY say is covered. Your opinions of what you THINK is not covered, just may be covered by THIS insurer as they have a right to cover what they chose and not what you assume.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 5/28/08 5:53pm
Msg #249087

...people on this board spout off snot nosed comments

And who do you think you really are?
YOU spout off nore snot nosed comments than most anyone here.
And you seem to think you are right, everyone's wrong, and that's the end of it.
Get off your high horse before you fall off.

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/28/08 6:19pm
Msg #249091

Re: ...people on this board spout off snot nosed comments

<<<And who do you think you really are?>>>

Stupid rhetorical question.

<<<YOU spout off nore snot nosed comments than most anyone here.>>>

That's a bunch of baloney. I speak to posters in the manner they speak to me, like when you return something to the store - the tender used to pay is the tender returned.

<<<And you seem to think you are right, everyone's wrong, and that's the end of it.>>>

Wrong, again. While you all are *sure* I'm wrong, I'm not so sure I'm wrong and will "investigate further".

<<<Get off your high horse before you fall off.>>>

Get a life.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 5/28/08 4:53pm
Msg #249076

I've Read All of Your Posts on This Topic...

...in this thread & don't believe I've misinterpreted a word. You're making a concerted attempt to cast doubt on an established interpretation of a type of policy that's been around for years. I don't believe you've a leg to stand on in this discussion. Let me (us) know the results of your conversation with the underwriter of your individual policy. That IS what an investigation is...isn't it? BTW, several years ago (to satisfy my own curiousity) I called my own Notary E&O Insurance company regarding this specific issue & their answer doesn't even closely resemble the theory you're pushing.

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/28/08 5:48pm
Msg #249086

Re: I've Read All of Your Posts on This Topic...

<<<...in this thread & don't believe I've misinterpreted a word.>>>

You have by the following statement: <You're making a concerted attempt to cast doubt on an established interpretation of a type of policy that's been around for years.>

You know what they say about the word assume? I actually quoted from my policy with regards to notarial "service" and just offered what I thought "service" meant. The only person that gave an intelligent response was PAW. The rest were snide and snot nosed.

<<<I don't believe you've a leg to stand on in this discussion.>>>

Not trying to "win" in this discussion.

<<<Let me (us) know the results of your conversation with the underwriter of your individual policy. That IS what an investigation is...isn't it?>>>

Exactly. I'd be happy to let you (all) know what the "notarial services" part of my policy actually means.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 5/28/08 6:17pm
Msg #249090

Your Statement...

..."just may be covered by THIS insurer as they have a right to cover what they chose" is exactly what I mean by saying you "cast doubt". By all means let us know what their underwriter says...investigate till your satisfied.

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/28/08 6:26pm
Msg #249093

Re: Your Statement...

You mean cast doubt on <an established interpretation of a type of policy that's been around for years.>?

You're talking apples and oranges. You and others are making declarative statements of what is NOT there without it specifically saying "it's not there" and I'm suggesting that it just might be there, and you're having problems with the fact that it "could be there". As there are a myriad of loan products, the same is true of insurance.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 5/28/08 6:51pm
Msg #249098

I Beg to Differ...

...but then I know you'll disagree. Just let us know what the underwriter has to say.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 5/28/08 4:44pm
Msg #249071

She's got her fingers in her ears, her eyes closed,

while blathering "lalalalalalala."

I wish her good luck with that.

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/28/08 6:08pm
Msg #249088

Re: She's got her fingers in her ears, her eyes closed,

You think you know it all and you don't and I'll tell you why you don't and not to be so quick to believe you know it all and someone else knows nothing about that which they speak of.

In CA, a Notary is allowed to notarize the signatures on documents written in a foreign language. The Notary still must communicate with the signer (always) but the doc itself can be written in a language the Notary does not read, write or speak (as we are not responsible for the veracity of a doc anyway). While some E & O policies cover this, mine does not. That was a specific question on a form I had to complete when I became a Notary. I left that question blank as it is a permissible thing a CA notary can do. After faxing the application to the agent, 10 seconds later the agent called and said I must agree (in writing) NOT to notarize the signatures on docs written in a foreign language or I could not get the $100k limit, I could get a cheaper limit. I wanted the larger limit as I have a home and other assets to protect. I agreed.

My point in saying that is if my policy is written the way it is (vague) but says "notarial service", that insurer has the right to deem whatever THEY want as "notarial service" and it is a possibility that signing agent actions are covered. That is up to the insurance company to decide. You're not the insurer or the underwriter of my policy so you don't know.

The irony of all of this is that I never said or inferred that any of the "educated" opinions were wrong. That is why I said I would investigate further (which no one comprehended, just wrote snot nosed remarks, like you did here <She's got her fingers in her ears, her eyes closed, while blathering "lalalalalalala.">>> ...You all suggest strongly that "I'm so very wrong" yet none of you are the insurer or underwriter of this policy I hold.

Be careful....people who get so high on their soap box are in for a big fall.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 5/28/08 3:43pm
Msg #249045

Not understanding your position. There are specific

coverages, "**"...arising out of the performance of notarial service for others in the Insured's capacity as a duly commissioned and sworn Notary Public."**

There are specific exclusions: dishonesty, fraud...

Anyone can sue anyone over anything. Prevailing is another story.

If you are sued for being negligent in performing your contractual duties as an NSA, for instance, taking off for a few days and not dropping docs before hand, that has nothing to do with your capacity as a duly commissioned notary public, and therefore would not fall under the coverage of your Notary E & O.

But, feel free to indulge in that belief. I sure don't.

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/28/08 3:57pm
Msg #249053

Re: Not understanding your position. There are specific

<<<If you are sued for being negligent in performing your contractual duties as an NSA, for instance, taking off for a few days and not dropping docs before hand, that has nothing to do with your capacity as a duly commissioned notary public, and therefore would not fall under the coverage of your Notary E & O. But, feel free to indulge in that belief. I sure don't.>>>

I agree with you, your example wouldn't be covered under E & O. Sorry, no where did I write I believed that your example is a covered act.

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/28/08 3:06pm
Msg #249039

**"...arising out of the performance of notarial service for others in the Insured's capacity as a duly commissioned and sworn Notary Public."**

Interesting.

I still don't think it covers anything but notarial acts.

Reply by Becca_FL on 5/28/08 4:10pm
Msg #249059

Here's another company providing the "NSA E&O"

http://signingagent.cnasurety.com/

Reply by Pat/IL on 5/28/08 10:41pm
Msg #249139

Hey Becca,

I got that CNA add just yesterday, during the discussion on here where the subject was brought up. I didn't mention it because the website the flyer referred to looked like a cheap knock off - and so wasn't sure if it was legit. What do you think?

Reply by Becca_FL on 5/29/08 11:49am
Msg #249224

Re: Signing Agent E & O? Pat

I thought the website was cheesy too. There are so many scamers out there just looking to separate us from our money, it's pathetic. Buyer beware!

Reply by Les_CO on 5/29/08 9:03am
Msg #249184

I missed all this thread…but I did some checking into E&O insurance last week. I currently have Notary E&O Insurance for $100K, which I believe worthless on anything other than notarial acts.

However both Travelers and State Farm sell Professional E&O insurance up to $1,000,000.00 that will cover you while wearing your “Signing Agent” hats. Unless you will be doing a lot for Provident, you may not need the higher limits? (How much is your house worth?)

Someone here said if you follow the law you needn’t worry. I don’t know what law states you have to return the signed docs in time to fund, but if you don’t you could be liable. Remember even if you can PROVE you put the package in FedEx ( I like to take mine to Kinko’s, and get a receipt) FedEx only covers the doc’s to $ 100.00, so even if THEY lose the docs, you could be liable for any damage greater than $100.

Insurance is cheap when you need it.