Posted by Roger Proctor Sr on 5/9/08 5:21pm
Msg #246954

re: changing an acknowledgement

I have a question that I hope somebody could clear up for me. I conducted a signing a couple days ago and on the QCD acknowledgement the state was wrong , I don't feel comfortable crossing out the pre-printed state and entering mine so I attached my own ack. Was I wrong for doing this? I am now told that the State of Ca. will not accept my ack because it does not contain the exact wording that a Ca. ack does.......I am not sure of this and if somebody out there could clear this up for me I would appreciate it very much. The majority of my work comes from out of state title companies and this is how I have always handled this problem.

Reply by Gerry_VT on 5/9/08 5:35pm
Msg #246956

You can't use a California acknowledgement (assuming you really are in Illinois, as the automated system figured out). The venue "State of California" is part of the wording required in the California law; if you change it, your certificate no longer matches what the California law requires. Whoever rejected it is an idiot who is violating California law.

If Illinois does not tell you how you have to word the certificate, you could have crossed out the part about the venue being California, and the part about being liable for perjury under California law if the certificate wasn't true. But after you changed it, it wouldn't be a California certificate anymore, ot would be an Illinois certificate (which is just fine).

Maybe we should make the people who record deeds PERSONALLY responsible for the harm done when they don't do their jobs right. Maybe it would weed out the ones with fewer than 10 brain cells.

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/9/08 5:40pm
Msg #246958

<<<Maybe we should make the people who record deeds PERSONALLY responsible for the harm done when they don't do their jobs right. Maybe it would weed out the ones with fewer than 10 brain cells.>>>

LOL!!!
I just got back from taking my son (17 yrs. old) for a job interview when they were never hiring in the first place. All that prep - bought him a new pair of shoes and slacks - getting there on time and they weren't even hiring. I think those folks fall in the category of fewer than 10 brain cells.

Reply by Patricia/VT on 5/9/08 5:38pm
Msg #246957

I was a California notary signing agent for several years before moving to Vermont. It is my understanding in both states that the venue is part of the notarial statement and that it is the notary's responsibility to correct and initial it if it is wrong. Only the notary initials this correction, or any others within the notarial statement.

In my experience, California is very particular about the wording of acknowledgments and jurats that are to be recorded in California.

Reply by Roger Proctor Sr on 5/9/08 5:59pm
Msg #246960

I appreciate your input. You would think that if Ca. is so particular that they would frown upon any corrections that are made by out of state (or in state) notaries on their acks. Oh well I told the title company that if they didn't want to use my ack to send me one of theirs with the correct state then I would have it re-signed and notarized, guess they decided to accept mine after all because I haven't hear back from them.

Reply by MW/VA on 5/9/08 6:28pm
Msg #246963

This is a common issue. It is ok to cross out the incorrect state & print the correct state & initial. The venue, of course, is where the signing is taking place (which state the paper work is from isn't an issue). I've done that hundreds of times, and never heard of any problems.
As far as I know, it is a commonly accepted practice.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 5/9/08 6:34pm
Msg #246964

I have a similar problem - scroll down a couple of messages to the thread called "Question: Using CA notary certificate in VA". According to the escrow company, the San Diego County recorder rejected the DOT I notarized because the notary certificate did not have CA wording.

Reply by BarbaraL_CA on 5/9/08 7:50pm
Msg #246966

When in doubt use your state's all-purpose acknowledgement ... it should be acceptable to California per Civil Code § 1189(b) which states "(b) Any certifi cate of acknowledgment taken in another place shall be sufficient in this state if it is taken in accordance with the laws of the place where the acknowledgment is made."

This is in the California notary Handbook page 43 Civil Code.

Reply by Lee/AR on 5/9/08 7:56pm
Msg #246967

Trump card--it just doesn't get any better than this....

The United States Constitution
Article. IV. - The States
Section 1 - Each State to Honor all others

Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/9/08 8:13pm
Msg #246968

I don't know why you would feel uncomfortable changing the venue.
The notary certificate is the notary's domain.

I always correct the venue when necessary and initial the correction.

Reply by dickb/wi on 5/9/08 8:36pm
Msg #246970

right on target sylvia----the notarial certificate is not...

a part of any document, it is a document unto its' self.....it is the domain of the notary public only....it is a notary's sworn testimony under oath that what is contained in the notary block is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth......when will notaries learn that the venue is where your feet are planted when the signature is notarized......the notary laws in ca apply to california notaries, ie: not wi notaries.......thare is a thing called "universal notary law", which incidently is now undergoing a re write and will no doubt be signed on to by all of the states.......i have to correct notary blocks all of the time ecsp on mortgages where the lender has pre typed the info and it is either incorrect or i can't testify to it...such as "john h. doe and mary a. doe husband and wife as survivorship marital property"....that's how title may read but it is not how id reads and also not how the document was signed....signed as "jhn h. doe---mary a. doe".....sorry all for the rant but being taurus-----

Reply by BarbaraL_CA on 5/9/08 9:16pm
Msg #246980

Maybe the "uncomfortable" feeling comes from CA having added the perjury clause this year: "I certify under PENALTY OF PERJURY under the laws of the State of California that the foregoing paragraph is true and correct."

Since the notary is in a different state than CA, they may question "...under the laws of the State of California".

Just a thought.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/9/08 9:42pm
Msg #246986

I would line through that clause. Although I may be tempted to change "State of California" to "State of Florida"

Reply by John_NorCal on 5/9/08 9:47pm
Msg #246987

I think the simplest thing is to use your own states acknowledgement, assuming you have something similar to our all purpose acknowledgement. I think all the questioning that has arisen is due to some clerk at the escrow/title company refusing to come out of their own comfort zone. If the acknowledgement meets your states requirements, then so be it. It's legal under California law.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 5/10/08 2:26am
Msg #246994

Here's my guess... It appears that there are quite a few CA notaries who haven't yet gotten with the program, i.e. the new wording requirements since the first of the year. [Surprise, surprise...] It could be that the "clerk at the escrow/title company" - or perhaps at the County Recorder's office - is so used to rejecting these with what is now incorrect wording that they didn't pick up on the fact that it was notarized somewhere outside of California. Again, just a guess.

Reply by Roger Proctor Sr on 5/10/08 7:46am
Msg #246999

Wow! Didn't expect such a variety of responses but each of you have gave me valuable information that I appreciate very much. My reluctance comes from being burnt by another signing that I performed. I called the title company from the signing table for instructions about making changes and they told me what they wanted me and the borrower to do but (had them on speaker so borrower could hear the instructions) when they got the docs back they said that they would all have to be re-signed at my expense of course, turns out the contact person denied ever giving me permission to make necessary changes. The point I am trying to make is when their are changes made that shouldn't have been made ultimately the ones who are blamed are the notaries.

Reply by Les_CO on 5/10/08 10:17am
Msg #247011

I agree! As you well know Roger there is much more to this job than point&sign. To do this job properly we as Notary Signing Agents must possess a vast amount of knowledge, covering various State, Federal, in some cases International laws. Governing everything from consumer protection to the color of ink, or the size on the margins allowed in recording. I think you did right by asking Title, but many times the person you speak with doesn’t have a clue.( This includes LO’s!) AND if it’s wrong they ALWAYS blame the Notary. Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying you are a point&sign notary, I personally know some people you’ve worked for and they say you do a great job.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 5/10/08 10:13am
Msg #247010

I wouldn't sign a CA acknowledgment unless I could strike the line about certifying under penalty of perjury, and I imagine that would invalidate it in the eyes of the recorder... so I'd just strike the whole thing and attach a loose NY ack.

If it's rejected because of that, all I would do is point out that the document was signed and notarized in NY in accordance with NY law, so the notarization is valid under both the US Constitution and CA code - I wouldn't waste any time arguing with them about it, and I certainly wouldn't do it over again their way.

I'm curious whether any CA notaries have had problems using their loose acks with the new wording for documents being recorded in other states.

Reply by Therese on 5/10/08 10:42am
Msg #247014

"I'm curious whether any CA notaries have had problems using their loose acks with the new wording for documents being recorded in other states."

I was wondering the same thing Mike. I have done a few out of state purchases/refi and used CA ack. so far so good. I currently have one for Tenn. asked the SS about changing out the Ack they told me since I was in CA to follow my laws here. I questioned it because wording on the DOT Ack was questionable to me.

Reply by Dave_CA on 5/10/08 11:03am
Msg #247017

Re: re: changing an acknowledgment

I've done many signings for out of state property and will usually use their acknowledgment so long as it does not require me to certify capacity or anything else that CA prohibits. I just change the venue as necessary.
If it does contain prohibited language then I attach a CA ack.
I've even had a blue ink "SEE ATTACHED CA COMPLIANT CERTIFICATE" stamp made as so many of the pre-printed forms are not 2008 compliant for CA.
In either case the recording entity must/should accept any certificate that is completed properly according to the laws of the state where the act took place as previously pointed out.

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/10/08 11:30am
Msg #247018

<<<I'm curious whether any CA notaries have had problems using their loose acks with the new wording for documents being recorded in other states.>>>

One time, I did a Time Share signing for Nevada with written instructions NOT to use CA certificates and to complete the NV certificates. Venue was preprinted so I crossed it out, put in the venue where my feet are planted (in CA) and initialed it.

No problems...was paid promptly for the signing.

Reply by CaliNotary on 5/11/08 8:22pm
Msg #247105

"One time, I did a Time Share signing for Nevada with written instructions NOT to use CA certificates and to complete the NV certificates. Venue was preprinted so I crossed it out, put in the venue where my feet are planted (in CA) and initialed it."

Were all the notarizations on documents that were to be recorded? Because those are the only ones that you can use the notarization wording of other states. What they want you to do doesn't trump what CA law requires you to do. If it ain't legal CA wording, they're getting an attached CA certificate whether they like it or not.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 5/10/08 3:37pm
Msg #247024

You bring up a good point. If we accept the provided certificate as it is (with the exception of correcting the venue, if it's pre-filled), that's pretty much a given that it would be accepted (assuming the provided wording is correct for what is required in that state). If we replace it completely with what is acceptable in our own state - where the notarization actually took place - this should also be acceptable. However, when we modify what is provided, the certificate is then neither one nor the other and, therefore, may be rejected.

Keep in mind, though, that just because the wording is different from our own state's doesn't mean it's correct for the state where the document is to be recorded. The docs are often prepared in another state altogether. I do from time to time see notary verbiage on DOTs to be recorded in CA that have incorrect language, (as I imagine you all do, as well) so I figure the same situation could exist in docs for out-of-state properties. Unless I'm sure, I use an all-purpose acknowledgement certificate.

In my opinion, the critical point here is that, when it comes to the notary certificate, the notary IS the one with the ultimate responsibility. If there are issues, the notary needs to be able to TELL the LO or escrow folks what is required, not ASK, unless the issue is which type of notarization to use (i.e. jurat vs acknowledgement). That's why it's so important for each of us to thoroughly know our own state's notary laws.

Having said that, I did have one situation where a document I notarized for an out-of-state recording was rejected. It was for Clark County in Nevada, which apparently required a one-inch margin of white space on all sides. My certificates had a decorative border around the edge, so they rejected it! Go figure...

Reply by MikeC/NY on 5/10/08 4:33pm
Msg #247026

"In my opinion, the critical point here is that, when it comes to the notary certificate, the notary IS the one with the ultimate responsibility. If there are issues, the notary needs to be able to TELL the LO or escrow folks what is required, not ASK, unless the issue is which type of notarization to use (i.e. jurat vs acknowledgement)."

Absolutely. I find it comes up more frequently when an out of state TC is sending docs that will be recorded here. I KNOW what the state requires on conveyance documents, so I'm not going to take direction from them about it. For example, one TC insisted that everything be signed in blue ink; I knew that the county where it would be recorded requires black ink. After trying to explain this to them, I finally said "If I do what you want me to do, I can guarantee that it will be rejected and you'll have to pay me for another trip. " I gave them the county's web site address so they could verify; they called back 5 minutes later and told me to have the mortgage signed in black, with everything else in blue.


"Having said that, I did have one situation where a document I notarized for an out-of-state recording was rejected. It was for Clark County in Nevada, which apparently required a one-inch margin of white space on all sides. My certificates had a decorative border around the edge, so they rejected it! Go figure..."

I had one rejected by a county in FL (I think it was Dade) because the document was all legal paper and the attached cert was letter-sized. Apparently, they want everything the same size. The loose certs have that same decorative border, but when I scanned one to print on legal paper, the border didn't scan - I guess it had something to do with the color of the border when scanning to B&W. Maybe you should try that.

I kept a copy of that scan, and print both legal and letter size certs to carry with me now; if I'm attaching a cert, I just match the document size. I figure anything I can do to avoid a potential problem is a good thing...

Reply by JanetK_CA on 5/11/08 3:21am
Msg #247047

I've always printed my own certs and I do carry copies printed on both sizes of paper. In response to the border issue, I just revised my certs (they're in Word) to have one inch of white space around them. (I print all in black and white.) I don't like how they look nearly as well, so I might go back to the old version and just keep some wide border ones with me at all times...

BTW (just in case), my comments about taking responsiblity weren't directed at you. I think your situtation with the ink color issue is a great example of how it *should* be handled.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 5/11/08 7:10am
Msg #247052

I didn't take your comments about responsibility as directed at me; I agree with you 100% on that topic. The notary should be the "subject matter expert" on his or her state's notary laws, and step up to address problems proactively; it's all part of being a professional.