Posted by bhb/VA on 11/25/08 5:10am
Msg #270548

Am I the only one bothered by this?

Yesterday morning I received a call from a title company who asked me to do a signing last evening (1st one in 2 months that offered a decent fee!). Docs came an hour later instead of last minute. (Yes!) I contacted borrower who asked to move signing up an hour because of impending bad weather (Everything is going sooo well!).

Upon arrival at the signing the borrower is looking over the Settlement Statement, Note & payment info and realizes that the loan officer has prepared the paperwork at a much higher interest rate than agreed to. Borrower calls loan officer who tried to talk her into signing papers anyway. His attempts:
1) You didn't sign a paper locking in that rate so it went up.
2) But look at the money you are getting back when you refinance. You can pay off your bills!
3) Well, go ahead and sign and in a few months, we'll lower your interest rate after you have made a few payments.
4) If you don't sign now, the appraisal of your house will go down and you won't be able to get a loan.
And on top of it all, it was a higher interest rate & monthly payment than the current loan she had. (Yet he was trying to convince her to sign the papers anyway!)

Needless to say, borrower was upset because money had been spent up front for appraisal & some origination fees. I saw the papers that had been sent to her by this loan officer and it was definitely a much lower rate, etc.

I KNOW IT IS NOT BY JOB - to know any of this - just go in and get the papers signed and get back out. But I was outraged when I left last evening. This was a hardworking couple, raising kids, paying their bills, getting by and if they had signed these papers they would have been screwed over by the loan officer just so he could close a loan this month.

I was ashamed to be associated with it. It was just morally wrong. And I'm sure it happens somewhere every day. We hear all the time about mortgage fraud and we see the results of the greed in what has happened in the housing/mortgage/banking industry. What has changed? Wasn't this "lender fraud?"

Am I the only one who feels this way? How do you handle it?

Reply by Julie/MI on 11/25/08 6:02am
Msg #270551

Bottom line is that the borrowers can always have a professional review the documents during recission. It's called personal responsibility.

LO's are salespeople and people will say anything to make $$$$, it's up to the consumer to use their noggin.....borrower called the LO and they signed freely without getting any of his statements in writing, so you didn't force them to sign.

Reply by FLdocrunner on 11/25/08 6:03am
Msg #270552

I have seen MUCH worse. As you have already stated, it's not our job to form an opinion on the loan details. I leave that to the B/O's and L/O's. I check ID, present the docs, collect signatures, and return docs. I inform the B/O's from the very beginning what my role is so there is no confusion. When the numbers are not right, my borrowers know that is where we pause so they can call their L/O.

Reply by LindaP/OH on 11/25/08 7:15am
Msg #270553

I, too, am disturbed witnessing this type of situation; some of the LOs are silver tongued devils. HOWEVER, several years ago I was in a closing with a LO and his customer; the terms he was agreeing to were, in my opinion, atrocious. But the bo told me how happy he was with his LO for getting him this loan; it seems he was in foreclosure on his original loan and had tried several different companies who could do nothing to help him. I have learned not be so quick to judge; many times people are in places we know nothing about Just maybe that bad loan we see will actually help them out, we just don't know the whole picture. The only thing we can do is conduct our selves professionally and not judge or offer opinions. I believe there are still many good LOs out there who earnestly try to help people, who actually provide a service in good conscience; those are the ones who will still be standing at the end of this sunami.

Reply by JandB on 11/25/08 8:03am
Msg #270558

if they had signed these papers they would have been screwed over by the loan officer just so he could close a loan this month.

It sounds as though they did not go ahead with the loan. If not the LO will revamp and they will go at it again next month. I hope that is what happened. What do I do? I remind them of my purpose and that I am not in any way attached to the LO or the lender. After they speak to the LO I allow them a few minutes to kick it around and then I ask if we are going ahead or not. If not, I leave as gracefully and quickly as possible. I do not participate in their discussion or offer my opinion. It's sometimes difficult but that is what I am contracted to do.

Reply by MonicaFL on 11/25/08 8:09am
Msg #270559

Funny you bring this up - I was called by my mortgage company Friday and after all was said and done, I told the L/O I would think about it. Well, he called me yesterday and wanted to know how I felt about "the deal". I told him I was not comfortable with discount points at 4.25, my interest rate going down only a quarter of a point, and some other things. he then proceeded to tell me "well, look at it this way, you are saving $300 a month". I told him that $300 a month was 1. not worth the $8,000 in closing costs, 2. the quarter of a point reduction in interest was not enough and 3. I was not happy with the whole thing. He then began to argue with me and I hung up on him. He immediately called me back and asked me if I disconnected with him and I said yes because he was not letting me get a word in edgewise and he said well I thought we were just having a conversation - I told him it was a one sided conversation - him doing all the talking - and if I could get a word in I would talk to him - he finally said okay and then I told him I am not interested, I am going to hang up and don't call me back! He started to say something, and I hung up! just venting but these people make me sick.

Reply by dickb/wi on 11/26/08 6:15pm
Msg #270679

you should be able to buy the rate down for.....

1% for each quarter of a point in reduction on a 30 year loan......

Reply by MW/VA on 11/25/08 8:25am
Msg #270563

Yes, I have a conscience & these things bother me. There are lots of sales tactics at work, including "bait & switch". I can't, of course, make any comments regarding the loan rates, terms, etc. We wouldn't be in business at all if the lenders thought we were out here blowing their loans (they sometimes accuse of that anyway). If there are issues with the numbers we stop (usually right at the HUD) and call the LO. That is what the recission period is for. It is difficult to grasp that this is going on after all the fallout in the mortgage industry.
What's sad is that often times people are under such financial pressure they will go ahead with a bad deal. I think we've all seem some awful stuff. I know don't how some of the brokers/lo's sleep at night.

Reply by 101livescan on 11/25/08 8:40am
Msg #270565

Bottom line, this is why there is a huge movement to get rid of mortgage brokers. They lie, lie, lie, lie and keep on lieing. Sometimes they get lucky and people go for it. It's terribly embarrassing for the notary public to have to sit there and be part of the act.

Reply by jojo_MN on 11/25/08 8:45pm
Msg #270614

If it weren't for mortgage brokers, you would not be in the

business of being a notary signing agent. I don't know about your part of the country, but in this area, all of the local banks and lenders close their own loans. I've been in business full time since 2004. 99% of it has been as a result of brokers selling loans and the title companies (and signing services) hiring me to closie them.

Yes, there are many very greedy brokers, many of them that I cringed whenever I did their closings; however, most of them closed down in the last couple years. If you want to stay in business, I wouldn't "bite the hand that feeds me."

JMHO

Reply by sue_pa on 11/25/08 9:35am
Msg #270573

as everyone else said, not our business. There probably is not one business that exists where you have the 'good' and the 'bad'. It's up to the consumer to find the 'good' for their own situation.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 11/25/08 10:33am
Msg #270581

How we handle it ...

We come on here and b ... b ... vent.

I am not the world's humane society, and you can NOT save people from their own worst enemy, and we all know who that is.

Reply by MW/VA on 11/25/08 1:05pm
Msg #270596

Re: How we handle it ...

Remembering a quotation, "The only thing it takes for evil to exist is for good men to do nothing". I think that is apropos to things in the financial world. We are where we are because morality & ethics are out the window. Greed is the order of the day.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 11/25/08 2:00pm
Msg #270601

I sure don't disagree with you on this ...

but I have to qualify that - I believe Good needs to be where Good is most lacking, and surely it has been lacking in the financial world to a great extent. I've grapled with the morals & ethics long and hard (*having worked in sub-prime, years ago), and what I just said about where Good needs to be is WHY I worked there so long...

Still, I know what I can do and what I can not do. I can't save anyone from themself. I CAN make sure they have a very clear & concise understanding of what it is I might WISH I could 'save' them from, but it is never my choice to make nor my judgement to call.

Reply by Ernest__CT on 11/25/08 8:01pm
Msg #270611

We have no LEGAL choice.

We must not let our moral judgements interfere with what we are legally bound to do and not do.

Yes, it was very sleazy of the Loan Officer. Yes, the borrowers had been screwed.

It is our place to properly identify signers, point out printed facts, answer questions that the law allows us to answer, and not offer opinions. Officially, legally, we must be disinterested. Yes, it's difficult. Yes, it disturbs those of us who see people being taken advantage of. A lot of us have literally been in tears after our cars pulled away from the homes of borrowers that we knew were going to lose their home eventually, if not sooner, because of a Loan Officer wanting to get a commission and not caring about the borrower.

Reply by bhb/VA on 11/25/08 9:16pm
Msg #270615

I appreciate all of your replies. And I do understand what my job is...and isn't. And I do it well. (I think.) And I understand where all of you are coming from but as an interesting analogy:

Suppose I agree to drive my boss to the bank and back not knowing that he plans to rob it. He robs it, and I drive him away (get-away car) because I agreed to drive him. I may not have robbed the bank but sometime during the robbery process I realized that a robbery is taking place. Am I not guilty (by association if nothing else) if I drive him away from the robbery?

And that's how I feel after a deal like last evening.....like I'm driving the get-away car.

The good thing is that there are plenty of signings out there that are legitimate - that do help the borrower - and loan officers who are honest and try to do a good job. And I enjoy those signings!

I'm guessing the borrowers did get their loan closed. The Title Co called me today to do the signing this evening, but I was not available. I hope it all worked out well for them - they are good people.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 11/26/08 3:14am
Msg #270623

The missing part to your analogy ...

is where you can find your peace of mind - it's the part where you, the 'get-away' driver, get out of the car and go into the bank with the bank robber. You walk up to the bank teller and you say "Here is a man. Right here (point to man's pocket) is the gun. Over here (point to robber's hand) is a note saying to give him all your money. He's going to stand here for a few days, and then he's going to give you the Note and point the gun at you. Now, you have the right to call the police - did you want to call them now? Of course, if you decide not to call the police, you'll still be able to do that over the next couple of days while he's standing here."

Reply by jba/fl on 11/26/08 7:09am
Msg #270625

Re: The missing part to your analogy ...

At that point there is only intent, there is no action that has broken the law.

I have an appt. to go to the dentist. I have intent. I break and reschedule my appt. I still have intent. At the last minute, I repeat the last procedure. I still have intent. I finally go, now I have taken action. Until then, if this were an illegal action, I have done nothing wrong. The police only care if action has been taken, prior to that there is no evidence, etc.

Also, she was the getaway driver in this instance, and upon my reading, she was unaware that she was the driver aiding and abetting. Once she became aware of this though, she could have 1. gotten out of the car, leaving him to do his own driving, 2. driven to the police station 3. left without him. I am sure there are other options too that I may have missed.

As for whether they are "good people", even 'good people' make unwise decisions during their lifetimes. How you can determine this during the short time you are there is beyond me - truths have a way of hiding behind lies...

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 11/26/08 8:36am
Msg #270629

and that's the problem with analogies =)

What I mean is - as long as a signing agent is clearly & concisely disclosing all the terms, and has at least some reasonable sense that the borrower comprehends the terms, and assuming there is nothing illegal going on - then the signing agent might find solice in knowing they did all they can do, legally and morally. I can't say there is 'no reason' to feel quilty, since feelings can't be quantified or judged - only actions can. You can not make choices for others, nor can you take away a choice that is their's to make - legally or morally.

Not sure what you mean about the 'good people' comment - in my prior post, when I said "Good needs to be where good is not", I meant (and said) inside the industry. I wasn't and am not about to judge borrowers.

Reply by jba/fl on 11/26/08 11:07am
Msg #270649

Re: and that's the problem with analogies =)

Renee: the good people comment came from bhb/Va's post. I was kind of responding to both posts at the same time.: the analogy was yours, good people was bhb/VA's.

I'm like Sue/Pa in that it is their business, and we don't know a bit about these people and their situations. Everyone has their 'good face' that is presented to us, until payments are due (LOL).

It is a quandry - I have also suffered along with the borrowers when I see a bad deal, sometimes wishing they would just tell me to get out so that they can save themselves, but even they know whether they are backed into a corner, which they probably won't or don't want to disclose to me. Just like being on an airplane: so much easier to talk to someone you will never cross paths with again than a friend or neighbor. Since many of these people are neighbor's, so to speak, their public faces are in place, so we don't know if they are a Ted Bundy, for example.

Reply by Pat/IL on 11/25/08 11:22pm
Msg #270621

One thing I don't get.

"1) You didn't sign a paper locking in that rate so it went up."

Fixed rates have been trending downwards. If any have risen, I saw one source that showed a very slight uptick in adjustables. Seems to me that floating would have been a good thing.