Posted by IL/notary on 11/20/08 9:03pm
Msg #270173

What would you do???

I had a purchase closing today where both borrowers and sellers attorneys were present. Borrowers attorney went over the HUD and picked apart every charge including mine stating it was too high and requested a break down of my fee in front of everyone. I said it’s what the title company offered to pay for this closing which I accepted, then added… it includes document printing and extended travel which was 2 ½ hours round trip.

There are several things that go into figuring my fees to include the cost of business (training, E&O insurance, membership dues, marketing fees, website, business cards, supplies, cell phone, high speed internet, etc…) as well as document printing and travel time & expenses. I don’t think it’s professional to go over this at the closing table with everyone present as most companies do not want you to discuss your fees. How much do you disclose about how you charge your fees when asked? It was a very uncomfortable moment as I've never discussed my fees with anyone before. How would some of you handled this? TIA

Reply by Philip Johnson on 11/20/08 9:08pm
Msg #270176

I would have said that this was a negotiated fee

between you and the TC and have him direct his questions to the TC.

Reply by Becca_FL on 11/20/08 9:29pm
Msg #270184

Re: I would have broken down my fee as followed...

$50 Print, courier and QC fee
$50 extended travel fee
$100 closing fee buyers side
$50 closing fee sellers side
$50 fee to attend a closing where both buyers and sellers attys are present. Call it a PITA fee.

Then I would ask the atty to justify his $200 an hour fee to review docs and let him know that if he was concerned about closing fees, he could have saved his client $300 by just conducting the closing himself. But no, our job is so beneath the job of an atty.

Notary time involved in transaction - 5-6 hours = $55 per hour
Atty time involved in 'actual' closing transaction - 1-2 hours @ $200 per hour

If I were a client looking to cut the fat.....

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 11/21/08 1:43am
Msg #270202

Well said Becca...

What business does an overpriced attorney have nitpicking the paltry notary fees?

If it were me... I'd probably not be able to keep my mouth shut and I'd say, "Well sir, if you insist on me discussing the breakdown of my fees, then it's only fair that you do as well."

And in my mind I'm reminded of WOPR saying, "Shall we play a game?"

Reply by sue_pa on 11/20/08 9:11pm
Msg #270178

...I don’t think it’s professional to go over this at the closing table with everyone present as most companies do not want you to discuss your fees...

If you're doing a purchase and there are questions, when do you think they should ask questions, if not at the table? Next week? Someone at that table was paying your fee and if they want to know what they're paying for they have a right to know. Of course, why they're to the point of sitting at the table and don't know every number inside and out is beyond me (not in your situation specifically but the numerous times we all see this).

That said, experience speaking, you should have found out if the title company faxed the settlement sheet to everyone ahead of time. If not, you should do it yourself. Not your job but it eliminates your very situation.

That part being said, your response to the lawyer when he 'picked' on the first number should have been instructing him to call the title company and/or loan originator if he had questions on how the fees were generated.

Reply by IL/notary on 11/20/08 10:26pm
Msg #270192

Of course I understand their right to know my fee and the closing is the time to ask questions but I was not prepared to break it down and explain what specifics are associated with my fee.

The HUD was emailed to me the same time it was sent to borrowers attorney. I did fax the HUD to the real estate office the closing was held for the sellers to have when they arrived to look it over with their attorney (HUD arrived less than 10 minutes before I had to leave for the hour + drive).

This closing took nearly 3 hours and at least a half dozen calls were made to the title company at the borrowers attorneys request regarding fees etc... it seems me I earned my fee but not according to the borrowers attorney.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 11/20/08 9:14pm
Msg #270179

It was completely unprofessional. Did they call the appraiser and ask for a breakdown?
Did they call the inspector and ask for a breakdown? Did they ask the realtor for a breakdown?
H3LL no, he didn't.
I would have told the that my fees were inclusive of travel, printing, notasrizations and time. I'd have calmly told the bastid for further breakdown he would need to discuss fees with the hiring party and pull out my cell phone and offer to call.
He would have shut up for a minute, long enough for me to politely excuse myself and notify the hiring party of the shenanigans/possible deal-breaking behavior of the small-membered attorney at the closing table.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/20/08 9:29pm
Msg #270185

Who wouldn't want to look the attorney dead in the eye

and request an immediate breakdown of HIS fee??...certainly wouldn't be an more unprofessional than the way this guy treated you...MHO

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 11/20/08 10:22pm
Msg #270191

I actually did that the other week ...


The BO's had an attorney sit in to make sure that they did not get "screwed" as it was put to me. The attorney spent a total of an hour on the phone with the LO asking some of the most asinine questions.
I was not in a good mood anyway when the attorney challenged me on perhaps my fee was too high and wanted details on the breakdown. I referred him to the title company they agreed to my fee as listed on my website. "Well, that's not good enough, I need more." " OK, then lets go over how you determine your fees for this transaction first, as I bet you are being paid a lot more than I am for this transaction to do something that should have been done by you several days ago before the loan got this far" I said.

He got quite and we finished the transaction.

Don't take any garbage from these attorneys as they should have been called to help the borrower long before the loan got to the closing stage, and you don't have to justify your fees to anyone once they have been agreed to by the entity hiring you.

Reply by SpinClose/MI on 11/20/08 10:36pm
Msg #270193

Re: Attorney at closings always...

try and show they are earning their money. Several times I've watched as they pick apare AKA affidavits, and various other non essentional docs. All the while talking about their vacations and completely slowing down the closing in order to increase their fee.

Reply by IL/notary on 11/20/08 11:21pm
Msg #270194

Re: Attorney at closings always...

"All the while talking about their vacations and completely slowing down the closing in order to increase their fee"

That actually crossed my mind. No one could believe we were still at closing 3 hours later (RE agent, title company) and the sellers attorney had to reschedule his 3 o’clock, then his 4 o’clock. It seemed borrowers attorney was deliberately picking everything apart so to keep us all there so he could charge his client for an entire afternoon. I was thinking business must be slow for him because he obviously had no other appointments for the day.

Reply by Hugh Nations Signing Agents of Austin on 11/20/08 11:58pm
Msg #270196

Re: Attorney at closings always...

***Attorney[s] at closings always try and show they are earning their money.***

Attorneys make their living by being smarter than other attorneys. And even if they aren't, they have to persuade their clients they are. Otherwise, there is no reason for anyone to hire them.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 11/21/08 10:51am
Msg #270219

Re: Attorney at closings always...

Your name certainly came to mind when I read this post.

Reply by ItsMe123 on 11/21/08 9:34am
Msg #270212

Bigger question -- Is his fee legal?

First I would have asserted my independent contractor staus. I then would have talked about all fees in a real estate closing being on the HUD prior to the closing for their review and the role of the title company drawing the HUD. I then would have raised the ante, if any of the fees are not acceptable at this time, then noone is required toi sign. I am an indeopendent contractor and I have no interest in the successful closing of this transaction --- that simple.

I also would have had to make some sort of comment when building my poition that ANY exchange of dollars or anything of value outside of the closing, regardless of reason (borrower paying said lawyer's legal fees), are a slam dunk violation of the TILA. Thus all can reassured because of FEDARAL law that noone will be paying nor is obligated to pay any fees/costs secondary to the transaction which are not included on the HUD no matter who tries to bill them. Shut his ass up good!

Reply by Lee/AR on 11/21/08 7:28am
Msg #270207

Sue & Hugh....oh, this wasn't a multiple choice test? n/m

Reply by Ernest__CT on 11/21/08 4:55pm
Msg #270280

"I'm sorry, that is not open to discussion." n/m