Posted by Kimberly Cabuhat on 10/13/08 8:55pm
Msg #267210

Credible Witness

I have never used a Credible Witness form. I'm not sure how to use it. I have a notary tomorrow where the father and mother have written a statement and the son-in-law typed it up for them. I don't think that it calls for this type of form. I believe it calls for a Jurat form. Can anyone help?
Thanks

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/13/08 9:10pm
Msg #267212

Credible Witnesses and Jurats are two different things. It's not up to you to decide what type of notarial certificate you should be using. It's up to the signers to tell YOU whether they want a jurat or an acknowledgement. You can explain the two types of certificates to them and let them choose but you cannot decide.

Now then, as for Credible Witnesses....you really need to go read your handbook since it's very obvious you don't know what this is. Who told you to use a "Credible Witness form"?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/13/08 9:12pm
Msg #267213

Sorry, posted too soon....

In all honesty, I think you should go re-study your handbook before you take on any notary assignments. In the meantime, refer your signers here to find a California notary. And I don't mean to hurt your feelings, but you should know these basic things before you take on any assignments...MHO

Reply by Kimberly Cabuhat on 10/13/08 9:37pm
Msg #267215

No one told me to use this. I did research and I do not use this form. I will let the signers choose what forms they want to use. The document they want me to sign just confused me and when I was talking to her she referred to the credible witness form. So. I went back and took a look at my notes and I now know what to do.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/14/08 12:39pm
Msg #267254

Kimberly, I think the thing that is most disconcerting is that you said she mentioned a credible witness form. There really is no such form or wording (credible witnesses are a form of ID), and as a CA notary, you should know that off the top of your head and be able to ask the person better questions so that you're not confused.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/14/08 1:23pm
Msg #267268

I think what bothered me most about that statement

is if, in fact, the signer DID mention it - she's been there/done that before...and done nothing to rectify the situation that gave rise to the need for a CW.....???fraud?? maybe....MHO

Reply by dickb/wi on 10/14/08 3:25pm
Msg #267299

linda...this is where i disagree with a lot of the posters..

on not rot.....................................

It's not up to you to decide what type of notarial certificate you should be using. It's up to the signers to tell YOU whether they want a jurat or an acknowledgement

it i sreally up to the document maker whether there is a jurat or ack on a document...not up to the affiant, unless the affiant is the document maker......jmho

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/14/08 3:35pm
Msg #267301

Actually, it's up to the document receiver....

The document maker may not have any idea, either... the type of wording is up to the document requester or receiver who requires the notarization.

Reply by dickb/wi on 10/14/08 5:21pm
Msg #267317

maybe a better choice of word would be......

document requester [who is usually the document drafter/maker] instead of document maker....the document receiver unnder normal conditions does NOT decide which type of notary block is used......ie: if i want some one to give me an affidavit of a scenario i will determine whether it's an ack or a jurat, not the receiver.....

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/14/08 5:26pm
Msg #267319

I can go several ways...

You're correct, though.

But in some cases, like a County Clerk...they determine if a form is correct or not. They aren't really a "requester" either. They simply receive documents for filing.

It all depends on the situation, I guess.

Reply by dickb/wi on 10/14/08 5:39pm
Msg #267324

marion...fortunately in wi that is not as problem......

as long as there is a notary block filled in they would record a wet blanket...oh almost forgot...should be in BLACK ink......

Reply by dickb/wi on 10/14/08 5:54pm
Msg #267326

SORRY..marion=marian.....as=a.............. n/m

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/14/08 6:31pm
Msg #267333

HeeHee. No problem. Yeah different states

have so many different ways of doing things. I'm just so used to the narrow, rigid California standards.

Actually, in many ways I appreciate what CA has been doing by requiring educations and doing more in-depth backgrounds checks and by having very specific wording.

I'm usually not into over managing these kinds of things...but I figure if as a notary I can be held liable for something, then I appreciate having rigid standards to work with. That way I can always defer to a legal source or rule or something.

It's still amazing to me that some people (at least in CA) still manages to mess it all up.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/14/08 5:30pm
Msg #267322

Re: linda...this is where i disagree with a lot of the posters..

True, Dick...but my point being it's not up to the notary to decide - it's up to the signers to find out, however they find out and from wherever they find out, what type of certificate goes on their. That was my point - and the fact that CW has nothing to do with it.

Reply by dickb/wi on 10/14/08 5:37pm
Msg #267323

from that perspective you are correct.... n/m

Reply by PAW on 10/14/08 6:56pm
Msg #267335

In FL, the signer dictates what certificate is needed.

>>> <<<

The following is from the Florida Governor's Reference Manual for Notaries, page 12:

"If the document you are asked to notarize contains a prepared notarial certificate, look for the key words “acknowledged” or “sworn to” to tell you which notarial act is required. If there is no notarial certificate on the document, the signer must direct you whether he or she wants to make an acknowledgment or take an oath. Unless you are an attorney, you are not authorized to advise a person which notarial act is appropriate for the document presented for notarization, and you may not advise the person about the contents of the document."

In reality, if the signer can't make a determination, then the documents recipient or author, in that order (as suggested by a former FL Secretary of State) would need to be consulted.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/13/08 11:28pm
Msg #267219

I agree with Linda in that you may need to study up a little bit more before taking on more assignments. It's not at all meant to be mean to you. A lot of us know that there just isn't enough notary education out there and a lot of notaries are making serious mistakes.

My first question is why do you think you need a credible witness for this situation? People type up statements all the same. It doesn't matter who prepared it (so long as it wasn't you) -- it matters who signs it.

If the statement is from the parents and will be signed by the parents, then there is no credible witness issue unless you have trouble certifying their signatures because on of them does not have proper ID. Credible witnesses have to do with certifying signatures and identities. It has nothing to do with the document itself (not really). As a general rule, credible witnesses do NOT sign the document itself. They do sign the journal. All they're doing is certifying the identity of the signer. There really is no special form or wording for credible witnesses. That is NOT to be confused with the wording for a subscribing witness. That's a whole different pile of rocks.

Next, you CANNOT, under any circumstances tell the signers which form of wording to use. The signers and/or the document receive must determine that. You can explain the difference, but that's it. The problem is that I'm not entirely sure you actually know the difference. By suggesting or determining which form to use, you are venturing into the Unauthorized Practice of Law (UPL) and it is grounds for the possible suspension and revocation of your commission. See pages 8 & 33 of the current CA handbook for this.

Specifically this part:

"California notaries public are prohibited from performing any duties that may be construed
as the unlawful practice of law. Among the acts which constitute the practice of law are the
preparation, drafting, or selection or determination of the kind of any legal document, or
giving advice in relation to any legal documents or matters. If asked to perform such tasks, a
California notary public should decline and refer the requester to an attorney."


The reason for this is because many notarized documents are legal or sensitive in nature and if you choose the wrong wording you can (and most likely will) be held liable to any damages that might come about as a result of a botched form. This is especially true of any document that could end up in court. By determining the wording to be used, you are preparing or drafting part of that document... and that's unlawful practice of the law.

Like it says in the handbook, "Key wording of a jurat is 'subscribed and sworn to (or affirmed) before me.'" When you see those words, you use jurat wording and make sure the signer swears and affirms. If the wording is not pre-printed on the form, you can write it yourself, stamp it or use a loose form.

Reply by LKT/CA on 10/14/08 2:38am
Msg #267222

Kimberly, are you in Southern California? If so, please email me at [e-mail address]. I know of a great workshop that will give you hands on experience notarizing signatures on all types of docs so that you'll have the knowledge and confidence needed to accept general notary work.