Posted by Ronda Roaring on 10/24/08 3:47pm
Msg #268115

Effective immediately

Except for certain customers, all signings must be paid for immediately after the closing. The HUD will be faxed back with an invoice that must be paid either directly or through PayPal. Documents will not be released until payment is received. The fee is not refundable. I accept VISA, MasterCard, Discover, and American Express.

In light of the closing of Archer Land Title (as well as those that have closed before it), I feel this step is totally justifiable and recommend every SA do the same.

Ronda Roaring

Reply by Calnotary on 10/24/08 3:51pm
Msg #268116

"Documents will not be released until payment is received"


I would not do that, but I double check every call I get. I don't work for every body even if the payment is within my fees.

Reply by Roger_OH on 10/24/08 4:01pm
Msg #268119

WRONG!! You cannot hold the documents hostage...

until you receive payment. Do not put the borrowers loan at risk just because you have a payment issue with a TC or SS; the borrowers have nothing to do with your payment arrangement!

If they lose their rate lock or the loan doesn't fund because YOU didn't get the package back in time, you will be looking at some serious legal exposure; and it will likely be considered negligence by any E&O carrier.

Reply by JulieD/KS on 10/24/08 8:07pm
Msg #268138

Re: WRONG!! You cannot hold the documents hostage...

I don't think you'll be in business for very long. You very well may be sued. The documents are not yours to hold.

Better to only deal with companies you know and trust than to risk your entire business.
Don't hold the docs hostage.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/24/08 4:08pm
Msg #268120

I don't think you can do that, Ronda.

Those funds are disbursed at official closing, and that can't take place until they get the papers back. That's part of the agreement you take the job. Unless, for some reason you manage to get them to pre-pay you before you leave for the job.

Holding the docs hostage will probably be putting yourself in some serious legal liability should the loan not close because of your actions. I know if I were the borrower, and my loan fell through because of that... I'd not hesitate to sue.

Reply by CaliNotary on 10/24/08 4:16pm
Msg #268121

Yikes

Please be sure to post the results on here the first few times you pull this idiotic stunt. I only wish I could be a fly on the wall of that phone conversation.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 10/24/08 4:52pm
Msg #268126

Well, this will definitely resolve any collection problems you might have, because there will be zero work coming your way under those terms. Can't have a collection problem if there's nothing to collect...

Even assuming you could find someone desperate enough to hire after being told about this policy, holding the completed documents for ransom is a really BAD idea. As others have pointed out, you're inviting all sorts of legal problems.

Reply by Lee/AR on 10/24/08 7:14pm
Msg #268134

Have to admit the lady has a point...

Don't know if it's a wise thing to commit business-suicide over, but, that's her call.

Reply by Becca_FL on 10/24/08 8:14pm
Msg #268139

Ronda,

I'm so sorry that I did not have a chance to respond to the email you sent me regarding your new business proposition. I had a accident last Wednesday night that prevented my from replying to your email. jba/fl refers to it as "sorry,Ijustspilledabeeronmykeyboard.com" and that sums it up. I picked up a new keyboard Thursday morning, but have been busy building a website for massage services yesterday and working my contract job today. Barter is Great!

What I did this past Tuesday (ask a SS reported to be a slow payer of beyond 120 days to pay my fee in advance via PayPal) and what you are proposing are two entirely different things. I believe, in business, you need to stand up for yourself, but business is not a shake down unless you're in business with organized crime. I know some might argue the 'organized crime' reference when it comes to some lenders and past practices, but that aside, I'm sure you understand my analogy.

Ronda, it is never acceptable to hold a borrowers loan documents 'hostage' until payment is received. This has been discussed many times on this forum and the answer is always the same...it is wrong, it is punishing the wrong party in the transaction, it could be construed as coercion and it could get you into a big mess and a lot of trouble both professionally and monetarily if a lender or borrower were to push the point.

I'm sorry, your new concept is flawed, as you can see from the many responses you have received. I will send you some tips for collecting AND for getting paid upfront, but please, don't initiate your proposed actions. If you begin your new policies, you will end your career in this business, put many borrower's loans at risk and completely turn off any entity that would be willing to hire you for a closing in these lean times.

Ronda, think about it... Is it worth losing everything you have worked this hard to build?

Reply by Lee/AR on 10/24/08 8:49pm
Msg #268144

Best advice, Becca. I have some for you, too.

Keyboard Skin. Without it, I'd be wrecking 2 keyboards a week, I think.

Reply by sue_pa on 10/24/08 10:31pm
Msg #268157

...Ronda, think about it... Is it worth losing everything you have worked this hard to build?...

I could care less if Ronda loses everything she has worked for. I care about what I have worked for. I care what Ronda does because every time some IDIOT (yes Ronda, I am referring to you in this instance) comes up with a hair brained scheme like this it reflects on those of us who are business owners and who know how to run a business (and that includes managing receivables). EVERY person who closes a loan in the field independently reflects on each and every one of us across the country.

If your receivables are in that bad shape perhaps you should either hire a firm to manage them, screen your customers better, or don't be self employed.

All of us agree we should be paid 100% each and every time but the business world doesn't work that way. Yes, we are all sorry for everyone who has lost FOR YEARS from creeps in this business (Sylvia are you reading - remember our "friends" Randy & Teresa), from companies who made poor financial decisions, from those tumbling now as a result of the entire lending industry and from those who are out and out crooks. I have said it repeatedly - the number of companies that don't pay (not talking about not paying when someone thinks they should but those that never pay) are few and far between if someone were able to compile numbers (which I realize no one can) of loans closing by independent agents in the field.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/25/08 2:03am
Msg #268174

Sue is absolutely correct...

If you are going to run your own business or be self-employed you need to educate yourself about how to deal in the business world. I thought I knew plenty about small business management after being an office manager for 5+ years. HAH! After just a few basic business courses I was embarrassed to know that things it took me years to learn were covered, in depth, in basic business management! Some things I had to entirely re-learn, too.

I give Ronda credit for at least trying to brainstorm solutions to an increasing problem. Obviously, this is not a wise course of action we've all clearly explained why. It's actually good that we've all said as much, too.... so that others can see this and know right away it is a bad idea.

Becca had some great advice, and her recent experience of getting payment upfront *before* accepting the job is a great potential solution. We all know that not everyone would go for that, but it's another approach to the same problem. Asking for pre-payment before accepting work is a common business model in other industries. When I do virtual assistance work, I often require deposits or I work from a retainer. That's common for that industry, so I rarely have issues.

I know of one NSA here in California who issues her invoices with a term of 5% 10 Net 30 and any of the services she works with are aware of the terms before she accepts. She will not work with anyone who will not agree to her terms. She can afford to be picky.

Anyone with basic accounting skills already understands what that means. But basically if a company pays on her invoice within 10 days, they can deduct 5% of the total as a discount, otherwise, full payment is due within 30 days. She said that the 5% discount is nothing compared to money lost on the other end when trying to collect on invoices. She showed me how quite a few of the companies go out of their way to get her paid in order to get the discount because they think they're somehow getting a deal. Of course, those are the companies that keep calling her back, too -- and in turn she gives them "priority status". A $150 invoice, if paid within 10 days, will cost her $7.50... but she's getting paid almost immediately. It's a trade-off but it works well and she's not complaining too much about unpaid invoices.

It's all in how you play the business game.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 10/24/08 8:49pm
Msg #268143

Another lame idea Ronda.

Holding docs hostage and putting liens on customers houses are lame ideas and I'm at a loss at how you think these are great ideas. Everyone in business has bad debts that includes the IRS and they have the force of the government behind them and so will you and I. If you were to hold my docs hostage waiting on payment from your employer and I found out about it. I would have my shiftless brother in-law write you a nice letter from his law firm inviting you to explain why you chose this path to hurt his loving sister and his shiftless brother in-law me.

Reply by MW/VA on 10/24/08 8:55pm
Msg #268146

You've had plenty of feedback on this. I'm sorry to see you destroy your business & wish you better luck on your next venture.

Reply by Claudine Osborne on 10/24/08 10:04pm
Msg #268153

Good bye Rhonda n/m

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 10/24/08 10:55pm
Msg #268164

I hope you have plenty of insurance ...

You'll pull this stunt only once or twice ....... I have seen someone else pull it, the BO lost the lock. It wasn't pretty for the notary ....

Reply by PAW on 10/25/08 9:06am
Msg #268190

Re: I hope you have plenty of insurance ... It won't help

Insurance would probably be denied since the act was a "willful" negligent act of misconduct, with malice and forethought.

Reply by Ronda Roaring on 10/25/08 2:04pm
Msg #268206

Re: I hope you have plenty of insurance ... It won't help

PAW, you're reply is cleaverest of all. There is no malice . If a company doesn't like my policy, they don't have to hire me. Period.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/25/08 4:30pm
Msg #268217

No offense, Ronda...but nobody WILL hire you if you pull

that kind of stunt, or even threaten to do so. I hope you have another means of income, because this one will dry right up with that policy.

Reply by MW/VA on 10/25/08 6:14pm
Msg #268225

Re: I hope you have plenty of insurance ... It won't help

You might take heed to some of what has been said. IMO, holding the docs "hostage" isn't legal or ethical. Besides the loss of business, IMO you could lose your commission for misconduct. You also leave yourself wide-open to a major lawsuit. It's the notaries greatest risk to do something that will hold up funding of a loan.
You're not the only one that came up with this as a desperate attempt at collection. There are some who wanted to attach a lien to the borrowers property or demand payment from the borrower at signing.
This is a business & there is some risk involved.
You made it clear that you feel totally "justified" in doing this. It might have been a good idea to get some feedback before you made that move.
This is a really, really bad idea. You should be grateful for the guidance.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 10/25/08 8:20pm
Msg #268231

Marilynn she did want to attach liens to the borrowers

property.Using the advice of some attorney from the EFS bankruptcy, I believe.

Reply by MW/VA on 10/26/08 8:50am
Msg #268257

Re: Marilynn she did want to attach liens to the borrowers

IMO some people need to get out of the notary biz & into the "repo" biz, where "strong arm" tactics are common. Otherwise, this kind of thing hurts everyone in the industry.