Posted by Smug/Fl on 10/22/08 10:43pm
Msg #267992

ID Question

Went to a closing today, one of the borrowers ID had expired by 9 days, He is going to get a new one tomorrow. Told them I had to see new ID. He is getting one in morning. Wondering if I could have had them sign dox, then get copy of new D/L in morning or do they have to sign all the dox that day w/new D/L Any thoughts on this

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/22/08 11:25pm
Msg #267994

Well, what the Florida ID rules? This seems to me to be something that any FL notary should know off the top of their head.

Not that it helps you much, but in California, an expired ID is perfectly acceptable provided it was issued in the previous 5 years.

Alternatively, there is always the use of credible witnesses.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 10/22/08 11:26pm
Msg #267995

I realize that some states are stricter than others, but this makes no sense to me. 9 days ago you could ID him, but you can't now because the ID expired. What happened - did he stop being who he was and become someone else in the past two weeks? You've got a photo ID, he's standing in front of you, everything matches, but the ID expired 9 days ago - so now, it's not really him?

This is not meant as a slam against you personally - you've gotta do what your state law tells you to do - but I'm glad I live in a state that allows us to use some common sense.

Reply by jojo_MN on 10/22/08 11:48pm
Msg #267996

Some companies require that it can't be expired even one day; others will go by whatever the state law allows you to do. Ask the SS, TC or lender contact how they want you to procede.

Reply by sue_pa on 10/23/08 6:27am
Msg #268005

...but this makes no sense to me. 9 days ago you could ID him, but you can't now because the ID expired. What happened - did he stop being who he was and become someone else in the past two weeks? You've got a photo ID, he's standing in front of you, everything matches, but the ID expired 9 days ago - so now, it's not really him?...

Funny but that's exactly the way it is in PA and your phrasing is almost exactly the way it used to be put to us. Until I believe 5 years ago, we could id signers any way we were comfortable with. At our state sponsored seminars, when I asked about expired ids (after becoming paranoid when I started reading these boards) his response was actually along the lines of we could care less if they are permitted to drive, we are iding them. Then came our changes and now the id may not be expired by even one day. We do have an easy alternative - we can use that expired id (with the photo) for our own comfort level - we can take their ss card to fulfill the state's requirements. Funny but it seems when changing the laws they failed to ask anyone in the field what type situations we run into daily - some situations occur over and over and over ...

Reply by MikeC/NY on 10/23/08 4:39pm
Msg #268046

"We do have an easy alternative - we can use that expired id (with the photo) for our own comfort level - we can take their ss card to fulfill the state's requirements."

The state accepts an SS card as proof of ID? Don't they have "Not to be used for ID" printed right on them?

"Funny but it seems when changing the laws they failed to ask anyone in the field what type situations we run into daily - some situations occur over and over and over ..."

That seems to be the way it's always done in the legislatures - ready, fire, aim.

Reply by rengel/CA on 10/23/08 11:35am
Msg #268028

Playing the devil's advocate here, when do you draw the line for expired ID? ten days, one hundred days, 2 yrs? No matter what point you draw the line, there will always be the point at which yesterday you could ID him and today you can't.

But it does look like we all agree that we have to abide by our State's law.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 10/23/08 4:34pm
Msg #268045

Here in NY, the only requirement is "satisfactory evidence", which pretty much leaves it up to the notary to find his/her own comfort level. I'm comfortable accepting an expired license as long as the photo and name match the person presenting it and I'm reasonably certain it's the same person - which are the same criteria I use for an unexpired license...

NY licenses don't always have the driver's first name, so that can be a problem at times.

Reply by TacomaBoy on 10/24/08 5:29pm
Msg #268130

Hmmmmm . . . This seems more like a company / client policy issue more than a legal issue. Some title / escrow / attorney offices are super picky about such matters. The person has not expired just his / her ability to legally drive an automobile. How about asking for back-up I.D. when this happens? Ever seen a phony driver's license? It's up to you, the notary public, to make certain that the person signing doc's is the real deal.

Reply by hp/MD on 10/23/08 12:50am
Msg #267999

Did you ask if he has a valid passport, other gov. ID?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/23/08 4:50am
Msg #268000

Per Section 117.05 of the FL Statutes (and per the SOS recently) identification which is current or has been issued within the past five years is acceptable.

Reply by jba/fl on 10/23/08 5:28am
Msg #268002

ID's here good for 6 years, so not issued in past 5. But for 9 days, I think I would have accepted since I have been known to renew mine a few days late by mail and therefore connect with the problem first hand.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/23/08 5:32am
Msg #268003

I only quote the Statutes - don't write 'em...:) n/m

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/23/08 5:34am
Msg #268004

Here it is...in part relative to DL's

2. Reasonable reliance on the presentation to the notary public of any one of the following forms of identification, if the document is current or has been issued within the past 5 years and bears a serial or other identifying number:

a. A Florida identification card or driver's license issued by the public agency authorized to issue driver's licenses;

Reply by RickinVA on 10/23/08 10:25am
Msg #268021

Re: Here it is...in part relative to DL's

Hmm--Based on this, it would appear that a current D/L is legal, even
if it was issued over 5 years ago. They way I read some of these posts,
they are saying a D/L over 5 years is not acceptable. Why isn't it?
"...if the document is current or has been issued within the past 5 years"
OR being the operative word I'm seeing.

Rick

Reply by PAW on 10/23/08 8:47am
Msg #268008

It doesn't make any difference if the laws make sense or not. It is the law and you must follow the law. That is, in this case, if the license was issued no later than 5 years ago, it could have been used. Since licenses here typically are issued for 6 years at a time (with certain exceptions) it probably doesn't meet the conditioned allowed. (Note: Effective October 1, 2008, Florida Class E driver licenses will be valid for 8 years except for customers 80 and older. See http://www.flhsmv.gov/ddl/CommunityUpdate.pdf for more information.)

As for having the borrower sign today and get a new license tomorrow, if you do that, you are fraudulently preparing your notarial certificates. Again, it doesn't matter whether you agree with the way the law reads, you must abide by it. Period. If you don't like, change it using the system.

Also, it was mentioned that you could use a credible witness. That is true if the witness knows both you and borrower. The use of two credible witnesses is not applicable in this situation, as stated by the FL Secretary of State and Governor's Notary Section. (See page 33 of the Governor's Reference Manual for Notaries, 2001)

Reply by Smug/Fl on 10/23/08 9:18am
Msg #268012

Wow rough group this morning. Thanks for all you inputs. I did know about the 5 year rule here in Fl. And was just wondering what others would have done. All is taken care of this morning. Thanks for all your inputs. I enjoy this site and all the good info on it.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/23/08 10:47am
Msg #268024

"This morning?" Hee hee. n/m

Reply by sue_pa on 10/23/08 11:01am
Msg #268025

Re: "This morning?" Hee hee.

I know, I started to respond earlier but thought I'd be 'nice'.

So Smug, the question that is burning in our minds -- Did you complete the loan this morning with today's date and id obtained today or did you complete the loan yesterday for an individual with unacceptable id - having acceptable id on the 23rd, doesn't mean you can notarize on the 22nd !! What would have happened if a cement truck ran over your signer this morning ?!?! Or ... maybe a third option you haven't divulged !!

Reply by jba/fl on 10/23/08 11:48am
Msg #268029

Ok, I've been chastised, rightly so. Haven't had it happen to me before, so all conjecture on my part anyway. Sue made excellent point re: cement truck, as did PAW & LindaH.

Here is another possible solution: if bor. is out of date, has computer, can go online and renew immediately, printing receipt that renewal is accepted. This would be the same as that blue sticker placed on back of old id to make it current.

Reply by Linda Spanski on 10/23/08 12:06pm
Msg #268030

<<Per Section 117.05 of the FL Statutes (and per the SOS recently) identification which is current or has been issued within the past five years is acceptable.>>

The way I read this (sorry, PAW) is that if the identification is CURRENT even if it was issued more than 5 years ago, it is valid.

Reply by PAW on 10/23/08 2:32pm
Msg #268042

That is true. But the original post said "borrowers ID had expired by 9 days", therefore it wasn't current. If it hadn't expired, then it would be legal, even if issued 20 years ago!

Apparently, you read my response out of context of the original post, which I clarified when I stated, "... **in this case**, if the license was issued no later than 5 years ago, it could have been used."

Reply by MistarellaFL on 10/23/08 12:07pm
Msg #268031

Julie Julie Julie

<<This would be the same as that blue sticker placed on back of old id to make it current.>>

They don't issue the blue stickers any longer...they actually issue a new license with your same ole photo from 6 years ago, LOL

Reply by jba/fl on 10/23/08 12:11pm
Msg #268032

Misty, Misty, Misty

They can only reissue IF you have a new license and they have the photo on file. I have a 'forever young' photo on mine w/blue stickers as I only renew online. One day they may tell me to come in, but until then, I like my photo! Hah!

Reply by MistarellaFL on 10/23/08 12:15pm
Msg #268033

Brat, brat, brat.

Wish I had my forever young photo....

Reply by jba/fl on 10/23/08 12:19pm
Msg #268034

ROFLMAO!!! n/m

Reply by LKT/CA on 10/23/08 12:24pm
Msg #268037

<<<What happened - did he stop being who he was and become someone else in the past two weeks? You've got a photo ID, he's standing in front of you, everything matches, but the ID expired 9 days ago - so now, it's not really him?>>>

I agree with PAW, the law is the law and we must follow it. But another perspective is that, yes, it's not really him....in the sense that a lot could have changed since he first got the license. Physical description could have changed dramatically - lost or gained weight, dyed hair or gone completely gray, cosmetic surgery, new address. Even men change their names sometimes. People who lose or gain a significant amount of weight (100 lbs.) look totally different....sometimes being almost unrecognizable.

Don't know about Florida or other states, but in CA, it used to be that if your driving record stayed cleaned, you could renew license by mail and the last picture you took would be on the new license. That happened to me for years. Now, I cannot renew by mail, have to go in every 5 years for a new photo. JMHO

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/23/08 12:40pm
Msg #268038

I renewed my CA DL last year just by paying the fees online. They sent me a new card with my photo from 2002. I was okay with that. LOL

I figure if the DMV is going to make it so that I can avoid waiting in line at their office... I welcome it.

Reply by LKT/CA on 10/23/08 3:48pm
Msg #268043

I've to go in the last 2 times I renewed to take a new picture. Before that, I could renew by mail.
Next time, I'll protest (like that'll do any good <G>.

Reply by John_NorCal on 10/23/08 6:59pm
Msg #268060

I heard that.......

they are going to start digitally enhancing the photos to approximate the true age of the holder.


















jk :-)

Reply by MikeC/NY on 10/23/08 4:46pm
Msg #268047

"I agree with PAW, the law is the law and we must follow it."

Absolutely - I said that we wach have to follow state law.

"But another perspective is that, yes, it's not really him....in the sense that a lot could have changed since he first got the license. Physical description could have changed dramatically - lost or gained weight, dyed hair or gone completely gray, cosmetic surgery, new address. Even men change their names sometimes. People who lose or gain a significant amount of weight (100 lbs.) look totally different....sometimes being almost unrecognizable."

Same could be true for a current license, no? Obviously, if the person presenting the ID doesn't look anything like the photo on the ID, it doesn't matter whether the ID is current or expired.