Posted by The Notary National Signers on 10/20/08 11:00am
Msg #267783
NEED FEEDBACK ON PRECLOSING SERVICES
Hello Everyone:
I am hoping to get some input from notaries on preclosing services. First, let's explain what we mean by PRECLOSING. We have been approached by various lenders that do FHA loans. The preclosing disclosures for these type loans are around 35 pages. NOTHING needs to be notarized. However, the documents can be confusing to the borrower - even in just figuring out where to sign. Also, in addition to signing these disclosures, borrowers need to provide certain documentation to get loan processed - copies of license, SS card, paystub etc. The notary would be expected to collect this information.
What we want to know is what would be a fair price to get disclosures signed & collect documents? Please keep in mind, that the bulk of these Preclosings would lead to actual closings, where the same notary would be used if he/she was available.
Also, we are trying to ascertain whether the bulk of notaries have the ability to scan & send these docs back as originals are not necessary & could be placed in regular mail or destroyed? Or, whether they can be faxed back? Or, if they would, in fact, have to be sent as hard copies?
Thank you in advance for your input.
Janine
NNS
| Reply by Pete/MD on 10/20/08 11:21am
Msg #267784
I charge $75 and all the docs get overnighted right back to the TC.
| Reply by Claudine Osborne on 10/20/08 11:29am
Msg #267785
Janine, Wouldn't the lender want the originals sent back, just as with a closing? As for scanning and faxing back these documents. I believe in this day, age and nature of our business that anyone serious about closing would have the ability to scan etc. My fees would be slightly lower for preclosures. We may not notarize but we are still checking IDs and collecting needed documents. We are driving etc and using our resources.
| Reply by MW/VA on 10/20/08 11:37am
Msg #267786
Are the docs sent to the applicants ahead of time or is it edocs? I would figure at least $65 w/faxbacks.
| Reply by The Notary National Signers on 10/20/08 11:45am
Msg #267789
It would be edocs.
| Reply by MW/VA on 10/20/08 12:02pm
Msg #267792
Need to make sure they have their list of required documentation well ahead of appt. & notary confirms that they have everything ready when the appt. is set.
| Reply by Lee/AR on 10/20/08 11:39am
Msg #267787
Appreciate your detailing the specifics of the job. I'd say above poster has it right (exclusive of travel). These may not SEEM like much, but printing & then scanning/faxing docs does take time. Also, my (sad) experience is that these folks do NOT have needed documentation ready and a lot of (the notary's) time is wasted waiting for them to locate what's needed or make the copies. There is also a 'realization' factor--when they see something in print, they might decide not to do it. Then what?
| Reply by Dorothy_MI on 10/20/08 12:08pm
Msg #267794
Only once in the past 5 years
that I have been accepting these assignments (only if I have nothing else schedule because they can take as long as a signing) have I had them convert into an actual loan signing. $75 - $90 is about the going rate that I've been offered.
| Reply by Negrete on 10/20/08 12:09pm
Msg #267795
This is known as RESPA paperwork. And also what if the borrower decides not to sign, do you still pay full fee ?
| Reply by The Notary National Signers on 10/20/08 1:11pm
Msg #267810
Of course. If you went out, you should be paid. We are just really trying to se what going rate is
| Reply by PA_Notary_II on 10/20/08 6:45pm
Msg #267838
I have done several of these for an out of state company. They pay $150 for the RESPAs and $150 for the close. Never a problem and always pays on time. All are reverse mortgages. I hope they keep calling and calling and calling....I love it.
| Reply by PAW on 10/20/08 12:12pm
Msg #267796
>>> However, the documents can be confusing to the borrower - even in just figuring out where to sign. Also, in addition to signing these disclosures, borrowers need to provide certain documentation to get loan processed - copies of license, SS card, paystub etc. The notary would be expected to collect this information. <<<
The way I'm reading this, it is more than just collecting documents. In Florida, providing and collecting any information for the purpose of obtaining a loan may be construed as "origination" and therefore, would require a broker's license or be an employee (as in W-2) of the lender or a Broker Business.
If I'm wrong, then ignore the above.
| Reply by davidK/CA on 10/20/08 12:46pm
Msg #267800
IMHO this may be a lot of work for little money
How many times have you the NSA specifically asked that a borrower have a photocopy of their driver license made and ready before the signing will take place only to find out when you get to the signing that there is no such photocopy ready? In my experience, it occurs way too many times, perhaps as much as 1/3 of the time. No, my carrying a camera or a copy machine is not a solution to the problem of borrowers not doing what they agreed to do.
So what leads anyone to think that the borrower will assemble and photocopy in advance the required ID, their insurance declaration, their tax returns for the last three years, their SS card (how many people actually know where that little paper card is?), their last three months pay stubs, bank statement, etc, etc. etc., all of which have been asked for several times (even in writing) in advance by the broker, yet somehow the borrower either ignores, misunderstands or forgets to assemble these records that under the lending situation today likely must be in the brokers hands of there will be no deal.
And the poor NSA, "failing" to obtain these documents will then have to fight to get paid even a printing and/or trip fee because the application is deemed incomplete.
I think I will pass on this wonderful opportunity to waste my time and money.
| Reply by jojo_MN on 10/20/08 12:53pm
Msg #267802
I have been doing these for over a year now. These signings actually tale longer than the loan itself. Most of the time, the borrowers don't have the required docs that we need to pick up when I get there, even though I went through great deltail what I needed to pick up.
There tends to be many questions, which I always stress to the customer that these are the docs that give the lender permission to procede with the loan. It is not a final approval and the terms of the loan can change, but would be disclosed to them prior to closing.
I always charge my normal minimum for closings and require full payment regardless if the loan goes through. I did my job---I get paid.
| Reply by HrdwrkrVA on 10/20/08 1:12pm
Msg #267811
That's a MAJOR talking point - THE TIME!!! None of the paperwork filled out (they want borrower to fill in in their handwriting) & one co., after low-balling me, had the audacity to say their fee includes my sending docs back @ MY COST!!!!!! See my post on PremierLending Services. I think I took a wrong turn at Pluto & landed on the Bizarro World!!
| Reply by sue_pa on 10/20/08 2:09pm
Msg #267815
random responses to your statements
1. around 35 pages - I've never seen 35 pages. Did one of the smallest I've ever seen last week - 42 pages - I've seen them well upwards of 100 pages also (times 2). I'm guessing 50ish is more the norm.
2. Why did you emphasize NOTHING gets notarized? Actually, that is a detriment due to our self employment tax. Number of notarizations doesn't calculate into our expenses - only to our mumble/grumble factor to ourselves when we've 20ish pages to notarize.
3. I've never seen any that are any more confusing than the actual loan docs on where to sign - sign on the signature line -it's not that tough if you've got functioning brain cells.
4. Here is a kicker - the BORROWERS need to provide certain documentation. We COLLECT this information - we do not sit and wait while they COLLECT it on our time - if it's ready, I send it back - if they don't have it, they will contact their LO to get return instructions. I had a man last week and he told me he had everything he needed - he had about 1/2 the documents - he had meticulous notes of what his LO told him - if LO doesn't do his job properly, why should I add his job duties to mine? I also will not spend 10-15 minutes on the phone prior to an appt. going down a list of what they need (that will ALWAYS bring about questions as to why, what if, etc) to supply.
5. What does the 'preclosing' have to do with the 'actual closing'? I'll answer, NOTHING. Percentage wise it just doesn't pan out. What if we're booked when the actual closing order comes in? Are you going to permit us to schedule the actual closing per our schedule? (rhetorical question) Again, they have NOTHING to do with each other so I've got no idea why you even mention it - unless you think we are dummies and will reduce the fee on the first order in hopes of obtaining the second order.
6. Why in the world do you (or others I've seen post here) think it would be OUR responsibility to make these copies? These people are adults and can and should do so ahead of time. I personally will not be responsible for someone else's responsibilities - why in the world would I invest in and carry around a copier or a scanner - they are ADULTS - they are out and about every day - they can make them at work, copy them at home or stop somewhere. Someone said in another thread something along the lines of ... anyone serious about this business has the ability to fax, scan ... Hogwash. I see posts EVERY day where people complain of declining fees. Why in the world would you take on more responsibility, especially responsibility requiring an equipment expense (doesn't matter if you already own the equipment, someone using it MUST pay for it if you are running a business) for a random order here and there?
7. Fee is $100-$150 - THESE TAKE AS LONG AS THE ACTUAL CLOSING. If anyone says they don't, they've got a great broker or they haven't completed very many of these type orders.
Had one last week - we were moving along - 3 pages to go and he throws the pen down. GFE shows payment $300 more than he was quoted. I can see that the P&I is about $300 less than the total payment. I ask if perhaps that is the difference. Nope, certainly not, positively not. He calls and LO isn't in but another gets on the phone. He jabbers to this guy for 1/2 hour about stuff that has nothing to do with the price of beans, rice, nor these figures. One of the differences pointed out to him was his HO insurance. I'm bored sitting there doodling so I look at his HO policy (which he had copied for me). I look at the premium, divide it by 12 and glance over at the GFE. I naturally keep my mouth shut but (forget the exact number) but I believe it was about a $3 difference ... only $297 TO GO !!!
Why shouldn't we be paid a fair fee for these? In this instance, we are providing (hopefully) a very valuable service being a courier for the lender/broker: Paraphrased from a web site on the reason someone should utilize this service ...
Reduce lender shopping by quickly initiating the loan and title work process. Additionally, the borrower becomes vested in pursuing the transaction...
| Reply by Negrete on 10/20/08 2:32pm
Msg #267816
So very well put Sue_pa n/m
| Reply by jba/fl on 10/20/08 3:57pm
Msg #267818
Re: random responses to your statements
I totally agree. Did a couple in the past - just because there are no notarizations doesn't mean we don't do anything. These are disorganized to the hilt, and I don't like the sword that deeply in my chest.
| Reply by Patricia Manatt on 10/20/08 4:52pm
Msg #267823
Re: random responses to your statements
My thoughts exactly, Sue. I couldn't have said it any better. Thanks for speaking up!
| Reply by Hasina Baker on 10/20/08 5:40pm
Msg #267830
Re: random responses to your statements
You have explained it very well and I agree with you completely. Thanks Sue. I guess we are all 100% behind what Sue just explained.
| Reply by HrdwrkrVA on 10/20/08 7:41pm
Msg #267845
Re: random responses to your statements
Re #6 - making copies: I couldn't agree w/ u more on this one. This is one of the MOST important transactions of a person's life. People take it sooooooooo casually - I just tell them: "This WILL/MAY hold up your loan-processing; Your LO can tell where you need to fax your ID". If I do my job & tell u when I'm confirming the appt., the ball's in your court. It would help if ALL LO's stressed this to their clients. Sometimes I get 15 call from the LO, the SS, & the title co, but no one (except me) bothers to tell the BO! This is for regular loans - I haven't done that many pre-closures.
| Reply by MichiganAl on 10/20/08 7:44pm
Msg #267846
I read the original post and had plenty to say
Then I read Sue's post. Nothing more to say.
| Reply by The Notary National Signers on 10/21/08 12:09pm
Msg #267878
Re: random responses to your statements
First of all, no one called anyone a "dummy". I am totally confused by the tone of your response or at least how it came across to me. *I asked for input.* The docs I was talking about are 35 pages long bottom line. I'm not sure what goes on with other companies & it is not really my concern. I emphasized that NOTHING was to be notarized, because there are no docs are to be notarized. As far as collecting the documents, I put that in there because that is what the Lender requested & again, i was looking to be as clear as possible so that the feedback I received would be accurate. I simply provided facts to explain what a "pre-closing" was in my case as I am sure it differs depending on the company. Furthermore, no one said you shouldn't be paid a fair fee. On the contrary, I was requesting information to determine what was considered fair. I have never used this site before and thought it would be a helpful venue and I could go straight to the source (so to speak). I am grateful for your information; however, to me it seems very angry, confrontational and unnecessary. I also think that you have jumped to very many conclusions, which may be based on past experience but I think it is inappropriate to make assumptions like that. Just my opinion
Janine
| Reply by sue_pa on 10/21/08 5:00pm
Msg #267899
amazing
This company is, in my opinion, a low baller regarding fees. Your 'whatever' Bob, has consistently tried to pound it into unknowing people's minds that $90 is a decent fee for a full e-doc refi - he also has repeatedly stated something along the lines that it's the industry standard.
So, when reading your post, there were SO many things that have NOTHING to do with the way we price ourselves - seemed to me there was way too much smoke and mirrors.
Giving a true idea to my peers of what I've experienced in the field for years is important to me - not from one or two companies, but from too many to count. I understand you will receive plenty of people to accept these orders at the $50 or $65 you will eventually determine is ... the industry standard. Good for you, good for them. If they are 35 pages, the borrowers have all their docs copied and they know ahead of time what they are going to sign, good for everyone ... my experience, which I was posting about, indicates these are not going to happen this way.
Angry, no, just pointing out the other side. Confrontational, take it any way you want. Unnecessary, then why did you ask?
| Reply by The Notary National Signers on 10/22/08 9:19am
Msg #267923
Re: amazing
"there were SO many things that have NOTHING to do with the way we price ourselves "
Again, my post was to be as clear as possible about what was entailed. How you price yourself and determine your fee is subjective and would differ from person to person. I truly think that you need to realize you are one person and your opinion is simply YOUR opinion. Maybe the information I posted was not useful to you, but maybe it was to others and, I'd rather err on the side of too much info than not enough. How's that for smoke & mirrors?
You are entitled to your opinion on fees and what is a low ball fee, decent fee or industry standard but this is irrelevant to my post. You should re-read the post. It asked for feedback. It didn't dictate anything or try to pound anything into unknowing minds. Simply a request for information. Dummies & unknowing? You really have a high opinion of the people you call your peers!
I strongly suggest you re-read your post as well. Apparently, you have had some bad experiences and I gained by you sharing them. These are things I will look out for (not having docs, licenses etc) However, you may not realize how you come across. You could have made the same points and shared the same experiences in a better manner - more conducive to discussion and more inviting of others to share their insights or ask follow up quetions to your post. Isn't that the pint of having such a forum? Instead, you chose to go off on what I took as a personal tirade and that, to me, came across as angry and confrontational, which I felt was unnecessary. If you really feel this negatively, maybe you should look into doing something else. Life is too way short.
| Reply by sue_pa on 10/22/08 7:50pm
Msg #267975
Re: amazing
it really is sad ... you have NO clue ...
| Reply by Notary/Guy on 10/20/08 6:07pm
Msg #267834
This is a Reverse Mortgage
| Reply by Ralph Wedertz on 10/20/08 7:32pm
Msg #267843
Sue pretty well described it. I've quit doing these things, because the company (lies?) about the number of pages, I am supposed to sit there and describe what the borrower is signing, the loan officers do not brief the borrowers, and of they do, the borrower forgets 50% of what was explained. They NEVER have the items that we are supposed to "collect," and they expect me to wait around while they grub around looking for papers. Then after all is said and done, and you send the docs back, you won't get paid (i.e., Closing Quest in Nashville). The companies assigning these things think that since it is "only a few pages" that you have no expenses. You teleport there, whisk through the signing and teleport home again. Sure. These things are time-wasters and money-losers, for what they want to pay.
| Reply by Ronda Roaring on 10/20/08 8:02pm
Msg #267848
We call them RESPA docs around here, and I've done a number of them. I charge the same trip fee and slightly less for the copy fee as the borrowers still get a copy of the docs. The originals have always gone back to either the lender or the title company.
There have been times when the title company or SS has tried to negotiate a lower fee by saying that they will call me to do the final closing, but what if the borrower doesn't get the loan or what if I'm not available to do the final closing? I don't negotiate lower fees.
| Reply by SharonMN on 10/21/08 6:05pm
Msg #267901
My point of view is that the loan originator is well paid for originating the loan - so they need to help the borrowers with this stuff and not foist it off on a notary. Send a package to the borrower with arrows where to sign and schedule a phone appointment to help them fill it out if needed.
Some people believe this can be considered an activity that needs a loan originator license in certain states, especially if the notary is the only person the borrower ever talks to.
| Reply by The Notary National Signers on 10/22/08 9:22am
Msg #267924
Good point
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